The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: sabrina on December 17, 2014, 05:10:03 pm
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Poor girl has come into season, she is 10 months old. Both my male dogs have been done so no risk of pups. I asked the vet a couple of months ago if she could be spayed but he was not keen saying he prefers to let them have the first season. I have heard of it been done before this and wonder is it just down to the vet on their preference or does it cause problems later on.
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I have heard that neutering before the first season may increase the risk of urinary incontinence. Not sure how true this is. Also in larger breeds, like our retrievers, they like to let them have longer time to 'do their growing' before neutering.
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It certainly can cause hormonal problems such as urinary incontinence. Best to let them have at least one season, it doesn't last long and though a bit inconvenient is soon over.
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I had two stray bitch pups spayed before their first seasons. The vet explained that it's a harder job before they've had a season, as all the bits are smaller. He also said he might not have agreed to do it had it been an owner he didn't know and trust, as they can be even more prone to becoming overweight if spayed so early.
I don't know whether it's even possible or advisable to do it now that she's actually on heat?
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My vet likes to do them before they have their first season. His reasoning is that it reduces the risk of mamary cancers as they age. He says the increased risk of urinary incontinence can be controlled with drugs. One is life threatening the other isnt.
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At one time spaying from 5months was the advice. The younger it is done the lower the risk of mammary tumours. But there have been other problems found with this over time. Urinary incontinence is one. Also it can interfere with bone and joint development, especially larger breeds. They are more prone to cruciate disease and other joint problems. Something to do with the hormones helping with balance of elements such as calcium. It can also affect behaviour development. Now the advice is to wait until the dog is fully grown so smaller breeds will be ready to Spey or castrate at a younger age than large breeds due to faster development. But neuter before 2years greatly reduces the risks of other problems developing such as mammary tumours. ( yes, the advise is for both male and female neutering).
I haven't heard any problem with weight gain and age of neutering. Both male and female can put on weight more easily once neutered but this can easily be controlled by diet.
The APBC do a sheet of advice as to the pros and cons of neutering. I'll try to find it and post.
As with everything you are better to speak to a vet who has the up to date advice on this and can discuss your own situation.
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For the female :-http://www.apbc.org.uk/system/files/private/summary_sheet_of_spaying_risks_and_benefits_bitch.pdf (http://www.apbc.org.uk/system/files/private/summary_sheet_of_spaying_risks_and_benefits_bitch.pdf)
For the male:-
http://www.apbc.org.uk/system/files/private/summary_sheet_of_castration_risks_and_benefits.pdf (http://www.apbc.org.uk/system/files/private/summary_sheet_of_castration_risks_and_benefits.pdf)
Note that in both cases the majority of dogs and bitches can be neutered without any health problems once fully grown and stop the risk of unwanted puppies :thumbsup:
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I had my German Shepherds spayed age 3 & 4 years old after I had finished showing them. The younger one ended up with urinary incontinence. I will book her in Feb/March and that will be that. last thing I need is puppies. Just as well we are in the middle of nowhere and the dogs nearby are bitches.
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Reading that info sheet, Mammyshaz, it does say that early spaying of large breeds is not advised. In particular, those breeds which are prone to osteosarcoma and/or joint problems. And also to be avoided in dogs which will be very active - canicross, agility, etc, and presumeably working dogs too.
Our Veni, one of the pair that was spayed before their first season, was a total mongrel but similar size and shape to a Doberman. We had her put to sleep, aged 10, when she developed a tumour in her elbow. :'( She had had painful joints from about 3 years old, with no medical reason ever having been found. We had to give her several short walks a day, rather than one big one, and mainly walks where she would amble rather than run about. If we were doing a long walk, and/or asking her to be very active - running and jumping - then we had to make sure she had a good warm up before being very energetic, and warm down after. (She was a very happy, boisterous and playful dog in general, but did get stiff and sore if we didn't heed this advice.)
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Oh Sally :hug:
The problems just weren't known in years past. When I was a kid people just didn't get their dogs neutered. Over the last 20 years more and more data has been gathered as more dogs have been routinely 'done'.
American vets neuter at 12 weeks still :( :rant: and APBC aren't impressed. Especially where behaviour development is concerned. Our main concern are the health implications. Thankfully more and more vets are becoming aware of the problems associated with early neutering :thumbsup: it's just getting the balance right with individual situations.
Our little Heidi was neutered before her first season because we had an entire male GSD who we wanted to mature and work. She is 8 years now and no problems seem :fc:
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Bitches should never be spayed before their first season - causes all sorts of health problems. Some vets will do it but most responsible ones who value their clients and their pets health will advise leaving it until after the first season. Pups are still growing up to a couple of years and to be honest I never spay my bitches till they are around 6 or 7 unless I have no intention whatsoever of breeding with them - and even then i wait till they're about 2 - in other words after the second season so a pattern can be assessed.
Also they should be spayed between seasons when the hormone levels are lowest - preferably on average three months after the previous season.
Hope that helps.
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His reasoning is that it reduces the risk of mamary cancers
Ask your vet to check recent studies - this is no longer accepted.
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His reasoning is that it reduces the risk of mamary cancers
Ask your vet to check recent studies - this is no longer accepted.
It is still accepted. As I said, each case should be assessed, some situations require a bitch spayed early. The health implications for and against need weighed up and unwanted litters seriously considered. In our practice we spey before first season as not all owners are responsible enough to keep the bitches in, many are latchkey dogs, ie out on the streets most of the day it's better they are spayed before the season when we can book them and phone to remind owners while the novelty of a young dog is still there and they are willing to bring them in. Once they are adult the litters start and we don't see the dogs until there is a serious health problem.
Unless you are a responsible breeder who hopes to have a litter, such as yourself, Doganjo, I would always advise spaying before second season. The risk of mammary tumours and infections such as pyometra are much higher and increase year on year after the second season. Unfortunately we operate on pyometras weekly, another reason we try to spay asap from 6 months. This isn't the norm in private veterinary practices but due to the nature of our work is often the best for the dog in our practice.
Three are other situations such as farm dogs or hunting kennels where the bitch is spayed due to entire males living together with the females. This is why all cases should be discussed with the vet and the best age decided. It's not as easy as a straight line.
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http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/02/17/dangers-of-early-pet-spaying-or-neutering.aspx (http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2011/02/17/dangers-of-early-pet-spaying-or-neutering.aspx)
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf (http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf)
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/16_2/features/risks-benefits-spay-neuter-your-dog_20685-1.html (http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/16_2/features/risks-benefits-spay-neuter-your-dog_20685-1.html)
http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf (http://www.caninesports.com/uploads/1/5/3/1/15319800/spay_neuter_considerations_2013.pdf)
Within 5 minutes I found these papers, and I'm not a vet - admittedly mostly American, but if my Scottish vet can have read these and other papers in the Uk and believe that it is inadvisable to spay early in most cases then I would expect others to at least do the research.
Vets should be strongly advising their clients to take proper care of their bitches not operating on them to prevent lack of care on their part.
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Our vets advice would be to neuter bitches after first or second season for the reasons I gave in my first posting which has been more or less echoed by others.
However, while I totally agree that vets should stress to clients their responsibilities regarding the care of young bitches prior to neutering, it is not always that easy as Mammyshaz states.
I have spoken to two people recently both of which had litters of collies. They were farmers and neighbours. First person had an unexpected litter. Born in the barn where all farm collies were kept. Found in the morning. Two pups alive, other three killed by other collies. Surviving pups okay but bitch in 'shock'. Second person. Another litter on the way. Not planned. Bitch having second litter in as many years. First litter unplanned .... bitch caught when it was her first season. I express 'concern'. Reply .... she may as well have pups she is no good for working. Sire of pups..... errr.... not known. Could be other collie .... questionable temperament or GSD. GSD is very aggressive and must be kept chained even in the yard.
Just an example to perhaps show that early neutering, though of course not the ideal and of course we would like everyone to listen and do the very best by their dogs, may possibly be the best course of action in some cases ...... for bitch and poor puppies.
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Just an example to perhaps show that early neutering, though of course not the ideal and of course we would like everyone to listen and do the very best by their dogs, may possibly be the best course of action in some cases ...... for bitch and poor puppies.
And you really honestly think people like that will spend £200 having their bitch spayed at any time whether before or after the first season? I do NOT think so! They should be reported for cruelty!
:rant: :rant: :rant:
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Possibly not Doganjo but dogs in Wales can be neutered free through the Dog Trust scheme if you have a CPH number. I know from chatting with the vet that they encourage people to take this up ..... and the vets do have contact with a lot of the farmers because of livestock so even if the bitch is never taken to the vet they are sometimes aware of dogs on the farm.
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My vet likes to do them before they have their first season. His reasoning is that it reduces the risk of mamary cancers as they age. He says the increased risk of urinary incontinence can be controlled with drugs. One is life threatening the other isnt.
I find it amazing what suffering pet owners are prepared to let their animals endure "because they love them too much to put them down and they just want them to pass away peacefully" and yet (IME) in most situations as soon as an animal becomes incontinent and a carpet is fouled PTS is requested, even demanded - so I would argue that urinary incontinence is equally as life threatening as mammary cancer in a round about way!
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Possibly not Doganjo but dogs in Wales can be neutered free through the Dog Trust scheme if you have a CPH number. I know from chatting with the vet that they encourage people to take this up ..... and the vets do have contact with a lot of the farmers because of livestock so even if the bitch is never taken to the vet they are sometimes aware of dogs on the farm.
The PDSA has a similar scheme - but it's underutilised - many bitch owners (farm or pet) just don't bother, even if it's free! But we are not arguing against the case for early spaying for that reason - well I'm not anyway. What I am saying is that it has been proved that it harms bitches physically to spay before their first season far more than any ills it prevents, and it's downright cruel to do it at 8 weeks! JMHO
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Both Rascal and Jake have been done, even so I have had to shut Jake in the bedroom as Isla has been making up to both dogs who are now getting to the fighting stage. Rather than risk one getting injured I had no choice so now sitting in the bedroom trying to console the wee guy who has gone in the huff. We think there has been a dog going about at night as Rascal has been barking his head off. Always around 10.30pm. OH let him out last night and he shot of into the field. Was gone a good 10mins. All quite after that. I know there is a dog who lives at the other end of the field but not sure if its a dog or bitch. Lurcher type thing. Be glad when things get back to normal . I think cost has a lot to do with people not getting their bitches spayed. I spent almost £400 getting the Shepherds done, I expect the price has gone up quite a bit since then.
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I doubt that my vet would advise a very young puppy be done. It was 7 month old puppies we were talking about. One was pure GSD one GSD x Rottie and one GSD x Mastif. The Rottie x came into season so had to wait the other two were done, she is the one now aged 3 years that has yet to grow up mentally, the 18 month old Mastif x is a dog everyone wants to have. Neither of these dogs are mine but the pure GSD was my dog of a lifetime. My latest bitch was done at 5 years when she left the racetrack.
When I get my next GSD puppy we will of course discuss the options again and I will find out if he has changed his mind in the last year or so.
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im sure a bitch should be done mid way between seasons.
my gsd (11) was spayed at 5 years old but still suffered from urinary incontinence. we did use drugs for a while but found that she only leaks about once a month and seems related to any change in her diet aswell - which I don't understand if it is hormonal? she leaks urine when lying down but also when walking around and she doesn't seem aware of it. its worth considering before spaying as I wasn't aware of the risk beforehand and definitely wouldn't have bothered if I had known.
she was spayed due to her minor phantom pregnancies and we just separated the dogs during her seasons previously.
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It is a worry but having pups would be more worry. I never bred my Shepherds as I felt that too many puppies end up in bad homes. I found that out when I bred Irish Setters people told all sorts of lies. We took one pup back when I went to check on how he was doing. turned out the lovely big garden was a caravan park. they lived in a caravan with 2 kids and a puppy who would grow into a big dog. I never bred again. The farms round here have working dogs who can wander now and again. its been a nightmare just keeping Isla safe.