The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: Stumpystu on November 05, 2014, 11:19:55 pm
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I have had Gingernut Rangers for a while as well as several other breeds, but I am very taken by these in particular. They are extremely friendly and they are fantastically reliable layers.
Now that I have more room, I am planning on breeding my own. Whilst I am aware that they are a cross between Rhode Island Reds and Light Sussex, can anybody tell me does it matter which way they are bred? Which is the cock and which is the hen?
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RIR cockerel over LS hen usually but there is a whole other world there. It's complicated.
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Hi Stereo
Thanks for response, but you've really opened the door there for further question....
"..there is a whole other world there. It's complicated."
I'd love to know what that means :)
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For a start there are so many strains of the 2 base breeds and there are other ways to get a 'brown hen' as well. It's not really a breed at all, just a hybrid. I think usually the Gingernut is RIR / LS and is also sometimes called a Coumbian Blacktail and many other things. Sometimes the hen is a Rhode Island White and then you don't get the black or white in the tail so much. Things like ISA Warren and stuff are trademarks, not breeds and who knows what parent stock they use, probably very hybridised themselves.
The main thing about this type of hybrid is that the chicks are sexable at hatching as the boys are a different colour and also they lay very well in the first 2 years. Plus they are docile and easy to manage. I have 3 we hatched from our RIR / LS and they are lovely birds I admit.
Nothing against them at all other than that they will lay themselves out probably way before they die and sometimes hybrids can be fragile or short lived.
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Thanks for that, very interesting.
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We once had a Sainsbury's poultry and egg supplier staying in our farm holiday cottage, who said that when he was pitching for the contract he drove to the meeting trying to think up a catchy name for the breed he kept, which was basically a Warren. He obviously chose well as by then he had 80,000 hens! Similar commercial hybrids are the ISA Brown and Lohmann.
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Yeah, and white star and so on. The main thing is that these birds are a product, they won't breed true ie. if you put an ISA Brown cockerel Iif you could find such a thing, I suspect most don't live more than a few hours at most) with an ISA Brown hen you won't get an ISA Brown chick. Just a random other hybrid.
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If one were to cross a light sussex and rir, would you really expect the resulting hybrid to be weak/ lay all their eggs in first couple years, etc? -I'd assumed that such traits were associated only where strong selection of parent stock for some traits had taken place in the parent or inbreeding. .?
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Not so much the fragility, this seems to come from 'production breeding' where I would guess that only the best layers are bred from and if you keep doing this, perhaps that leads to other issues. If you go and buy a Light Sussex POL from a bird dealer it is likely that it has come from an East European hatchery and the parents would have been selected so that there is some way, probably in the feathering that the chicks can be accurately sexed at hatch. They won't have been selected for longevity, good foraging ability or resistance to disease. They will also bear only a passing resemblance to a proper example of the breed.
But generally breeds are crossed to seek 'hybrid vigour' where they produce more eggs or more meat in a shorter time. Happens in most cattle / sheep etc.
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I prefer traditional breeds to hybrids. The hybrids lay more eggs but live for a less amount of time, so actually economic wise its better to breed traditional than hybrid, because the longer the hens live they will probably lay even more eggs than the hybrids did in their short life. I once bought in some POL and the breeder said they were light Sussex, however when we mentioned about this breeder to another breeder he informed us that they were indeed hybrids, we had wondered that for a long time.
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I've got some hybrid LS and they are 2 thirds of the size of my traditional birds. Lay more eggs but also I find egg quality is not as good.
In commercial egg production, it's all about feed conversion and POL brown hens are so cheap, they tend to go that way and bin them before their first molt. If you are breeding for quality then the last thing you want is your hen to drop dead at 2-3 years old when they are best placed to produce good chicks.
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I suppose that with chicken keeping you have to decide what you want and be clear about it. If you want to breed and improve your stock then obvs hybrids wouldn't work for that; if you want lots of eggs then a hybrid might work for you, the shorter lifespan would be a benefit then since the hens will eat as much, if not more, but produce less.
I would be interested to know if it does matter which way round the LS/ RIR cross goes? Does the RIR have to be the cock?
I had a loose plan to keep a good breeding pair to make a few hybrids for eggs which I could keep in the yard. The plan would be to retire them to the pasture once their production dropped off as this would cut feeding costs and also benefit the grass. I wonder if anyone does anything similar?
Cheers
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I suppose that with chicken keeping you have to decide what you want and be clear about it. If you want to breed and improve your stock then obvs hybrids wouldn't work for that; if you want lots of eggs then a hybrid might work for you, the shorter lifespan would be a benefit then since the hens will eat as much, if not more, but produce less.
I would be interested to know if it does matter which way round the LS/ RIR cross goes? Does the RIR have to be the cock?
I had a loose plan to keep a good breeding pair to make a few hybrids for eggs which I could keep in the yard. The plan would be to retire them to the pasture once their production dropped off as this would cut feeding costs and also benefit the grass. I wonder if anyone does anything similar?
Cheers
To get the gingernut I think the RIR has to be the cock as it's to do with passing on colour genes. I don't quite get it but a LS cock with a RIR hen will produce uniformly coloured chicks, apparently white with brown flecks. Still be a good layer I expect but you wouldn't be able to sex them at hatch. With the other way around the brown colouring only passes to the female I think. Or maybe it's that silver is dominant so the boys come out silver? Summink like that anyway.
I'm thinking of doing some next year as I have a young LS cockerel spare and some good RIR hens but no RIR cockerel. I tried to hatch one this year but just got more hens. So I might pen them up in the meantime and see what happens. I'm now thinking that I might just hatch a few hybrids every year, very early on so I have a few eggs over the winter. Then maybe pass them on to somebody else at 18 months.
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great, thanks for the info