The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: jameslindsay on November 30, 2009, 01:09:19 pm
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So, for St Andrews Day the Scottish Government have started the programme to work towards giving us Scots a referendum on Independence. Which, by the way, they tell us that we Scots want. So, do we want it or do we think we will ever be Independent?
For the record I don't want Independence and doubt we will get it in the foreseeable future. However, I never thought we would get the expensive eyesore that is the Scottish Parliament.
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I agree with some of that, James. I don't think we will get nor do most Scots want full independence. But I do thing we need more autonomy and governance over our own laws and the income that should be ours.
I also agree that that thing is an expensive monstrosity - if that architect hadn't died somebody would have lynched him! Having been inside it now it is a huge cold unwelcoming building, a total waste of our money.
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I never thought I woudl but I kind of favour independence now - especially if the Tories get in at Westminster. They will have no mandate to govern Scotland.
However, I think there shoudl be a referendum - if it's No then it's off the agenda for a while. But I really object to not being asked - and for that reason alone, I'll be voting SNP. Most disappointing are the Lib Dems who are neither liberal nor democratic.
I listened to a snip of a programme today and was amazed at how aggressive the English callers were aout Scottish independence. If the hate us that much, maybe we'd better leave quietly.
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most English people don't think about the Scots one way or the other really ... they are just there the same as us . But there is bad feeling both ways with 'some' people , thats just the way things are .
As for Independence well, Scotland can separate from the former UK if it wants , it makes absolutely no difference at all . The whole of the former UK is now governed by the EU, NOT westminster !!! try to become independent of the EU ...ask for a referendum on that !!!
I know Scotland has it's own parliament and Wales has it's own assembly , but they are still governed by the EU , and can only do what the EU allows them to do . The main thing with the EU was, it wanted to bring England down , pull it apart .... they have all but done that now. They were not too bothered about Scotland and Wales , but they came with the package and are part of the EU and under it's control , like it or lump it !!!
cheers
Russ
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I can understand the reasoning behind Independence in Scotland but I think financially being independent may be a very bad move.
Most people that still hold grudges against the English are not worthy of being true Scots!! (OH Dear) I consider some places in Scotland would be run down and isolated as the indigenous people move out to find and the crime in the major cities of Scotland would drain the economy if not for the alliance with Great Britain
This pattern happens all over the world, ideally it would be great if all the Scots stayed and made the country strong and Dependant but the weather, the lack of work and the economics of living so far from everywhere make emigration too tempting...now I am waffling and making enemies.
May I add, I would love Scotland to keep it's traditions and culture as I would also love the rest of the UK . I am proud to have Scottish ancestors and relations.....but the way things are going times are changing for everyone.
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I agree James I don't think we will achieve independence but like Rosemary I would like to be asked. But an even bigger and more expensive eyesore than the carbuncle that is the parliament building are the nuclear submarines in the Clyde. How many billions are they costing? I have voted labour all my life but have now changed my allegiance to SNP following Blair and co lies about the Iraq war and WMD.
You are correct Russ about Britain's diminution of power as an EU member state but I think that the smaller countries do well from the European Union. If Scotland was an independent country there is no doubt in my mind that we would have at least been asked re our membership and would not have been forced into it by westminster. This current Scottish government are doing ok despite not having a majority.
JD
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This current Scottish government are doing ok despite not having a majority.
And the way things are going it will have a majority next time!
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‘It is in truth not for glory, nor riches, nor honours that we are fighting, but for freedom - for that alone, which no honest man gives up but with life itself.’
or as Mel would say
"FREEEEEEEEDOMMMMMMMMMMMMMM!
I'm all for it, I think the Scottish Parliament has done many many good things - things I would say are just as regards health care, the elderly and education
ok, lots of nonsense too, but I think their heart is in the right place
a united europe is on it's way, so once we are all swallowed up in that, we may as well at least have our own country to enter in the olympics
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Hear, hear, Chris! Well said!
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Agreed!! Labour have shafted the UK, so I'll be voting for independance.
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From a work point of view (I work in cultural services) I would like to see Scotland with greater recognition within Europe. Scotland has a culture of learning which enhances citizens quality of life. However I have lived in England and many of my family for various reasons live in England and I really don't want an increase in animosity.
In many ways Scottish attitudes towards culture, the arts and education are in the forefront of good work. It all goes back to the Auld Alliance and the idea that to be an educated individual we should have a good knowledge of Europe. Our young people keep this type of thinking going with doing a year of travel in a gap year. However England is one of the places that is interesting to travel to and learn about. I am not a nationalist but I am keen on everywhere having a strong cultural identity and then being able to appreciate their own and their neighbour's cultural identity. Financial independence doesn't seem viable because we are so very very small. So long and short of it is that I'm not sure but if someone comes up with a good arguement one way or the other I'll vote for them.
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Give us back our oil!(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Drinks/party-drunk.gif)
It's gettin awfie naer hogmanay (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Drinks/party-drunk.gif)
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who's oil cry freedom for Shetland a land stolen by its large southern neighbour. keep your mitts off our oil you southerners. the enforced servitude a ruling elite imposed on us and our freedoms taken away. give us our laws back give us our language give us our fish back
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I can understand the reasoning behind Independence in Scotland but I think financially being independent may be a very bad move.
Most people that still hold grudges against the English are not worthy of being true Scots!! (OH Dear) I consider some places in Scotland would be run down and isolated as the indigenous people move out to find and the crime in the major cities of Scotland would drain the economy if not for the alliance with Great Britain
This pattern happens all over the world, ideally it would be great if all the Scots stayed and made the country strong and Dependant but the weather, the lack of work and the economics of living so far from everywhere make emigration too tempting..
Well Said Sandy - if people were not emotionally involved in these issues they would see that smaller countries could not survive without the infastructure and social welfare benefits from the larger population.
Ireland has the same problem - some of them fee lwringed by the English and want the North Back - personally I would see having the North back a large drain on the Irish governement and they could not handle it - Ireland is going bankrupt now because of the influx of Romanian, Polish and other E.U. citizens who are entitled to live here, and claim for all their kids back home and send money to them. Family child allowance in Ireland is 135.00 per month for one child, increasing as you have more children. The monthly salary in some E.U. countries is 330.00 euros per month - so if they have three kids, and move on their own to Ireland, they can work and earn up to 600 euros per week, and because they are working here, are entitled to over 400.00 euros per month to send home for the upkeep of their kids.
Its a way for the new entries into Europe to have their population get rich - legally - but as Ireland have only 4 million tax payers and 2 million people that are non-nationals claiming on the system - we are in a bit of a pickle - or hot soup - or something
Imagine having that problem in Scotland - you would be begging the English to stay :o
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I don't agree that Scotland couldn't survive on its own. We need to look to the northern European countries of Denmark, Norway, Sweden for our example. The UK ie England harks after its imperial past, hence its alliance with imperialist USA. Scotland has never had imperialist expectations, although many Scots fought and died in many ways to build the British Empire.
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oh scotland did have ideas of empire. from the bruces in ireland to the failed american plan. the wars to destroy the lords of the isles and not forgeting the annexing of orkney and shetland. its just that ngland was better at it than the scots were. a bit like football. by the way in seriousness don't assume that we would go along with you. and without the oil/gas your money problems would be quite bad.
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From what my mother has told me Shetland foke do not regard themselves part of Britain anyway. At least they have done well for the people of Shetland with the money from the oil which is more than the rest of us can say. A vote would be a good thing but will we ever get it. Bearing in mind this country did not want to go to war. What the people want seems to be at the bottom of the governments concerns in just about everything.
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the oil money has kept both scotland and england going. we got something like a penny a barrel. we do think were part of the uk. its just that the scots feel that they have been the worse off of the union. we feel the same. without our own reserves we would still be dependenant on the central belt for our services and they would not be anything like as good. its also odd that the snp prefer to help those who vote for them i.e the discounted ferry fares to the western isles. because we and the orkneys return a liberal we get left out. pray tell what is a new forth crossing going to do for us.
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Oh come on now, shetlandpaul
I watched a programme about the excellent seafood industry which helps to sustain Orkney, with the lobster raising farm which does so much toward keeping it viable. I don't really see any benefit in financial terms from that. Nor do I get any return from the huge investment in oil related industry in Shetland.
Similarly, though, I expect nothing in return from the huge amount of money, some of it mine, which is being sucked into the 2012 thing in London and Englandshire.
The Forth crossing is required because there was a botch job made of the present road crossing which has been in existence only since 1964, unlike the rail bridge which has stood since 1890.
Perhaps your lot will improve when Scotland finally becomes an independant nation in its own right, and we become more like the Scandinavian countries in our outlook and in our dealings with the auld enemy.
I believe Scotland will become independant of England one day............I just hope I live long enough to see it happen. As for the parliament building, with its upturned boats incorporated into the design by the dead Spaniard..........wasn't it the Spanish who did for our fishing industry? Thankfully, in Alex salmond, we now have an indivividual who feels the humiliation which many of us feel, unlike the Westminster lachies we've had previously.
'for, as long as but a hundred of us remain alive, never will we on any conditions be brought under English rule.' Bruce must be spinning in his grave. :-[
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We could manage fine on our own! So long as we don't all follow the call of 'The Homecoming', then we'd sink ;) Is it finished at last? A bit of a damp squib I think! Any chance of trading our lovely mountains for some better weather if we go independent? ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Ireland has the same problem - some of them fee lwringed by the English and want the North Back - personally I would see having the North back a large drain on the Irish governement and they could not handle it - Ireland is going bankrupt now because of the influx of Romanian, Polish and other E.U. citizens who are entitled to live here, and claim for all their kids back home and send money to them. Family child allowance in Ireland is 135.00 per month for one child, increasing as you have more children. The monthly salary in some E.U. countries is 330.00 euros per month - so if they have three kids, and move on their own to Ireland, they can work and earn up to 600 euros per week, and because they are working here, are entitled to over 400.00 euros per month to send home for the upkeep of their kids.
Its a way for the new entries into Europe to have their population get rich - legally - but as Ireland have only 4 million tax payers and 2 million people that are non-nationals claiming on the system - we are in a bit of a pickle - or hot soup - or something
Imagine having that problem in Scotland - you would be begging the English to stay :o
Hi Snoopy, I cant believe Ireland has 2million non nationals in the country. Where did you get those figures? At the 2006 census non EU nationals outnumbered EU nationals and their combined total was 419,733.
JD
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Sorry still cant do the quotes properly.
JD
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Hiya JD
The quarterly statistics for each country for migration are sent to European statistics by border control in the
U.K.
http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/newsarticles/2009/november/immigration-asylum-stats (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/sitecontent/newsarticles/2009/november/immigration-asylum-stats)
In Ireland it is a bit messier to get the information, as several departments have figures, but visa applications, social
welfare claimants and legal immigrants are recorded by various places.
I took figures from all over the place, and so cannot give you a link, and my figures could be out if there are any overlap on people counted in different situations.
You are correct in that the only statistics that are published and available to the public is the last 2006 census report.
I have been studying loads of europa, eurybase and other academic databases for figures and information for the
Social Science Diploma exam that I have been doing at home for the last three weeks.
Finished it today - by the way, I hope you can make it to meet up with us all on the 7th - will be nice to put a face to the name.
;D
Julie
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My own homecomming next year 2010 on my birthday as well, all comming from everywhere!
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Would be good and then all those 'scots' people would stop shouting about being ruled by the 'English' lol
It is possible but I believe their might be a financial issues. (my opinion).
Linz
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Thanks Julie I think Ireland is just too wellcoming and has to get tougher. Good luck with the exam. Dont know yet about Monday may be in Cheshire will find out friday.
JD
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This will no doubt open a can of worms today, this is on the BBC News website. Agree with the Judge or not?
Judge A 66-year-old church elder convicted of indecently assaulting a child will not be sent to jail because his obesity means his health is "precarious".
John William McConaghy, from Urbal Road, Dervock, County Antrim, was found guilty of indecent assault.
David Smyth at Antrim Crown Court suspended a two-and-a-half year term.
He said McConaghy's lack of mobility, ulcerated legs and need for frequent dressings amounted to "wholly exceptional circumstances".
The jail term was suspended for three years and a £10,000 fine was also imposed.
During a 10-day trial in October McConaghy's victim, who is now 44, said she was indecently assaulted from the age of around 10 until she was 18.
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No - I don't agree - he has to pay the price for a crime (one of the most horrendous IMHO) he has been proven to have committed(and repeated for 8 years!) and I don't think a fine is the right way to do this >:( Lock him up, let him rot >:(
Or even better, bring back capital punishment - free up cash for more needy causes and solve the over population in prisons - AND maybe, just maybe potential crims would be put off - by knowing they faced death if caught.
I should be prime minister don't ya think ;)
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I'll vote for you HH. I think it is wrong too. he knows he can't go to jail so why the hell should he part with £10000 to pay his fine??? How can they punish him then?
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This is just ridiculous. The punishments seem to be so lax for serious crimes. But it isn't anything new. I remember the young lad who killed my late husband in a car crash was convicted of careless driving - his punishment? £400 fine, ban for three months and resit his test.
And what of this war criminal in the news just now, who apparently is 90+ what will happen there - he allegedly murdered, or was in charge of murdering, 30,000 people!
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???
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Abuse affects the rest of the persons life, what a trade off!!
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This is where my namby pamby liberal politics wear off........skin the b*****rd ulcers and all. >:( >:(
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church elder...dirty old men
If I was in charge - surgery for repeat offenders
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Surgery? .......... two bricks smashed together hard.