The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Land Management => Topic started by: JosieMc on August 31, 2014, 09:54:49 am
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Hello
I wonder if someone can help? I have about half an acre which is completely overrun with thistles and nettles. I've done some research into how to clear it and my local farmer has said he can flail mow it for me but I'm just trying to work out when I should be doing stuff. As the nettles and thistles are starting to die down already should I just leave it all until spring? I think I will spray it then as from research this seems to be the only way to really control these weeds. Or should I get the farmer to mow it now before it gets too wet? I
I'm not sure if that would have any benefit? What do I do once I've sprayed it? Keep spraying it? My end game is to plant a few fruit trees and berry bushes and also have a few raised beds. At present - apart from the nettles and thistles -there are a few nice trees such as walnut and horse chestnut and a young weeping willow, nothing else of note. I'm not sure what kind of soil I have. When should I aim to start planting? This is all very new to me so any advice gratefully received! Thanks!
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I've just rid a three and a half acre field of creeping thistle by pulling them. It's a tough job but I did it bit by bit and kept at it when some of them inevitably grow back. I'm only pulling up tiny specimens now and the appearance of the field, an old hay meadow, has changed dramatically for the better. In my case I decided not to spray as there were an interesting range of herbs and grasses, worthy of encouragement. To me, dealing with half an acre would be child's play. If you consider it not worth the effort, you could consider spraying with glyphosate once then re-seed in late autumn with a mixture suitable to your soil type i.e loam, chalk or acid. It's easy enough to do a simple ph test based on two or three soil samples taken from different points in the field.
The combination of thistle and nettle in your field suggests overly enriched soil. My approach would be to cut and remove the vegetation now. This will promote longer term growth of wild flowers in the sward. It will also weaken the thistle rhizome which right now is accumulating stores for next years growth. Creeping thistle reproduces mainly by sending up new shoots from its underground stem rather than from viable seed.
Do you really want to grow your own food in soil which you have constantly drenched in herbicide?
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I would get your farmer friend in now, the grass will have a chance to grow before the winter. I would tackle any weeds when there start to grow in the spring.
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I agree. Mow it down tight now and that should let the grass have a go before it gets too cold. Personally I would avoid spraying. A good grass sward should deal with the nettles over time and thistles can be mechanically pulled as mentioned and also topped in June / July when they are just forming flowers. This hurts them quite badly. It's a war of attrition but much more satisfying than drenching roundup all over the place which will kill a lot of other stuff as well, aside from the damage it does to the micro-organisms in the soil.
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Clear a little bit under the walnut tree and put a bench there , You can then sit and ponder :thinking: :thinking: . Job done! ;D :thumbsup:
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thanks for all the great advice. I'll get the farmer in and see if I can tackle by hand as well. It might only be half an acre but with a toddler and 4 month old, it isn't always possible to hang out with thistles and nettles too! :D Want to start working on it though so we are ready to get involved when the kids are a bit bigger! Thanks again!
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I got hold of some road pins to visually section off one part of the field then concentrated on clearing that section before moving the rods and starting again in the next. Morale wasn't broken that way and I could see whole sections being cleared as I went across the field. People laugh at you when you pull thistles and yes, you have to be mad to do it that way. But you do really get to know your sward. How many farmers today can say that about their fields? The one who comes in to help me occasionally hardly knows the name of a single wildflower and yet he's spent his whole life farming 200 acres.
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It's satisfying when it's done. :)
I've just started to clear some of my land. Hard work. I have a flail mower which I had intended to use earlier in the year. However I didn't plan on dislocating my shoulder and having 3 months of watching the grass grow. The grass and the thistles and the nettles and the docks and the brambles.
At the same time, I as lucky to see what few wild flowers I already have and that I have at least 6 different grasses.
Hopefully I'll continue to make progress, both in terms of clearing the land and recovering functionality in my right arm.
I'll never need to buy nettle tea again either.
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Mow them now, one way or another. With half an acre, you could use a petrol strimmer or even an old scythe and do it yourself, or get the farmer in who'll do it in minutes.
No point spraying until you have active growth in the spring: faster they're growing, the harder they fall! Alternatively, get a ride-on mower and keep it in check with that. Geese, pigs or oeussant sheep will also help.
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Revisiting this now that it feels like we might be edging closer to Spring finally! So the farmer who was going to flail mow my land in September didn't ever turn up and after calling him 3 times I gave up.
I really want to start working on this and getting it under control. My Father in Law has a high quality brush cutter and I'm wondering if I should start using it now to get things going before any proper growth starts. Or should I wait a bit longer?
I had a quote from a gardener to come and scrape the soil for £750, stating I'd only need to do this once to get it under control. But I feel that is quite a lot of money in case it doesn't work!
So my options are:
1) Start a weekly strim and pull of thistles
2) Wait til what might be considered a better time of year to start strimming?
3) Pay someone £750 to scrap the soil and remove
4) See if the farmer would flail mow it again for £150?
Here is a pic of it at present:
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If your not having any livestock to keep it down afterwards your going to need a ride on mower to keep on top of it. I would get one now and start on the highest setting. Once you know where all the bricks etc are lower it until its at the height you want it at. I had to do it with a field about the same size. My was much more overgrown than that and the westwood t1600 mower did a super job. Only thing was it grew back quicker than I could keep up but luckily I have sheep on it now.
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depends on your climate/ growing conditions when to start, when you see the things growing?
We've used a brushcutter on thistles in the past, then pulled some, I ended up spot treating thistles and docks with glyphosate, I like the idea of portioning it off, helps to control where you're working as well as the phsycological aspect of not getting anywhere, you can do a small area at a time and see the difference.
Pulling is satisfying when you see the pile and a clear area.
Don't like the sound of 'scraping the soil', dock roots can go down a long way,
and nettles, well-only a bit has to be left behind.
£150 sounds a lot of money to flail 1/2 acre.
We have an 'Allen scythe' type mower, might be worth investing in one? (there again - ride on sounds much more fun, and easier!)
How bad is it? ie-is there more weeds than grass?? have you a photo?
thought - Get some geese :-) they'll keep the grass short so you can deal with the weeds
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Where are you? maybe someone can help.
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There's an old saying " Cut thistles in May, they'll be up next day, cut them in June, they'll be up again soon, cut in July, they're sure to die"
Can you still get thistle spudders? They are odd shaped narrow spades, as a child I believed I was born with one in my hand!!
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I am in West Yorkshire near Hebden Bridge.
Looking at photos from last year, the fields were full of buttercups by late April and the garden was very much in bloom by mid May. It's hard to remember as I had a baby in mid April so its all a bit of a blur.
We don't have the money to spend on a sit on mower unfortunately. That sounds like fun!
I think brush cutter and thistle spudder might be the way to go and I'll start clearing a small patch first!
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Just sent you a pm
did I actually miss that photo earlier? must be going blind!
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I know this is going to sound patronising but it isn't meant to be. If it's only half an acre and you plan on fruit trees, soft fruit bushes and a decent amount of veggies then most of your problem is solved. I know i went OTT with my veggie patches and will downsize them but I alternate between two 1/4 acre patches. One patch grows enough spuds for OH and myself with more tha enough to give away and throw away the duds and small un's etc. I've stil got 2 sacks of onions in the barn as well and there's more tha neough leeks, carrots, parsnips and brassicas about to see us until the early glasshouse salad stuff.. and that's despite trying hard to give lots away.
What it really depends on is what the land i actually like..in terms of depth of soil and soil type. I see no point in making raised beds if the soil has enough depth.
If you stick in a dozen apples, 3 pears, 4 cherries a few nut trees some plums, gages. a medlar, 2 sweet chestnuts, a walnut ... even if it's for future generations.. well you'll just be mowing between them anyway. then there's the soft fruit... a dozen blueberries, half a dozen each sort of currant, some honey berries, raspberries, josterberries, thornless blackberries, gooseberries..... that plot will look quite full soon enough. What mowing with a push petrol job can't keep down can be spot treated later.
And if you can get away with fruit trees on it then you can probably get away with a glasshouse or polytunnel too...
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Personally, I'd get it mown as short as possible then peg out some cardboard or carpet to mulch the areas where you're going to plant the trees. I don't like all this spraying with chemicals.
Get in touch with some local tree surgeons and they'll probably be only too glad to dump woodchip on your land to cover the cardboard with. I have a friend whose business pays quite a lot of money to get rid of waste cardboard so getting hold of large amounts is pretty easy.
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Thank you for your advice. Not patronising at all. I have this vision in my head I have to get the ground perfect and have completely got rid of the thistles and nettles for good (or as good as poss) before I start planting anything. But are you saying I should just start planting and then mow around? I guess I just need to plan what is going where, cut it right down now and clear it and then start with a couple of veg beds and put some trees in?
I know this is going to sound patronising but it isn't meant to be. If it's only half an acre and you plan on fruit trees, soft fruit bushes and a decent amount of veggies then most of your problem is solved. I know i went OTT with my veggie patches and will downsize them but I alternate between two 1/4 acre patches. One patch grows enough spuds for OH and myself with more tha enough to give away and throw away the duds and small un's etc. I've stil got 2 sacks of onions in the barn as well and there's more tha neough leeks, carrots, parsnips and brassicas about to see us until the early glasshouse salad stuff.. and that's despite trying hard to give lots away.
What it really depends on is what the land i actually like..in terms of depth of soil and soil type. I see no point in making raised beds if the soil has enough depth.
If you stick in a dozen apples, 3 pears, 4 cherries a few nut trees some plums, gages. a medlar, 2 sweet chestnuts, a walnut ... even if it's for future generations.. well you'll just be mowing between them anyway. then there's the soft fruit... a dozen blueberries, half a dozen each sort of currant, some honey berries, raspberries, josterberries, thornless blackberries, gooseberries..... that plot will look quite full soon enough. What mowing with a push petrol job can't keep down can be spot treated later.
And if you can get away with fruit trees on it then you can probably get away with a glasshouse or polytunnel too...
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And you can tell your children that they were born with a thistle spudder in their hand. Or are children not so gullible these days ;)
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Could you spend the £750 on fencing with stock net, and then put a few store lambs on it for the season? They won't eat the old thistle stems but may keep on top of the new weeds. I took over a small overgrown patch 2 years ago and the sheep have turned it into a lawn ;D . But don't plant young trees if you plan to put sheep in there ::) .
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Well the land has stone walls on 2 sides and a farmers fence on the other so I'd just need fencing / electric fencing for one side. Might look into that!
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Thank you for your advice. Not patronising at all. I have this vision in my head I have to get the ground perfect and have completely got rid of the thistles and nettles for good (or as good as poss) before I start planting anything. But are you saying I should just start planting and then mow around? I guess I just need to plan what is going where, cut it right down now and clear it and then start with a couple of veg beds and put some trees in?
I'm saying that you'll be digging holes for trees and either weed those holes (or turn deep turfs upside down in them) and you'll be digging/weeding beds (or spraying them down and rotorvating or covering them with topsoil etc) and those processes will be dealing with most of the area anyway. The rest if kept mown very short will stop weeds flowering and producing more seeds and the mowing itself may eave an acceptable lawn as is. Why try dealing with the whole plot first when you'll be processing most of it again anyway.
My starting point would be to look at soil depth and type... if deep enough then raised beds are unnecessary. Soil type can be manipulated.. lime or acidifiers, mulches and sand or manure .. whatever it needs.
My lawns here (about 3 acres) are just what used to be mixed wild flower and grasses meadow.. kept mowed it's fine . Leave an area and it'll look docky and nettly quite quickly but get back to mowing and it looks fine. My veggie patches are just ploughed up same meadow... got a good depth of soil here. But no-one had added nutrients and had been mowing for hay for any many years.. land was a bit nutrient bare for veggies. I have solved that wth a combination of some 20 tons of rotten horse manure, several trailer-fulls of tree chippings and a couple of years of top-dressings with cow muck. It's still weedy land.. those seeds would be there for years. I alternate my growing patches.. one used for the veggies and the other fallow. The fallow one gets sprayed down at the end of summer, then ploughed and left over winter before being harrowed and rotorvated for the current years planting while the previous years patch gets mown off and muched from the winters veggie leftovers and allowed to be fallow for the season.. All those weed seeds germinate again and it becomes meadow(ish) while i spend the season chucking chicken waste, chippings etc on it before the autumn spray down and plough. I run the topper over it if docks/nettles looks like they'll flower. Another 7 or 8 years it might stop being so weedy.
Yeah, I could have double dug those 2x 1/4 acres, hand weeded them, created compost heaps etc and still spent all my time weeding the veggies because of the legacy of seeds in the soil. I'm too old and knackered for that
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Josie - having a rough idea of where you are, I'm thinking the land faces west or south west, fairly high up, have you thought of planting a windbreak as well?
That was one of the first things I did when I cam up here, the relief of getting into the lee of these hedges is amazing.
You may find you're limited in what top fruit you can grow. soft fruit does well.