The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Land Management => Topic started by: Ryder on August 28, 2014, 12:28:54 pm
-
I may be able to purchase approx 4 or 5 acres or so of agricultural/grazing land soon. However, as I'm sure most of you already know, the chances of getting planning permission for having even a static caravan let alone building a home there are very very slim. So I will not be living on site.
The land maybe 10 miles or more away from my house. I would want to keep things like chickens, ducks, goats sheep and maybe even a cow if space permits as well as possibly planting fruit trees, vegetable gardening etc.
Is it possible, or will it just be too difficult? What problems can you foresee (security issues, travel expenses, time spent...) and more importantly, what options are there to overcome those problems? Maybe only certain types of livestock or plants will be suitable in this sort of setup, if so what types?
I have come across atleast one person who kept chickens and horses on about 3 acres, but lived about 7 miles away. Not in touch with them anymore though, so not sure how they managed it.
-
Chicken/duck wise you'd need to fit the house with an automatic pop hole timer so it opens and closes automatically therefore not necessitating you to be there at each end of the day.
Most animals need to be checked twice a day so fuel expenses need to come into the equation, plus what will you do when your sheep are lambing or cow is due to calve? I guess it depends how much time you can give up to it, it's more of an effort having animals off site and obviously a risk security wise- you would need to have locked gates, very good fencing etc.
-
10 miles is a long way. I think I would forget poultry.... have enough trouble going out for a long day here with the ducks and hens to see too. Avoid breeding stock. finishing some store lambs for the freezer could be doable or even cattle if you can get the handing kit (you will need a decent water source.
Veg gardening etc I guess depends on location ... and security.
-
Travelling twice a day would be far too costly for me, maybe just get away with travelling back and forth once a day.
During lambing, you can have a caravan on site for 28 days I think. The same maybe for calving? Better than nothing I guess.
I know a lot of horses keepers keep horses miles away from home in their fields (not liveries), but horses have tracking implants these days so security is not as much of a worry with them. I was wondering if something similar could be achieved with livestock? Chickens and ducks I thought would have been an easier option, in their coops can usually go for a day or two without being checked on so long as they have access to food and water and it's not overcrowded (wait do you need planning permission to build large coops? If not then I might just build them an extra luxurious one in which I can stay too :innocent: ) but then security is another issue, besides CCTV how can you keep your chickens from being stolen?
How long can Lambs, goats and cows go without being checked if they have the basics like food and water?
-
I live a wee bit away from my smallholding 15 minutes by car and am there every morning and night and as much as possible in the day. I keep Shetland sheep who are easy lambers and fairly low maintenance also a couple of Castlemilk Moorits also easy, ( as easy as any sheep can be. ) poultry wise I have a few geese and turkeys every year for Christmas and some Scots Grey and Scots Dumpy bantams. I am self employed so can work as and when I like which gives me a certain amount of freedom with time. It is a big commitment. I have great neighbours next to my place who keep an eye on things and let me know if anything is amiss and also look after the animals when I'm on holiday. You have to love the way of life and work at it. My place is far from perfect but one day maybe :fc: there will be more folks to comment best of luck.
-
In your position, I wouldn't buy it. Somewhere closer will turn up. Animals have, by law, to be checked at least once a day, which means going to your land come rain or shine, deep snow, heat wave or you feeling ill, every single day.
If fuel costs would be an issue to visit twice a day, then what about vet costs? You can't stint on animal welfare. By waiting to buy somewhere closer, you would have more cash for vet bills, not spent on fuel.
I worry that you want to 'get by' with visiting less frequently than every day. Besides the fact that to run a place with that many livestock (including goats and a cow which have to be milked), plus veg growing, requires a large input of time and effort, 'getting by' isn't really an acceptable approach to keeping animals. As bigchicken says, it is a big commitment, and I don't see that from you in your question.
Sorry if this sounds harsh and like bursting your bubble, but I don't think you're being realistic about the amount of work involved, the animal's welfare and the law. Perhaps you should take more time to research just what will be involved in running a place like that, and getting some practical experience if you have none, before rushing headlong into something which quite honestly I think is doomed to fail.
Now I'd better duck behind the sofa :sofa:
-
I agree with everything you say fleecewife. Don't get me wrong, I would be spending a large portion of everyday there (or someone from the family on any days I cannot make it). The point about chickens being O.K. for a day or two without being checked was like an absolute worst case scenario. But I was wondering more on the "can it be done" side or is it a very foolish thing to do, because whilst I may be there for large portions of the day (everyday), I will not be there for the night. And that brings up the whole issue of security.
But is security the only major thing I have to think of if I am not staying there overnight? I think I can handle the cost of daily travel, it's just like travelling to work. (I'm self employed anyway so very flexible in that respect).
bigchicken, could you possibly elaborate a bit more on the things that concern you or things that you often think about or are worried about by not living on your plot?
-
Hi Ryder
Rebecca Laughton published her research project, in which she examined various smallholdings and their management, the book is called:
Surviving and thriving on the land- How to use your time and energy to run a successful smallholding.
By Rebecca Laughton
It is a sensible, no nonesense, which is based on hard won experience, one area that is investigated is having land miles from home and the relevant problems.
Hope this helps
SV.
-
I think where ever you have livestock you need to visit a minimum of once a day. They will look after themselves to an extent but if you have a sheep get stuck on it's back or come down with mastitis, or a lamb with pneumonia or bloat, or sheep stuck in the hedge, calf not sucking, cow go down with milk fever etc etc time is of the essence. If you can't guarantee you won't be able to check them at least once a day then I can't see livestock working.
Chicken even if they are in a coop still need to be shut away at night, a fox will just dig under the run and hey presto chicken dinner is served.
-
As twiz says, there are times when once a day simply isn't enough - when heavily fleeced, when heavily pregnant, when lambing or calving, for instance. So as well as being able to commit to - and enjoy, whatever the weather or other factors, the daily visits, you would also need to feel confident that you could visit more frequently at times when the welfare of the livestock might demand that.
-
I can only speak from a poultry perspective at the moment but even though I am living on our farm, I have tried, or am aspiring, to design all our poultry flocks, runs, coups, broodies etc. to be able to survive for 3 whole days without attention. Now that never happens, or hasn't yet but that is how I look at everything I do. If I was sick in bed and nobody found me for 3 days (unlikely as I have a wife and 3 boys), would anything die?
I find that in doing that, you feel less pressure. You can fill up the feeders and drinkers when you have the time and know that although you will probably be back in a few hours that if, for some reason, you weren't, the animals will have enough resources to get through until somebody thinks about checking on them.
I've also gone for 3 days because due to time, work and money constraints, our family is likely to only go away for the odd long camping weekend for the next few years at least and while I can get our lovely neighbours to check in on the chickens, I know that if for some reason they let me down, the birds will all still be alive when I return.
It's maybe a bit over the top but smelly things do occasionally hit fans.
-
Stereo .... great idea and one we aspired too as well .......... 7 foot fencing , sheltered by trees from sun and excess rain, houses large enough for feed and water to be inside and just saving for auto door shutters when aforementioned trees (all 60 - 70 feet of them) blew down in a gale and flattened the lot (but only one duck fortunately) .............. back to the drawing board!! Moto here is yes daily checks are essential ... who knows what may happen!!
-
Should have had those trees down and on the firewood stack before it got windy ;D
-
Should have had those trees down and on the firewood stack before it got windy ;D
.... why pay £2000 when the wind does it for free :innocent:
-
Yes, when any of the livestock become ill, that will be a testing time requiring far more time on site. Spending time on site is something I can do as I am very flexible due to being self employed. It would need careful planning obviously so I do not have to do unnecessary journeys. I would rather go there in the morning and come back in the evening, than make two or more journeys. Obviously precautions will have to be taken against predators also (electric fences etc).
Also, I don't plan on doing everything in one go. I will probably start of with poultry as I have a fair bit of experience, some beehives, as I am learning all that now, and then move onto perhaps sheep or goats.
I absolutely understand it will be very difficult and there will be very testing times. But I am willing to give it a shot as it is a passion.
My main concern still remains security. Any more thoughts on the whole security issue i.e leaving livestock unguarded at night and ways to work around this issue?
Thanks for the book recommendation SV, I will look into it. Certainly seems like it could provide some useful tips.
-
Whilst obviously you'll have to spend more time on site if cows are calving, sheep are lambing or become ill, I think what could be an issue is just checking them once a day yet alone once every few days. It's fine devoting the time to them once they are ill, but if you check your sheep at 8am and one gets ill at 10am that day, it's going to go another 22 hours until you find it either dead or alive needing attention. Whereas if you went twice a day, the longest it may go until you find it is overnight. And the other thing to note is are you able to drop everything if a cow or sheep becomes ill?
I don't mean to rain on your parade or anything but you've got to make the time to visit every day probably twice a day- no journey is unnecessary when it comes to checking livestock.
If you're going down the poultry route first I think you need to invest in automatic door timers as well as electric fence. Security wise padlock gates and good fencing is probably the best you can do as well as getting friendly with your neighbours so that they may keep an eye on things when you aren't there.
-
Ok my main worry would be not being able to attend to my animals from illness or some other thing that would prevent me, that means if I have a cold the flu sore back am half blinded with plaster in my eye have 14 urine infection one after I have to go. I am concerned that by not being there more I will be to late to help or prevent anything that would effect the welfare of my stock, for example a Fox taking my bantams during the day, sheep getting into some kind or trouble at lambing etc. I also think if I lived on site I would get things done more quickly and with less fuss as everything would be at hand and not need to be transported As I said before it's a big commitment that means you must must be up for it and absolutely can't say I can't be bothered or it is only this time it won't matter, well it does and I can't stress this enough. I have become used to the traveling and apart from that my circumstance is not that much differant from some one who has a smallholding and works elsewhere. Say to yourself do I want to make this kind of a commitment for 20 years. Hope that helps a bit if you have any specific questions please ask and I will try and answer cheer all the best.
-
Ok, I think the last 2 posts have got through to me. Yeah, gonna have to realistically account for atleast 2 journey's (minimum) per day for welfare issues.
That's about £7-£8 blown in fuel everyday! That's almost £3000 a year and prices are only going up. That is just not an option for me, I just cannot justify that expense! I always considered myself to be a cycler but 10 miles everyday is again not realistic. Motorbike? Probably still cost £1500 year plus initial outlay. (sorry was just thinking aloud). And even then I would be in a constant state of worry, worrying about animals are ok, worrying about security, as no matter what you probably cannot get decent security unless you get great neighbours.
Sigh, annoying planning regulations. They should atleast let smallholders build a tiny residence, or atleast let us stay in a caravan year round for crying out loud. What harm is it going to do anyone if we stay in a caravan overnight!
Well, back to dreaming.
-
Good decision Ryder :thumbsup: sad though it is for you. Don't let it stop you looking for land a bit closer to home - some is bound to turn up in time - serendipity happens :sunshine:
-
Unfortunately, when you live in the middle of a city like Birmingham, and urbanisation surrounds you for miles in every direction, getting anything decent under 10 miles is very unlikely.
-
Don't suppose you have a local city farm you could get involved with .... a way to get lots of experience and help children too.
-
Ryder - if you ever want to come here for a weekend then be my guest!!! We are on a direct train route from Brum
-
I could look into the local farm idea, I am not aware of any at the moment. Thanks for the offer suzie, I may take you up on it someday. :)
-
why not volunteer at a rspb branch? ours has konik ponies and cattle grazing the fields, and they were keen for experienced volunteers to help them.
when i kept ponies at diy livery, i checked them twice a day even when living out. now we have livestock at home but silly things do happen, heads, legs and horns get caught in fences, hens become egg-bound, animals escape, loose dogs visit etc
i feel for you though. have you considered moving location? there are plenty of smallholding in scotland that are affordable. we moved upto aberdeenshire 10 yrs ago purely for the land and it is very lovely.
-
Friends of mine did the 'smallholding at a distance' for 3 years. 7 miles each way, twice a day. It was crippling financially, and if they didn't check the animals twice a day, crippling with worry :( . They often ended up camping there, then using a camper van, then a 'hidden' caravan. All very worrying, and in the end, they were reported to the Council. The whole family needs to be really, really committed - or something will give. Sorry to be :gloomy: .
That said, I bought my field when I lived 170 miles away :roflanim: . Just took me 3 years to move nearer. ;)
-
A local guy had a field about 4 miles from his house in the village and had 100 or so hens and some geese there. It was fairly remote but on a road and he got cleaned out twice by thieves so gave up in the end. I guess it's pretty easy to watch from a distance or a couple folk with mobiles etc. Quick call when he gets home.
-
maybe get like minded friends to join ranks with you?
-
We bought some land 10 miles away a couple of years ago, having looked for something closer for more than 3 yrs. For all sorts of reasons it's not feasible to move somewhere more rural at the moment (we're in South Oxfordshire but in a town) and in the end, having looked for so long, we decided to give it a try.
When we bought the land it was in an environmental scheme which means we have been extremely limited as to what we can do with it. The scheme is now coming to an end but I'm so glad we were unable to leap feet first into anything. We are taking things very slowly. We've got to know the land over several seasons and a wide variety of weather as well as knowing how long it takes in different conditions to get there. We are investing this autumn in a secure barn.
We plan to start with some chickens, electric fencing and automatic pop holes. If that goes ok I'd like to try pigs - not breeding, just raising a couple of weaners over the summer. If that works I'll try sheep the following year. I will be visiting the land at least twice a day but I do worry about security when I'm not there.
I'm optimistic that it can be made to work. I've spent the last few years reading and inwardly digesting everything small holding and animal related although I admit my practical experience is limited! I feel as ready as possible to start giving things a go but I think by taking things slowly and building up gradually I can give it a shot and if it really doesn't work for reasons I can't yet plan for, then I won't have got in too far too fast and at least I'll have given it a shot!
I realise this wouldn't work for everyone. We bought the land as a long term investment and my OH has a good, well paid job without which it wouldn't be possible at all. We didn't buy it with any ideas of making money in the short term and in fact will be losing money for years while we pay it off. But I love it there. Any free time I have, that's where I go. Sometimes you have to work hard to follow your dreams within the restraints life gives you.
Plan, plan and plan some more. Research, think things through and plan some more. But don't give up if it's what you really want to do. Just make sure you have contingencies in place and be prepared to admit to failure at even the first hint that your animal welfare is suffering.
-
Thanks for sharing the experiences of people you know who have tried bramble and stereo. Makes me realise just how difficult it is.
Good suggestions shygirl. I will be moving as soon as I possibly can but for various reasons it's just not possible yet and probably not possible for atleast another 5 years unfortunately.
Torrin, I'd love to know how your experience goes over the next couple of seasons as you slowly start to get into keeping livestock that far from home. After much thought and the response of people on this and other forums, I have scraped the idea of getting a smallholding so far from home. Too many issues. I will have to move at some point in the future.
Until then and on the bright side (for me), I have a fairly decent sized garden in which I keep more than a dozen chickens comfortably (no overcrowding at all). I also have enough space to start a small fish pool/farm as well as a worm farm, but perhaps the best thing is what I discovered over the last couple of days. Last week I thought I had better get onto the waiting list for an allotment as they average about 3 years waiting time. I had to give my top 3 choices. My closest one, my first choice, was on the other side of a large park (I live 30 seconds from the park on this side), and this would also be the quietest and most scenic one (as much as scenic gets within a city). It would be less than about 4 minutes to walk to from my house, and the walk would be a nice walk across the park. They got back to me and it so happens that on this very allotment there a couple of plots becoming available at the beginning of next month and there's no waiting list. And they are the large size plots too, almost a quarter of an acre (16m x 45m approx)! I could not believe it. It's about best thing that can happen to someone who can't move to a rural location, a quarter of an acre almost on my front doorstep! I can keep my beehives there as well as sort out all the veg and herbs as well as some fruits and keep more chickens if I want to. It's only the larger livestock I am missing out on for now. Did someone mention something about serendipity? :excited:
-
:excited: So pleased for you.
-
That's just brilliant news, Ryder - as you say, serendipity!
-
That's great news :excited: it's surprising how much you can do on an allotment. Ours is flourishing this year, hens, fruit, veg. :yum: and sooo enjoyable even on a cold wet day.
-
Result, get in there fantastic so pleased for you cheers.
-
So glad that you asked this.
My land is 13.5 miles from my home address. I don't drive. I think if you drive and have a suitable vehicle, all things are possible. I was cycling to my land, I'm very fit and the journey was easy, that is until I came off my pushie and dislocated my shoulder. Getting to the land became a little bit of a problem. 9 mile bus ride then a 3.5 mile walk. Twice a day. Now I run because I have most of what I need on the land thanks to family and friends moving stuff for me and thanks to my trusty shopping trolly that I could load up with stuff when I needed it.
I've had to consider security very hard, I do worry about how vulnerable my stuff is. However my land is not on a road, you have to pass through fields or someone's arden to get there. Not easy. There are a couple of people who wander about my land (uninvited, there is no public access but they come to observe the wildlife (I have a hornets nest in my barn, amazing to watch them working), anyway those people have my contact details if they spot anything untoward).