The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: jameslindsay on November 22, 2009, 03:58:14 pm
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> *_Let me see if I understand this…_*
>
>
> *IF YOU CROSS THE NORTH KOREAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU GET 12 YEARS HARD
> LABOR.*
>
> *IF YOU CROSS THE IRANIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU ARE DETAINED INDEFINITELY.*
>
> *IF YOU CROSS THE AFGHAN BORDER ILLEGALLY, YOU GET SHOT.*
>
> *IF YOU CROSS THE SAUDI ARABIAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE JAILED.*
>
> *IF YOU CROSS THE CHINESE BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU MAY NEVER BE HEARD FROM
> AGAIN.*
>
> *IF YOU CROSS THE VENEZUELAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE BRANDED A SPY
> AND YOUR FATE WILL BE SEALED.*
>
> *IF YOU CROSS THE CUBAN BORDER ILLEGALLY YOU WILL BE THROWN INTO
> POLITICAL PRISON TO ROT.*
>
> *IF YOU CROSS THE BRITISH BORDER ILLEGALLY; YOU GET A JOB, A DRIVERS
> LICENSE, SOCIAL INSURANCE CARD, WELFARE, FOOD STAMPS, CREDIT CARDS,
> SUBSIDIZED RENT OR A LOAN TO BUY A HOUSE, FREE EDUCATION, FREE HEALTH
> CARE, AND IN MANYINSTANCES YOU CAN EVEN VOTE.*
>
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that about sums it up ......and this all began in 1997 ....This can be checked and validated ....
cheers
Russ
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It's no wonder this country's in the state it is ::) ???
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i know which country i'd rather live in and i'm glad we are a bit humane in treating people who are infinitely worse off than us lucky enough to be born in the uk
are you suggesting we should shoot anyone coming into the country fleeing persecution?
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How I feel about it would depend on why the person came to Britain.
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I don't think for a second any one is suggesting that be the case. I think we at are just peeved off that it seems these "incomers" get it too easy. Sad that so many people want to enter our country and then we have to change our customs so as not to offend them. Dundee Council have changed the "Christmas" lights to the "Winter" light so as not to offend.... This is wrong, we are a Christian country!!!
Proud to be British when today it's PM and it's Opposition Leader have to apologise for causing offence on Rememberence Sunday? They should hang their heads in shame but because they have said "sorry" everything is ok.
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Well it certainly rattled my cage, but that's mostly because I'm tired of seeing the same incorrect rubbish being bandied about constantly.
If you arrive in the UK illegally you will most likely be detained in a centre which makes most jails look like 5 star hotels. If you are not detained, you are not allowed to work and you will receive no benefits, have no public record and therefore be unable to gain credit cards, subsidised rent or a loan. You will not be entitled to vote.
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This is wrong, we are a Christian country!!!
what do yo mean by that? is that a law now?
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This is wrong, we are a Christian country!!!
what do yo mean by that? is that a law now?
Who mentioned law, we are a Christian Country?
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I know this doesn't cover all these arrivals, but if someone has managed to get here, he or she probably has some energy and persistence and probably some intelligence as well.
As a result, they have the makings of an asset to this country. I should add that a recent leader of the Conservatives - Michael Howard - comes from Romanian parentage, the Milliband brothers are of Russian descent, the Grade brothers, who became entertainment impresarios, were born in Tokmak in the Ukraine. I just mention these examples to illustrate my point.
I accept that there needs to be controls on the arrival of foreigners.
I live in Norfolk and the local farming 'industry' has depended on mainly eastern European workers coming to pick salad and fruit crops. Last Summer, there weren't enough and many crops were left in the fields to rot. However, some of these immigrants stayed and we now have a Lithuanian delicatessen in the little town where I live.
I can understand that when there are large groups of immigrants forming a ghetto it can be worrying and should be prevented if this can be done without causing offence to either side.
Anyone unable to find a home or a job can see immigrants, particularly when there is an area with a lot of them, as the cause of their problems. And that can also cause friction.
I feel proud of my nationality when I hear of this country doing something to improve the world (support for poor and starving people in Africa would be a good example). I am ashamed when I hear of us causing pain in countries where we have little to justify our presence (no names but I hope you can guess). I think we have lost a lot of our standing in civilised countries as a result.
I've probably said too much so I will stop there.
NN
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People try to better themselves and their families lives...that's OK with me...work hard...contribute to the economy and abide by the rules.
People already in the country do not always contribute either....they expect a house...money every week....free health service...free prescriptions...etc etc. The amount of people I see around who have never worked and have nice clothes, nice car, nice home!!!!
I don't think it's really about immigration, I think it#s about the benefit system...it certainly needs sorting out...both myself and my OH have and do work with Asylum seekers, some have very sorry stories to tell, one family I worked with moved me a lot BUT on the other hand, they were suspected of having "hidden" away money as in the country they had come from they had a large factory....the husband was in the last stages of AIDS and died 2 day's after arriving in UK, the wife only got in as she was a Nurse but had no intention of working!!! as I said, they were a lovely family but I felt they were jumping on the same bandwagon the politicians are on...ALL you can get for free!!!!!
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P.S...a lot of us are immigrants or at least decendants of imigrants!!! People want a better, safe life and like animals, flee to safe places!!!! I came to Scotland!!! many of my ancestors left!!!!!
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This is wrong, we are a Christian country!!!
what do yo mean by that? is that a law now?
Who mentioned law, we are a Christian Country?
i'm not a christian - so am i not welcome? I actually think religion should be removed from all laws/ceremonies of the country and the churches should never be asked for their public opinions on any matter relating to the governance of the country
also many immigrants come from chirstian countries - are christian immigrants ok?
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For the record Im not a practicing Christian either.
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i think Sandy has hit the nail on the head - it's not about immigration or nationality or race. it's about contributing to society.
I read a report a few years agoand it related specifically to Scotland, but i wouldn't be surprised if it could be applied to all of the UK. Basically, there was a "skills" shortage - but it was at the bottom of the ladder. Scotland needed low paid, low skiled manual workers to do all those unpleasant jobs no one wanted to do
So immigration was to be encouraged to fill these jobs - but at the same time, there were plenty able bodied Scots sitting on their arse picking up benefits as it was preferable to doing menial, minimum wage labour.
I know a lot of Polish immigrants (and i know they are hear legally) and they hae a great work ethic. Many a scottish tradesman has been upset because they work harder and are cheaper (though, of course, like all trades, they have their share of cowboys)
If someone can come here and contribute - then fantastic. But what we need to do is make sure we don't encourage ANYONE to sit at home and pick up benefits when they can and should be out contributing their share.
Maybe we should simply shoot/imprison/deport anyone who claims benefits for more than 6 months rather than turn every immigrant away at the port.
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I stood last weekend in a queue at Heathrow behind a family from Somalia who looked like they had seen things I can only imagine. They were all stick thin with cheek bones that looked like they were going to break through. They had their best printed cotton on and looked like they were making a huge effort in difficult circumstances. They were being helped my some sort of international migration agent but the woman behind the desk was appallingly rude. I was ashamed to be white. I wanted to tell them that I hoped that they would find the better life they wanted here. But I said nothing and politely waited in Queue. I have worked a bit with asylum seekers in Glasgow who like a previous post said are not given benefits and not allowed to work. Brilliant professionals are treated worse than battery hens.
I understand your perspective James and think that we have to keep thinking and talking about all this stuff - I am not sure that the benefit system is the whole problem. I think that mismanagement of the worlds resources are the problem and if I was trying to live in a some of the world's less resourced places I would be more likely to hate the rich white west than want to work there. The way that people get access to the wonders that this world has to offer is not fair.
I blame Tesco myself! - just kidding.
Rattle rattle rattle rattle Rattle rattle rattle rattle!!!!!!
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One can have the same principles and ideals as a Christian without believing in Christ. I am also proud that we do not have to watch our backs every second, don't get dragged down to a Police Station for driving into a yellow hatched box - or anything else mildly illegal. I am glad that our police force protect me. I don't care what colour, creed, height, width, size of shoe, colour of hair or anything else anyone is or has, and so long as they do not take advantage of our system they are welcome to stay in my country. Truth to tell, my ancestors were immigrants from Skye where they were horse thieves ::)
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there you go .. the truth is out .. lock up your horses folks ...ANNIES about...
"Speed Annies boat like a bird on the wing , onward the sailors cry"....
cheers
Russ
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Wish you could come to Glasgow on the 7th Rusty - we'd all LOVE to meet you!
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Truth to tell, my ancestors were immigrants from Skye where they were horse thieves ::)
it's not that big a place - how did they get away with it?
once they had stolen some horses - who did they sell them too? there must have only been 2 buyers for horses on the island!!
i take it they did one big heist and fled the island to sell the horses on the mainland?
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I wasn't there (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Angels_and_Demons/holy-0070.gif)but the stories passed down through the generations were that they came across in boats to the mainland, rode down to the Borders, raided across the Border then herded the horses back up North, sold them on the way back to the shore and home on the boats again with whatever proceeds they had left after no doubt numerous visits to dens of iniquity en route. RESPECT! (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Respect/king-033.gif)
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That same skills shortage just after the war brought all those Afro Carabeans over with promises of a wonderful life as Bus COnductors!! They left the sun, sea and chilled out life to come to the UK, all dressed up in thieir very best just to be treated like dirt!! Fotunatley, a lot saw this as a challenge and worked hard, saved, got an education and moved on ...I love a multicultural life, all that culture mixed up much better than a bland society.
P.S I understand what James means, we are a Christian country.....Church of England...and of course we are not all Christians, many are NOT.....the laws are Christian based rather than Islamic based or any other religion. I am very interested in other religions but when symbles of Christianity are banned then I even get mad...no Nativity...No Christmas parties....No Bells ringing on SUnday (an area where I worked could not ring the church bells on SUnday due to complaints from other religions) I also know, many people from Non Christian religions, love and in fact "DO" Chritmas and why not??????
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at the moment it looks like if I were there on the 7th , I would end up like William Wallace . What with me wanting to wipe out all humankind !!! lol... Well ok , slight exaggeration there ...but anyway ..I really don't travel too well Annie . More than half an hour in a car these days and it takes forever for me to get back to normal . Also , my 4 dogs wouldn't take kindly to being left with anyone. The Weimarana will not be apart from me for more than an hour or so , she goes mental , totally out of control ...silly ole thing that she is.... But, never say never.... one day maybe ... you never know... ;D
cheers
Russ
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We all have the same basic needs just some of us are greedy...some hard working...some lazy...some could not care less and of course some just unable...I can be all at times ;) ;) ;)
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Ok so we own our own house and are not a burden on the state, but we are imigrants here in Brittany - welcomed by many and loathed by a few - and the stories some come out with about how all us rich rosbifs come over here to buy cheap houses, live like kings and live off the state. (A conondrom I admit). I hear exactly the same stories about Brits as you hear about other immigrants. Sadly there are one or two who claim for everything, work on the black, give the rest of us a bad name. It is odd being on the receiving end, especially when I pay my crippling social charges.
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If I was struggling to feed my children and there was a promise of a better life in another country I wouldn't hesitate to pack my bags and give it a go. On arrival I would do my damndest to do the best I could. I think that is where the problem is - how hard people try when they arrive i.e. finding a job, integrating into mainstream society, learning the language e.t.c. Then again there are some British families in this country that have relied on our welfare system for 3 generations!!! Some people grow never seeing anyone around them working and have no concept of the work ethic.
I think you have a point James, but whilst some immigrants are neer-do-wells others are genuine hard working honest people, just the same as we already have in our country.
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has anyone read the intro to Nigella's Christmas book? (it is the same subject - honest)
Anyway she talks very well about how the Christian feast of Christmas is overlaid onto the old pagan traditions of celebrating the cycle of life and the return of the sun etc. Seemingly it was Pope Julius I who thought that the best way to convert the population of Europe from paganism to christianity was to nick their favourite feast, so they could all become Christian without losing the best bits of paganism. The point is that for quite a while now people have migrated for a number of reasons. We generally think that the Romans did us a good turn but invading - I bet Boudicca didn't think so - anyway who stamped the Romans passports? or the vikings? or the saxons? not to mention William the conqueror and Mary Queen of Scots spoke French ..............
As far as I remember the Romans had a bit of a reputation for lying about, eating other people's food and generally being unpleasant. They were quite good at road design but hey, that led to cars which is bad.
I've got an idea why don't all of us TAS people take over Tuscany??? The weathers better, you can grow tomatoes outside and nobody could blame us for ditching Berlusconi actually we'd be doing the Italians a favour. They'd thank us in the end......
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P.S...a lot of us are immigrants or at least decendants of imigrants!!! People want a better, safe life and like animals, flee to safe places!!!! I came to Scotland!!! many of my ancestors left!!!!!
Exactly - my ancestors left Ireland for England in hard times, and I left England for Ireland in good times and brought a lot of money
back into the country, worked hard, taught teachers and kids in Irish schools, ran courses with FAS for the unemployed and also taught small businesses how to run their comanies on a computer and marketing skill - its what you bring, and what sort of life you want to live.
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The problem my friends, in my humble opinion, is that it is hard to separate the chaff from the wheat. Come one, come all I say, but if you're found not to be a genuine refugee, off home with you (one appeal, within 6 months), then away home with you. If you're a non national who commits a felony, away home with you. There are, after all, a small minority of foreign nationals from some countries who are exporting an arm of their mafia over here. Most foreign nationals I know miss home, are genuinely decent hard working people, but anyone found guilty of a felony should have their bags packed and be dispatched off home. Now for this to be successful you would need all manner of fingerprint, D.N.A and photographic data on the individual, to make sure that they never returned, and if they were found in the country again, to be repatriated immediately. The civil liberties people would have a hernia!
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I wasn't there (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Angels_and_Demons/holy-0070.gif)but the stories passed down through the generations were that they came across in boats to the mainland, rode down to the Borders, raided across the Border then herded the horses back up North, sold them on the way back to the shore and home on the boats again with whatever proceeds they had left after no doubt numerous visits to dens of iniquity en route. RESPECT! (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Respect/king-033.gif)
Annie - that is called Human Natures persistance to Survive - imagine living on Skye - eventually you would need things, and thieving horses to keep your faminly alive is far more acceptable than a lot of corruption and theft going on in the world these days just to feed themselves drugs!
AND remember, the people who they stole the horses from, probably stole them from someone else, it is a roundabout of the survival of the fittest, or was then, nowadays it how big an expenses claim they can get away with and how much profit they can make from the average Joe to feed themselves with bonuses.
When you go shopping, and you see 50% off and 75% 0ff - do you not realise that they are thieving from you when they charge you the full price - profit should be capped - then the world would not be in the mess it is in now!
Theft is never going to go away, identity theft, profit is theft when they can reduce an item by 75% - and they advertise it as if they are doing you a favour and are nice people - the truth is hard for a lot of people to see - but there is no one who can say the havent thieved something, even if it was a paperclip, someone elses words, a marketing statement from someone, a chip out of a friends supper - it happens all the time ;D
This studying social science gets you thinking ;D
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Bring back Enock Powell??!!
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"Rivers of Blood" maybe not that far away !!!
cheers
Russ
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One can have the same principles and ideals as a Christian without believing in Christ. I am also proud that we do not have to watch our backs every second, don't get dragged down to a Police Station for driving into a yellow hatched box - or anything else mildly illegal. I am glad that our police force protect me. I don't care what colour, creed, height, width, size of shoe, colour of hair or anything else anyone is or has, and so long as they do not take advantage of our system they are welcome to stay in my country. Truth to tell, my ancestors were immigrants from Skye where they were horse thieves ::)
[/quote
Good Lord, so were my partner's! Could it be that you and he may be cousins?!!
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Enoch Powells 'Rivers of Blood' speech 1968
The supreme function of statesmanship is to provide against preventable evils. In seeking to do so, it encounters obstacles which are deeply rooted in human nature.
One is that by the very order of things such evils are not demonstrable until they have occurred: at each stage in their onset there is room for doubt and for dispute whether they be real or imaginary. By the same token, they attract little attention in comparison with current troubles, which are both indisputable and pressing: whence the besetting temptation of all politics to concern itself with the immediate present at the expense of the future.
Above all, people are disposed to mistake predicting troubles for causing troubles and even for desiring troubles: "If only," they love to think, "if only people wouldn't talk about it, it probably wouldn't happen."
Perhaps this habit goes back to the primitive belief that the word and the thing, the name and the object, are identical.
At all events, the discussion of future grave but, with effort now, avoidable evils is the most unpopular and at the same time the most necessary occupation for the politician. Those who knowingly shirk it deserve, and not infrequently receive, the curses of those who come after.
A week or two ago I fell into conversation with a constituent, a middle-aged, quite ordinary working man employed in one of our nationalised industries.
After a sentence or two about the weather, he suddenly said: "If I had the money to go, I wouldn't stay in this country." I made some deprecatory reply to the effect that even this government wouldn't last for ever; but he took no notice, and continued: "I have three children, all of them been through grammar school and two of them married now, with family. I shan't be satisfied till I have seen them all settled overseas. In this country in 15 or 20 years' time the black man will have the whip hand over the white man."
I can already hear the chorus of execration. How dare I say such a horrible thing? How dare I stir up trouble and inflame feelings by repeating such a conversation?
The answer is that I do not have the right not to do so. Here is a decent, ordinary fellow Englishman, who in broad daylight in my own town says to me, his Member of Parliament, that his country will not be worth living in for his children.
I simply do not have the right to shrug my shoulders and think about something else. What he is saying, thousands and hundreds of thousands are saying and thinking - not throughout Great Britain, perhaps, but in the areas that are already undergoing the total transformation to which there is no parallel in a thousand years of English history.
In 15 or 20 years, on present trends, there will be in this country three and a half million Commonwealth immigrants and their descendants. That is not my figure. That is the official figure given to parliament by the spokesman of the Registrar General's Office.
There is no comparable official figure for the year 2000, but it must be in the region of five to seven million, approximately one-tenth of the whole population, and approaching that of Greater London. Of course, it will not be evenly distributed from Margate to Aberystwyth and from Penzance to Aberdeen. Whole areas, towns and parts of towns across England will be occupied by sections of the immigrant and immigrant-descended population.
As time goes on, the proportion of this total who are immigrant descendants, those born in England, who arrived here by exactly the same route as the rest of us, will rapidly increase. Already by 1985 the native-born would constitute the majority. It is this fact which creates the extreme urgency of action now, of just that kind of action which is hardest for politicians to take, action where the difficulties lie in the present but the evils to be prevented or minimised lie several parliaments ahead.
The natural and rational first question with a nation confronted by such a prospect is to ask: "How can its dimensions be reduced?" Granted it be not wholly preventable, can it be limited, bearing in mind that numbers are of the essence: the significance and consequences of an alien element introduced into a country or population are profoundly different according to whether that element is 1 per cent or 10 per cent.
The answers to the simple and rational question are equally simple and rational: by stopping, or virtually stopping, further inflow, and by promoting the maximum outflow. Both answers are part of the official policy of the Conservative Party.
It almost passes belief that at this moment 20 or 30 additional immigrant children are arriving from overseas in Wolverhampton alone every week - and that means 15 or 20 additional families a decade or two hence. Those whom the gods wish to destroy, they first make mad. We must be mad, literally mad, as a nation to be permitting the annual inflow of some 50,000 dependants, who are for the most part the material of the future growth of the immigrant-descended population. It is like watching a nation busily engaged in heaping up its own funeral pyre. So insane are we that we actually permit unmarried persons to immigrate for the purpose of founding a family with spouses and fiancés whom they have never seen.
Let no one suppose that the flow of dependants will automatically tail off. On the contrary, even at the present admission rate of only 5,000 a year by voucher, there is sufficient for a further 25,000 dependants per annum ad infinitum, without taking into account the huge reservoir of existing relations in this country - and I am making no allowance at all for fraudulent entry. In these circumstances nothing will suffice but that the total inflow for settlement should be reduced at once to negligible proportions, and that the necessary legislative and administrative measures be taken without delay.
I stress the words "for settlement." This has nothing to do with the entry of Commonwealth citizens, any more than of aliens, into this country, for the purposes of study or of improving their qualifications, like (for instance) the Commonwealth doctors who, to the advantage of their own countries, have enabled our hospital service to be expanded faster than would otherwise have been possible. They are not, and never have been, immigrants.
I turn to re-emigration. If all immigration ended tomorrow, the rate of growth of the immigrant and immigrant-descended population would be substantially reduced, but the prospective size of this element in the population would still leave the basic character of the national danger unaffected. This can only be tackled while a considerable proportion of the total still comprises persons who entered this country during the last ten years or so.
Hence the urgency of implementing now the second element of the Conservative Party's policy: the encouragement of re-emigration.
Nobody can make an estimate of the numbers which, with generous assistance, would choose either to return to their countries of origin or to go to other countries anxious to receive the manpower and the skills they represent.
Nobody knows, because no such policy has yet been attempted. I can only say that, even at present, immigrants in my own constituency from time to time come to me, asking if I can find them assistance to return home. If such a policy were adopted and pursued with the determination which the gravity of the alternative justifies, the resultant outflow could appreciably alter the prospects.
The third element of the Conservative Party's policy is that all who are in this country as citizens should be equal before the law and that there shall be no discrimination or difference made between them by public authority. As Mr Heath has put it we will have no "first-class citizens" and "second-class citizens." This does not mean that the immigrant and his descendent should be elevated into a privileged or special class or that the citizen should be denied his right to discriminate in the management of his own affairs between one fellow-citizen and another or that he should be subjected to imposition as to his reasons and motive for behaving in one lawful manner rather than another.
There could be no grosser misconception of the realities than is entertained by those who vociferously demand legislation as they call it "against discrimination", whether they be leader-writers of the same kidney and sometimes on the same newspapers which year after year in the 1930s tried to blind this country to the rising peril which confronted it, or archbishops who live in palaces, faring delicately with the bedclothes pulled right up over their heads. They have got it exactly and diametrically wrong.
The discrimination and the deprivation, the sense of alarm and of resentment, lies not with the immigrant population but with those among whom they have come and are still coming.
This is why to enact legislation of the kind before parliament at this moment is to risk throwing a match on to gunpowder. The kindest thing that can be said about those who propose and support it is that they know not what they do.
Nothing is more misleading than comparison between the Commonwealth immigrant in Britain and the American Negro. The Negro population of the United States, which was already in existence before the United States became a nation, started literally as slaves and were later given the franchise and other rights of citizenship, to the exercise of which they have only gradually and still incompletely come. The Commonwealth immigrant came to Britain as a full citizen, to a country which knew no discrimination between one citizen and another, and he entered instantly into the possession of the rights of every citizen, from the vote to free treatment under the National Health Service.
Whatever drawbacks attended the immigrants arose not from the law or from public policy or from administration, but from those personal circumstances and accidents which cause, and always will cause, the fortunes and experience of one man to be different from another's.
But while, to the immigrant, entry to this country was admission to privileges and opportunities eagerly sought, the impact upon the existing population was very different. For reasons which they could not comprehend, and in pursuance of a decision by default, on which they were never consulted, they found themselves made strangers in their own country.
They found their wives unable to obtain hospital beds in childbirth, their children unable to obtain school places, their homes and neighbourhoods changed beyond recognition, their plans and prospects for the future defeated; at work they found that employers hesitated to apply to the immigrant worker the standards of discipline and competence required of the native-born worker; they began to hear, as time went by, more and more voices which told them that they were now the unwanted. They now learn that a one-way privilege is to be established by act of parliament; a law which cannot, and is not intended to, operate to protect them or redress their grievances is to be enacted to give the stranger, the disgruntled and the agent-provocateur the power to pillory them for their private actions.
In the hundreds upon hundreds of letters I received when I last spoke on this subject two or three months ago, there was one striking feature which was largely new and which I find ominous. All Members of Parliament are used to the typical anonymous correspondent; but what surprised and alarmed me was the high proportion of ordinary, decent, sensible people, writing a rational and often well-educated letter, who believed that they had to omit their address because it was dangerous to have committed themselves to paper to a Member of Parliament agreeing with the views I had expressed, and that they would risk penalties or reprisals if they were known to have done so. The sense of being a persecuted minority which is growing among ordinary English people in the areas of the country which are affected is something that those without direct experience can hardly imagine.
I am going to allow just one of those hundreds of people to speak for me:
“Eight years ago in a respectable street in Wolverhampton a house was sold to a Negro. Now only one white (a woman old-age pensioner) lives there. This is her story. She lost her husband and both her sons in the war. So she turned her seven-roomed house, her only asset, into a boarding house. She worked hard and did well, paid off her mortgage and began to put something by for her old age. Then the immigrants moved in. With growing fear, she saw one house after another taken over. The quiet street became a place of noise and confusion. Regretfully, her white tenants moved out.
“The day after the last one left, she was awakened at 7am by two Negroes who wanted to use her 'phone to contact their employer. When she refused, as she would have refused any stranger at such an hour, she was abused and feared she would have been attacked but for the chain on her door. Immigrant families have tried to rent rooms in her house, but she always refused. Her little store of money went, and after paying rates, she has less than £2 per week. “She went to apply for a rate reduction and was seen by a young girl, who on hearing she had a seven-roomed house, suggested she should let part of it. When she said the only people she could get were Negroes, the girl said, "Racial prejudice won't get you anywhere in this country." So she went home.
“The telephone is her lifeline. Her family pay the bill, and help her out as best they can. Immigrants have offered to buy her house - at a price which the prospective landlord would be able to recover from his tenants in weeks, or at most a few months. She is becoming afraid to go out. Windows are broken. She finds excreta pushed through her letter box. When she goes to the shops, she is followed by children, charming, wide-grinning piccaninnies. They cannot speak English, but one word they know. "Racialist," they chant. When the new Race Relations Bill is passed, this woman is convinced she will go to prison. And is she so wrong? I begin to wonder.”
The other dangerous delusion from which those who are wilfully or otherwise blind to realities suffer, is summed up in the word "integration." To be integrated into a population means to become for all practical purposes indistinguishable from its other members.
Now, at all times, where there are marked physical differences, especially of colour, integration is difficult though, over a period, not impossible. There are among the Commonwealth immigrants who have come to live here in the last fifteen years or so, many thousands whose wish and purpose is to be integrated and whose every thought and endeavour is bent in that direction.
But to imagine that such a thing enters the heads of a great and growing majority of immigrants and their descendants is a ludicrous misconception, and a dangerous one.
We are on the verge here of a change. Hitherto it has been force of circumstance and of background which has rendered the very idea of integration inaccessible to the greater part of the immigrant population - that they never conceived or intended such a thing, and that their numbers and physical concentration meant the pressures towards integration which normally bear upon any small minority did not operate.
Now we are seeing the growth of positive forces acting against integration, of vested interests in the preservation and sharpening of racial and religious differences, with a view to the exercise of actual domination, first over fellow-immigrants and then over the rest of the population. The cloud no bigger than a man's hand, that can so rapidly overcast the sky, has been visible recently in Wolverhampton and has shown signs of spreading quickly. The words I am about to use, verbatim as they appeared in the local press on 17 February, are not mine, but those of a Labour Member of Parliament who is a minister in the present government:
'The Sikh communities' campaign to maintain customs inappropriate in Britain is much to be regretted. Working in Britain, particularly in the public services, they should be prepared to accept the terms and conditions of their employment. To claim special communal rights (or should one say rites?) leads to a dangerous fragmentation within society. This communalism is a canker; whether practised by one colour or another it is to be strongly condemned.'
All credit to John Stonehouse for having had the insight to perceive that, and the courage to say it.
For these dangerous and divisive elements the legislation proposed in the Race Relations Bill is the very pabulum they need to flourish. Here is the means of showing that the immigrant communities can organise to consolidate their members, to agitate and campaign against their fellow citizens, and to overawe and dominate the rest with the legal weapons which the ignorant and the ill-informed have provided. As I look ahead, I am filled with foreboding; like the Roman, I seem to see "the River Tiber foaming with much blood."
That tragic and intractable phenomenon which we watch with horror on the other side of the Atlantic but which there is interwoven with the history and existence of the States itself, is coming upon us here by our own volition and our own neglect. Indeed, it has all but come. In numerical terms, it will be of American proportions long before the end of the century.
Only resolute and urgent action will avert it even now. Whether there will be the public will to demand and obtain that action, I do not know. All I know is that to see, and not to speak, would be the great betrayal.
cheers
Russ
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it makes me laugh just to read such drivel.
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Although after 40 years of indoctrination , propaganda and political correctness , the speech may well 'sound' like drivel , I don't think it is to be laughed at . Some very salient points that he made in the speech, have come to pass , and may well do even more in the next few years .
Only this year , a few weeks back , did we have some very nasty scenes , that were possible igniter's of a smouldering pyre that Powell spoke of 41 years ago . Thankfully, they passed with relatively little effect. However, the seeds sown in 2005 are yet to grow to full fruition , the harvest of which will bring about possible catastrophic changes, termoil and maybe even as Powell mentioned , in effect , civil war.
The mass invasion that has been allowed to occur , in fact orchestrated , since 1997, makes what Enoch Powell saw happening almost a nonsense. The whole of 'British' culture is not just under attack, it is on the verge of total collapse. Even the people who began the multi racial propaganda of the 1960's , have realised that they didn't foresee the cultural swamp that they were creating , and that now with the open Europe free for all that EU membership/control has ordered upon us , the fragmented 'British culture', is a time limited commodity .
Enoch Powell made his speech in a time very different to ours now . America was having huge racial riots , Britain itself was only a very short time away from similar dire scenes of social collapse .There had been a massive upheaval among Hindu and Muslims in India/Pakistan leaving more than half a million dead. He predicted that this would happen here too , and 'sadly' he got most of it right .
The debate as to wether Enoch Powell was a racist or not is neither here nor there really , although he states clearly on many occasions that he was not , and whatever else he may have been, a liar isn't one of them !!.
Did he have all the answers ? ... no . But does anyone have them today either ?
cheers
Russ
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Thanks for the longest post ever
Where did you find it Russ - might need to refer to that in my exam, as that is exactly what is happening in Ireland
now europe has opened its doors and it would be interesting to use it as a comparison against statistics I have collected
on the infrastructure failings, culture differences, language and values problems that are being encountered and
need looking at by social scientists now.
Social scientists are needed to study these things and make preparations for dealing with the problems
that governments just ignore or do not see until it is too late - and thats progress - as long as it is funded
properly and used wisely - which remains to be seen as all social scientists that I have met/ studied so far
have just been academics and not actually employed to advise and steer the populations problems.
At the moment I am doing a piece on the fight between the human mans human desires and the norms, values and
laws in society that are keeping him repressed of his bodily needs - interesting one!!!
Julie
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Hello Julie,
I can't for the life of me remember which site I took it from . There are a number about , some have it edited though , and it needs to be read in it's entirety to make any sense at all . There are many sites that carry sections of the speech as I say , but many are racist sites , and steer the context, to suit their aims and prejudices . Others are the complete opposite ...it is an utter mine field ::).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP7fETsKYkA&feature=related
The above link covers most of the speech, as spoken by Powell himself . It also gives an insight into why he made the speech , the circumstances in Britain and the world at the time , and the resulting views of 'some' somewhat biased opinionators. But on the whole a reasonable stab at clarifying the speech and it's context.
Just found where I copied it from ....
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/3643823/Enoch-Powells-Rivers-of-Blood-speech.html
cheers
Russ
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my ancestors left Ireland for England in hard times,
technically the same here my great grandfather was born on the docks in ireland apparently so born in ireland, and move to England .
It is a Human need to move around !!! and to better themselfs.
Linz
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One can have the same principles and ideals as a Christian without believing in Christ. I am also proud that we do not have to watch our backs every second, don't get dragged down to a Police Station for driving into a yellow hatched box - or anything else mildly illegal. I am glad that our police force protect me. I don't care what colour, creed, height, width, size of shoe, colour of hair or anything else anyone is or has, and so long as they do not take advantage of our system they are welcome to stay in my country. Truth to tell, my ancestors were immigrants from Skye where they were horse thieves ::)
[/quote
Good Lord, so were my partner's! Could it be that you and he may be cousins?!!
Could be - who knows - my ancestors were Maclennans
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Was thinking about this topic whilst driving to work today.. It dawned on me that a large part of the reason why the UK has a more open immigration policy is because of the British Empire.
The old school would say that we want to welcome folk from 'the colony's' to honour our responsibility and (after all chaps they cook a dammed good curry, eh chaps?)
Whilst the post modernists would say that the govt is trying to get rid of a pile of national guilt.
I think I feel quite bit of that guilt, and feel that the white western countries have had their day and now it is the turn of the far east for a bit of supremacy. - ( trendy folk like sushi too)
Anyway - your provocation worked James, you got me thinking on another long boring car journey.
Got to have something to test the old grey matter.
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Well said Marigold. And whats wrong with being black anyway?
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Guilt? you honestly think the government feels any guilt for some of the crimes during the days of the empire???
the gates were opened not out of guilt, but as an expansion of the (now illegal) slave trading days and purely and simply to bring in cheap labour to do the jobs that tohe local peasants would no longer do (or better still - to do them for less thus leaving a few more shillings in the purse)
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The gates were opened to bring in cheap labour and bring down wages. I have no objections to immigrants who come here to work AND pay their taxes, but a large number have no intentions of doing that they are here simply to sponge off a pathetic labour Goverment. I live in a small village in an area of low wages, the local factories all employ foreign labour, I know of many school leavers who cannot get work in these places as they are British.
I took my daughter to London to see a show a few years ago and it was quite frightening the number of Eastern europeans who were begging from the people in the theatre queues.I would not go back as it was frightening to go out at night.
I had a Polish family living opposite me 4 adults and 1 child, they were all working when they rented the house, but within a few weeks they had given up their jobs and were no longer paying rent, they were running a car with no tax or insurance.
They used to send the little boy over to my door begging for money for petrol, electric or food. As it was a child I just found it too hard to say no so I used to give them eggs and sometimes a couple of pounds. The people who owned the house eventually got them out,although they said that it was their human right to stay. I know that both couples have each been given a house. They had their car taken off them by the police but as they have moved about 60 miles away they have another.
I know that this is only one case but I hear simmilar stories from people in other areas.
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When I came over here (I am an Aussie, father - Italian, mother - English) to marry by boyfriend (now ex husband), the unemployment benefits that I had accrued in Australia were transferred. I could then receive unemployment benefits as apposed to supplementary benefits. I found a job, part time but is was something, and have worked, paid taxes, National Insurance etc for the whole time I have lived here. Could this not apply to other people coming into this country? We ask for that country to cough up the money, IF THEY HAVE WORKED OVER THERE???!!!??? I suppose that this the stumbling block. From a personal point of view, I have never sponged off this country and hope to God never will. (This is not a personal attack on anything previously mentioned.) The one thing that P***** me off is the health care system. We went back to Australia for a holiday and OH got ill. Before we could see the doctor, we had to pay. We were given a form to take back and use to claim on our holiday health insurance. Maybe that is one thing we could tighten up on over here. On holiday, get ill, pay up. I'm sure you have to in other countries. Please correct me if I am wrong. Ros
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Hi Ros, off subject but hey its my thread. Does Australia have problems with dirty hospitals like we do over here? It seems that every other day some hospital is being condemned and criticised for their cleanliness.
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We were dealing with MRSA in the mid 1980's when I worked as a clerk in a hospital. They found it in the air conditioning filters of the operating theatres, (BIG OPPS!!). From then on, if a patient was transferred, they had to be screened before and given the all clear. My hospital (there are 5+ big hospitals in Brisbane) had a polish supervisor, Mrs Shuba. Everyone called her Mrs Shuba, even the Administrator. Mrs Shuba went around with white gloves. God forbid if anything was missed. That was the 1980s. I know it has changed now. But you have public health care, which is 80% paid and you have to stump up the other 20% yourself. (Similar to France). As for MRSA, it amazed me that it has only just hit the headlines over here now. We were dealing with it 2 decades ago. Don't countries talk to each other?? Ros
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I know several people who have never worked (in UK as well as here in France) and who either claim their benefits in UK and live in france or who claim benefits in France. In at least 3 of these cases the recipients work on the black as well as claiming. Its life.
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I know several people who have never worked (in UK as well as here in France) and who either claim their benefits in UK and live in france or who claim benefits in France. In at least 3 of these cases the recipients work on the black as well as claiming. Its life.
Yes, but it's also your money!
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It's gone mad in this country.
I have long advocated that, like Australia, we should be vetting all entries to this island, and only those who can make a valuable contribution to society and to the greater good should be allowed in.
There has long been a policy of social engineering operating in Scotland, where the government of Britain has actively encouraged non Scots to settle here, knowing that this is a very good method of creating a voter base which would effectively deny autonomy to the Scottish people. The only thing favourable about that is that most of those who came from other airts to settle here were workers who were genuinely following work.
Mention that to an Englishman, and the first thing he retorts is that there are very many Scots living in England................as if that atones for the loss of accomodation for our young folk, and the lack of opportunities for the indigenous population, not to mention the dilution of our culture, and the questioning of our right to express our opposition to such back door government.
One of the things which disturbs me most about the current invasion of our shores by the recently freed Eastern Europeans, is the number of dodgy characters who have appeared in our midst. In Scotland, there have been many crimes commited by immigrants. These range from simple theft, to rape, and even murder.
However, I have to be very careful in what I say about this, and to whom I say it, lest I become labelled racist.
My parents, who lived through the Enoch Powell era, were probably racist, like many in their generation, yet I have had to temper my response to the very things which they found objectionable, partly from a genuine wish to see us all as Jock Thamson's bairns, and partly through fear of becoming a pariah in my own land.
I sincerely wish that my children can be tolerant of the dismemberment of our culture, religious beliefs, and our society values, but I don't hold out much hope.
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What I find strange is
1 Dose where you are born determine where you are allowed to live? E.g the many slaves, cheap labour etc that were taken from their country of origin may one day choose to return to their roots....they will then be aliens/immigrants in that country.
2 Dose where you live make you more likely to be a criminal? When a place has a large proportion of non nationals, there are bond to be the criminals amongst honest people, they all will be subjected to all the criminals they meet to encourage them to work without permits, commit small and larger crimes such as prostitution for example
3 With modern transport and communications people can move around easier, so, if you move around and have children in several different countries and relations in several countries, are you and your family always immigrants.
5. Who actually owns a country?
Maybe you will all find these points silly, but I am back to my basic point of, wherever people live, they should contribute to the economy.
My last point, I have and my partner dose work with "immigrants" most are desperate to live a good life and work, most want to be safe, most prefer where they came from to provide them with a safe home, most will face racisum daily!!! We all could be and some of us are immigrants!!!Cogito ergo sum
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;)BL**DY H*LL!!!! must be all this Italian coffee I am drinking :o making me quote Latin!!!!!
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5. Who actually owns a country?
Maybe you will all find these points silly, but I am back to my basic point of, wherever people live, they should contribute to the economy.
I was in Las Vegas a few weeks ago and the bugger I got at Customs certainly thought he owned his country. Sorry to tease but he was mental.
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;D ;D
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Why do scots wish to preserve their autonomy and culture but don't want to hear about all the scots living and working (sometimes in very influential positions) in England.?
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Why do scots wish to preserve their autonomy and culture but don't want to hear about all the scots living and working (sometimes in very influential positions) in England.?
Unless I have missed soemthing, I thought we were all ONE country? Besides, if you are implying the loonies running the government - you are very welcome to keep them there ha ha.
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the loonies running the country are now in Brussels....the money grabbing puppets in London (the former UK Parliament and government ), are now there to just do as they are told , till the EU decide they no longer wish to waste all the money that London costs , and pocket that for themselves too.....
cheers
Russ
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Not sure how you get the correct people to run the country as voting dose not seem to work?
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Good point!
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well now it makes no difference anyway ....as the Former UK government have no power !!! You can vote for who you want in the EU government and it will make little difference either as they are told what to do by the EU commission , and they decide themselves who is a commissioner, not you or I. Democracy ....those were the days ....
cheers
Russ
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Ah, but Russ, we Scots have our own Parliament! And we will do just exactly fit we effin feel like daein, fit wey, cus we're aw heid the baws - (http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/MSN_Emoticons/MSN-Emoticon-soccer-115.gif)
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Do I sense a little irony there - annie?
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Just a tad, dear one, just a tad.(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/MSN_Emoticons/MSN-Emoticon-033.gif)
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I know several people who have never worked (in UK as well as here in France) and who either claim their benefits in UK and live in france or who claim benefits in France. In at least 3 of these cases the recipients work on the black as well as claiming. Its life.
Yes, but it's also your money!
So true
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My mum had a very simple attitude to life. No matter what culture or colour, if they were clean (personal higiene) and worked they were OK in her books. She came from one up from the slums of Liverpool in the 1930s and has always hated unwashed people. That was the way I was brought up. Not a bad attitude.
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Why do scots wish to preserve their autonomy and culture but don't want to hear about all the scots living and working (sometimes in very influential positions) in England.?
I can't speak for all Scots, obviously, but I personally don't really care how many Scots there are living and working in England, or how influential they may be. That is a potential problem for the English, should they wish to see it that way. The Midlothian Question suggests that they may find it a little irritating when it comes to voting in the great house, but I'm not sure how the man in the street feels.
The Scots have a good reputation across the world.
Why should Scots not want to preserve their culture, and wish to have autonomy?
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well said Aengus
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well the English,Welsh, Irish, and Scots can want as much as they want ...wether it be autonomy/Independence or whatever, the fact remains the Former UK is now part of the EU .
It will be up to EU commissioners how much power any former nation/state has , and if you read the Lisbon treaty/constitution that won't be much.
The EU is now on a roll to set up as a 'United States of Europe' if you like . It has always had an anthem and flag , now I have even heard it referred to as the EU National Anthem and National flag of the EU, by EU politicians . The final nail in the UK's coffin will be when the French and Germans take the London stock market apart , which they are already in the process of trying to do . Everything else (all the banks , building societies , what remained of any manufacturing industry we had ) is either being sold off to other EU members, or has been already . The stock market was the jewel in the UK's dwindling crown , having become one of the most powerfull markets in the world .
So enjoy whatever power you think you have, while you can , over the next year or so things are going to become very different . I don't mean that as a slur on any individual former country member, wether he/she be from Ireland, Scotland , Wales , N.Ireland or England , but just as a statement of fact . We do not have any individual political power left anymore , apart from what the EU Commission says we 'may' have.
cheers
Russ
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given that we are the 5th largest economic power, why is it all our good institutions are being bought over by French, German and Spanish companies?
why are we (British - for now!) not buying their prized assets?
always amazes me to hear that we are being assett stripped and sold off - can't believe that our businesses aren't buying up the opposition.
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Evolution!!! move onward and upward...good or bad the world is changing!!! Anyway, didn't the Romans do it all before???
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http://centurean2.wordpress.com/2009/03/23/your-country-almost-gone-enoch-powell-was-right-on-this-too-no-wonder-corrupt-mps-destroyed-the-mans-credibility-treated-like-suckers/
Many of the answers as to why are in the link above , or in links provided within the article. You could argue that it is very one sided view of what has happened and what is yet to happen . However if you read the article in full and check just a few of the links within, you will soon see by what has already happened and what we know is in the pipeline , that most , if not all ? ,of these events are being implemented .
Evolution ? you mean dictatorship Sandy surely ?
Cheers
Russ
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Oh *********
I had a bellyfull of politics at work today - Can't we talk about chickens?
Actually if you watch your chickens very carefully you can see much of the power play and xenophobia apparent in this thread in the chicken yard.
James - are you still there or did you go and read a book or something?
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I'm here and I'm not reading a book or anything. I have just wrapped my Secret Santa pressie.
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Oh *********
I had a bellyfull of politics at work today - Can't we talk about chickens?
Actually if you watch your chickens very carefully you can see much of the power play and xenophobia apparent in this thread in the chicken yard.
James - are you still there or did you go and read a book or something?
I'm still here, sitting back and watching the debate. Actually went to bed lastnight and thought I had signed out of here but when I came back on this morning I was still logged in for some reason...
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I bet this same argument went on from the beginning of time!!! never ending story. Like all species, our basic instinct is to protect ourselves and our families, be aware of strangers, things unfamiliar to us, changes that may threaten our life's etc. I try to think with empathy, looking at things from others prospectives, think in their shoes. I know the powerful in any group will rule, that again needs to be, for better or worse, democracy, dictatorship or communist, there is little, myself as an individual can/will do.....just fingers crossed, head in a bucket and enjoy what you can!!!
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I bet this same argument went on from the beginning of time!!! never ending story. Like all species, our basic instinct is to protect ourselves and our families, be aware of strangers, things unfamiliar to us, changes that may threaten our life's etc. I try to think with empathy, looking at things from others prospectives, think in their shoes. I know the powerful in any group will rule, that again needs to be, for better or worse, democracy, dictatorship or communist, there is little, myself as an individual can/will do.....just fingers crossed, head in a bucket and enjoy what you can!!!
Not literally I hope Sandy, these days are long gone ha ha ha.
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;D ;D(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Battle/axe.gif)
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Whoops sorry folks - had a bit of a bad day yesterday. Nice day at work today.
I think that you are right Sandy - it is an old debate and thank goodness we are all still prepared to get involved in the debate
What's the next contentious subject?
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Individuals do change things though. The Tolpuddle Martyrs, Suffragettes, loads more but brain too tired to remember. (Yes I know they were not actually one individual but they came together and made changes)
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true true, Ghandi, Nelson Mandella,
What about Rosa Parkes?
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Who is Rosa Parkes?
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Who is Rosa Parkes?
some lassie who refused to sit at the back of the bus!! Led to a bit of bother in the states in the 60's and culminated in the earth shattering appointment of Barrck Hussein Obama as president last year!!
HOORAY!!
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Ah, I did know the name after all, thanks.
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My second daughter is named after her. It may have been a mistake in retrospect. My Rosa is a bossy stubborn little tike. Mind you I suppose its difficult to change the world without a bit of gumption. :)
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And I think the world needs a change...
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I'll tell her......
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I'll tell her......
Her indeed.
The world is fat, bloated and lumbers around the solar system while ignoring anything that's passing by ... the world is clearly a middle aged bloke too intent on getting the special offer on whisky at the local supermarket to pay attention to anyone else getting in his way.
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The world is fat, bloated and lumbers around the solar system while ignoring anything that's passing by ..
This is me - who's the bloke?
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I'm going to take the 5th ...... planet from the left.