The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: sanman on November 19, 2009, 01:44:34 pm
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Just been called by a planning officer who has informed me that I need planning consent for my poultry house, pig ark etc and even the fencing because its closer than 400 metres to the nearest house.
Now I've found comment to this for Intensive Livestock Units but can't find any other reference.
Can anyone help?
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I know they have this rule with stables, although many are passed as ok, even if they are closer than the 400m. There is also a rule about stables being back from highways.
I was not aware that poultry houses came under this rule. I mean, people have hen sheds in their gardens, and also pig sheds etc. and they have neighbours either side?
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Mark, is this a problem in the pipeline for most people with animal housing and fences? is it a local thing? in which case there would be a lot of us who do not comply. is the planning officer applying rules for commercial units to smallscale keepers? bloody hell this could be the end of all backyard hens,pigs,pigeons aviaries etc .
who was the planning officer? I will do a bit of investigating. Oh is a partner in the commercial property dept of a big national law firm.let's roll out the cavalry.
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This is the advice I was given by our planning department:
The tests of whether PP is required in this case are basically:
Is the building for an agri purpose on an agri unit of more than 0.4Ha?
Would the building plus any others erected in the last 2 years exceed 265sqm?
Would any part of the building be within 25m of a metalled portion of a classified road?
Would the height of the building exceed 12m?
If the answer is NO to all of these questions, then no PP is required. Hope that helps.
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Would question whether you have actually been called by a real planning officer -it would be highly unusual for one to call and accuse over the phone, rather than phone to arrange a visit.
Have you upset a neighbour??
From my basic understanding :
Fence - under 6 ft you can do anything as long as your deeds allow (e.g. some estates forbid fencing)
Pig ark and chicken house- as long as moveable, is a temprary structure eg http://www.nationalbuildings.co.uk/mobile_field_shelters.asp
Also look at the guide on this site :
http://www.communities.gov.uk/publications/planningandbuilding/farmersguide
Let us know what happens
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PS
How did the conversation end??
The next logical step wouyld be a visit, followed by an enforcement notice if they believed you contrvened.
Simply telling you to remove over the phone would not happen, officialdom doesn't act like that !!
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I got an official very threatening letter.
Upon phoning him he stated that any animal housing needed planning permission if it was on agricultural land and less than 400metres from the nearest house.
I had orginally phone the planning office up asking for advice and they stated any timber movable structure did not require planning permission. Intestingly my wife phoned again this afternoon and was given the same advice.
However this officer is insisting that it is a problem and that we require planning consent. We have a field shelter, two pig arcs and two small poultry sheds which are approximately 250 metres away from the nearest house. He even stated that we needed planning consent for fences as he classified them as animal housing. When I stated that some of the fences were electrical and were easily moved to allow us to rotate the pasture for the poultry, he stated we would need to get planning permission every time we moved the fence at @ £175 per shot.
He seemed to have a major bee in his bonnet about us being a 'community' farm and accused us of having plans to build roads across the field and erect toilets and changing rooms.
I fail to see why planning permission would be needed for a couple of pig arks and poultry sheds, none of which are larger than 10' * 6' - this is in a 6.5 acre field!
Carl any help/advice on this matter would be really appreciated,. As you may imagine this is causing a major amount of stress at the moment.
I have arranged to meet the planning officer in the morning so will let you know the outcome.
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speak to his manager and your councillors.
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I agree, this is highly irregular. If you are unhappy with the way he is conducting business with you, then you have the right to contact his superior. I have done that and it works. I had a letter of apology and an overturn of the instructions within 48 hours.
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Upon phoning him he stated that any animal housing needed planning permission if it was on agricultural land and less than 400metres from the nearest house.
Whats the difference between "agricultural land" and a property with cph?
Is it to do with size, or usage? just wondered!
Sounds like you've got a 'jobsworth' there Sanman.
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sounds very much like nonesense to me
We have an agric holding.
we errected fencing, have 14 pig arcs, 27 small chicken huts, 1 large straw shelter, and a 60X50 barn.
we did not need planning for any of it, just prior notification for the barn,
do some research on the net, moveable structures do not need planning, unless they are polytunnels,
the only other thing could be something to do with the near housing, however i know farmers who have estates near them and as far as i am aware same rules apply. Local councils have different interpritations of the rules. If you have a good agricultural agent near they will be able to advise. We used brown and co, not sure if they are in your area.
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The animal housing within 400m is sort of correct.
It does need some picking apart though
rule a - if temporary and movable (eg pig ark) then no permission needed - the stuff about fences is totally off the wall
rule b - if fixed, and within 400M of another property then full permission needed unless it is only to house animals during birth and/or inclemenet weather, so if only for inclement and birthing, then agricultural permssion needed (30 day rule). we did this for our lambing shed.
Agree with others this planning officer is way OTT, get their supervisot involved. If you are totally wrong in every respect (and I don't think you are) you cannot be any worse off by appealing higher up, so theer is nothing to lose.
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Sorry brain not working in unison tonight so second PS
If you don't get an immedaite resolution would be worth paying to get experts on your side.
This firm are nationwide
http://www.acorus.co.uk/contact/team.php
Have seen many articles by them in "South East Farmer" and whilst do not have persoanl experience they seem to know what they are on about for smallholders as well as the big boys.
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The letter from the planning officer reads:
Unauthorised use of land advertised as *************** Community Farm
I write in connection with the above peice of land and seek clarification of its intended use.
The housing of the animals on the above mentioned land, together with the associated wooden structures, require planning consent owing to their distance between the animals and the residential properties. I am concerned that as the animals and the piece of land are currently being marketed as a community farm, you maybe wishing to erect further structures to satisfy health and safety issues and to provide access into the field.
Whilst keeping a small number of animals on the land on the peice of land may be acceptable if a planning application were submitted, I am concerned that any further development maybe unacceptable due to the Green Belt status of the land.
I would appreciate it if you can contact me to clarify the situation either by phone or in writing. I should warn you, however, that if I haven't heard anything from you in the next 14 working days, I will have to start formal enforcement procedures.
The above comments are officer opinions only and do not prejudice any future decisions taken by the Local Planning Authority.
As far as I can see the mention of Green Belt is a complete red herring, as the 400 metre rule that he's quoting is in a completely different peice of planning guidance.
His real hangup seems to be what we may want to do in the future. However surely we can't be held accountable for something we haven't done?
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Sounds like they are covering themselves for something that you may or indeed may not, do in the future.
Are you in the green belt? We are on the edge of a national park, and in an area of outstanding beauty ....and have a lot of rules. We cannot even put up a field shelter without planning permission, and even that is turned down if they feel like it.
Do you think a neighbour has complained? If so, the council have to follow this up. I would ask for a site visit, to discusss exactly what the problem is. I cannot see that pig arcs and poultry sheds need permission, even in my strict area!! The area of land you are on is big enough for agricultrual use. Sometimes they get people on the fact that they need change of use for a plot of land, if its been used for some other purpose......
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Hi Roxy
Yes its Green Belt, but in terms of agricultural use I think the green belt status of the land is irrelevant. We have had a neighbour complain, he also complained about school children planting apple trees in the park ???
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even if a neighbour has complained, for whatever reason, it has to be justified ... they have to have valid reasons for their complaint surely. I know there are now issues relating to what you will do with manure from your animals, siting of muck heaps etc.....
You need to find out exactly what the problem is, and hopefully work with the council to sort things out. I have noticed a lot of retrospecitve planning applications in our area, when people have put up field shelters etc, and then been reported. It seems some people have nothing better to do than comlain about things.
I do hope you have a good outcome to your problem.
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so its now against the rules to keep animals on a farm in the greenbelt. what a load of manure. would they prefer it to be a bit of waste land.
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You know what they say,"the devil is in the detail". officer opinions only? he has also jumped from what you are doing to being concerned about what you might do. Is there a difference between a smallholding and a farm?
Have you asked him what you can do, rather than him guess what you might do and get his planners knickers in a twist. Who has pushed his buttons? As a guess I would think your neighbour conflict has something to do with it. Ask heeley city farm if they have had any issues? I will pass all this info onto my wife and my friend rob who is in the same department. not saying they have the time to do anything right now, but maybe point you in the direction of someone who can.
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Well we met the planning officer. We no longer need planning permission for the pig arcs, poultry houses or fencing, surprise surprise.
He wants to check case law on the field shelter. This is a timber shelter on skids with towing points. I've pointed out that it has no foundation and can be moved and that twice now planning officers have advised that PP isn't required.
I think commonsense has prevailed, we should get his decision by next Wednesday.
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common sense at last from a planning officer. dialogue usually helps resolve most things. did he come and see for himself, before or after his letter?
field shelters are usually allowed in most circumstances, and can often be a way of providing shelter for all sorts of stuff, not just horses. have you noticed the field shetler further down loxley road with horses one side and logs the other.
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Really pleased to hear that it looks like being resolved .
The real shame is that officials feel the need to write letters in such threatening tone, causing people who are persuing legitimate activities much anguish, particularly since the letter makes several adamant statements that are wrong. >:(
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So glad it seems to be resolved. What a pity all this came after HFW's visit - you could have had celebrity support....
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We've now been notified that complaints have been made to the Animal Control Officer ??? and environmental health, due to the open day that we held ??? ??? I have a meeting with the environmental health officer on Monday.
Allegations have been made regarding infectious disease control and children being allowed in the pig pens. Interestingly enough, all visitors to the farm had to work across a mat with Defra approved disinfectant. We had notices all round the animals pens requesting that people didn't feed the animals and each animal pen had at least one NHS approved hand sanitiser. We also provided hand washing facilities at a nearby, community building.
All these complaints are from two individuals - we are keeping a log of this and its likely we will pursue an injunction against them for harassment >:(
The joys of sharing your smallholding with the wider community ::) ::) ::)
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(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Confused/stupid.gif)
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Am I right in assuming that the complainants were at your open day? It sounds to me like you took all the necessary precautions that are needed nowadays when allowing the public access to your livestock.
Pleased you have sorted out your planning issues. As to the field shelter, as I understand it from our planning people, you have to be able to prove the shelter can be moved, if requested to do so. And there must not be a solid floor, or concrete frontage to the field shelter. I know our council do not like these shelters, but doubt there is much they can do, as they are not permanent buidlings.
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Why oh why oh why wont these so called do gooders go find some one who is in dire need of reporting for animal abuse or cruelty, rather than wind themselves up about someone who is actually doing something good in the community and encouraging decent animal husbandry.
You are very unlucky with your neighbours!!!!
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It sounds like the complainants are getting a bit obsessive, if it is the same ones. it must be making them ill, all this worrying about living near the countryside, what with wild birds being allowed to fly over their gardens and poo. do they insist on the postman crossing a bio security mat when delivering their mail, which then has to be quarantined? i am becoming concerned for their mental wellbeing, poor souls. By any chance was it the couple who came to the open day with a dog, ignored all the goings on except to mutter, took the dog across the field near to the bees, where it had a motion( they did bag it), they then walked back through and bu*****d off. keep focussed on the bigger picture and these tiny minded little nimbys will self implode in a mass of bile. i hope it's lyndsay from environmental health, she will sort it out.( get the council to send the complainants a bill for all the time spent sorting out their paranoid follies). keep the faith, these times will pass soon and common sense will prevail.
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Hi Carl
Lyndsay has already visited - outcome, she doen't need to see us for another 5 years!!
We know that we are doing everything right, the risk assessment for the open day was huge!!
We have sent an email to our local authority asking them if any other council departments would like to attend the farm and inspect us so we can get it all out of the way. What's really funny is that we had a small grant from our council to set up and we have had meetings with one of the council departments who would like to get people with physical and educational disabilities involved with the project.
We are not a huge concern, 9 pigs, 7 chickens, 8 ducks, 29 turkeys, 4 beehives and an acre of veg on a 6.5 acre field can hardly be described as intensive farming.
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In business i have found that when things are quiet, ie in recessions, we get more intensive visits from hse etc, as they have less people to visit and have to appear to keep busy or their jobs may be cut. you just have to comply and keep going forward. you are all intelligent people with good common sense, you will naturally do things in a safe and sensible manner. they will notice that straight away and once the novelty of having a new kid in the playground to show off to has gone they should only pop up on a helpful basis. these things are sent to try us and what does not kill us makes us stronger. i have had a year of things going a bit wrong, but it just helps confirm your belief in your own strengths and more determined to keep going towards what you want to acheive. maybe nil not a huge agricultural concern, but very important to everyone concerned. in a few weeks, when you taste the pork,the turkey and the veg, together on the xmas table you wil know you have done a very good thing. nil carberundum illigitimii, as my grandad used to say.
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nil carberundum illigitimii
(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/hahaha-024.gif)(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/hahaha-024.gif)
Mine did too! well, actually, my Grandma! Don't let the B4et4r4e grind you down(http://smileys.on-my-web.com/repository/Laughing/hahaha-024.gif)
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Well we've just had our visit from Environmental Health and .................
No issues, they were extremely enthusiastic about what we are doing. ;D ;D
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all is good!
now if only you could sort out the weather. ;)
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now if only you could sort out the weather. ;)
If you are going to work miracles would you mind getting the sun to shine here please