The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Land Management => Topic started by: Pundyburn Lynn on August 21, 2014, 03:07:18 pm
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Hello folks,
I never know which heading to post these things under.
We now have finance in place to buy some farmland for smallholding, although suitable land is quite difficult to find in Perthshire and Stirlingshire. Meanwhile, we are beginning to think about our business plan, which is essential under local policy if agricultural accommodation is to be considered. We initially plan to keep pigs and poultry to supply meat directly to butchers, restaurants and end users, as well as live stock to other smallholders.
The figures for a business plan would be readily accessible but quite laborious to collate. I wondered if there is anyone out there doing a similar thing? Does anyone have an example business plan with figures that you would be willing to share through PM or email?
As usual, I would be awfully grateful!
Lynn
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Hi, well done raising finance to buy land, if you can do that you'll have no problem doing a business plan! I found a couple of plans by looking on the councils planning applications when I saw someone doing what I wanted to do so may be worth a trawl through. There are templates free to download which do all the calculations if you input the numbers, then all you need is the gift of the gab to fill in the boxes!
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See, this is why i ask - I hadn't even thought about the planning portals. Next question - does anyone know of a successful smallholding that's recently been granted planning?
I will also check tinterweb for downloadable stuff,
Many thanks!
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Planning for what? Accommodation? I can't see you getting that for a smallholding to be honest. Unless you can prove that you have need to be there 24/7 and a profitable business. Maybe possible but I've never seen it happen (as a parish Councillor).
My mate up the road owns 44 acres and rents another 150, is a full time farmer and had a hell of a job getting planning for a house, even with the local council behind him. They have been living in a static caravan for a few years and even that was a struggle, planning wise.
Best thing to do would be to grow your hedges nice and high and get on with it.
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theres not much profit in pigs, especially if selling to a butcher - and you will possibly need alot of red tape to sell chicken meat unless you have a processing farm near by, so i cant see much profit there either.
but if its your dream - go for it.
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Hi folks,
Sorry I missed the last two responses.
Stereo - in Scotland in several local authorites they WILL grant planning on agricultural land as long as you can demonstrate that you have a sound and solid business plan. This has happened on many occasions and was not what my post was trying to argue. I just wondered if anyone was willing to share the details of their business plans. Neither do I plan to make profit on Pigs!! Any development will be for subsistence purposes - just for our own eating. However, we did make a fortune last year on the eggs from 50 hens...
I was purely looking for the details.
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We initially plan to keep pigs and poultry to supply meat directly to butchers, restaurants and end users, as well as live stock to other smallholders.
Neither do I plan to make profit on Pigs!!
??? ???
are you wanting to run a not-for-profit charity then? why would you want to supply butchers and restaurants etc and not aim to make a penny?
i dont understand why many people on here become a bit offended if you mention making profit but the other options are breaking even or subsidising somebody else with your time and energy and money - which isnt sustainable year after year unless you are well off. self-suffiency is a different ball game.
or did i mis-understand and you are just going to pretend to run a business purely to get Planning?
if so a place up here build a new equestrian centre but they werent allowed to build their house for, i think, 3 yrs as they had to prove their was a viable business - which it was.
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Shygirl - I think much of the issue is that many of those that buy small holdings, never actually need to make the land pay. How else could you justify 8-10000 an acre for a few acres, no business plan, short of building houses will make any real money on that sized patch at that cost. It's less about making a sustainable, profitable, rural business, as turning a bit of agricultural land, into a garden, with animals. . . with a nice new house in the middle.
Not aimed at the o.p!
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And I have a friend near Lanark with 20 acres who wanted to build a house on it so she could be near her animals, sheep, a couple of pigs and hens., Even after various enviro reports, business plans (done by me), agri consultant reports etc it wa refused at the end of three gruelling years, and she went up a couple of days later to find one of her pigs had lumps cut off it - a vagrant they presumed as one had been seen wandering around.- poor tame friendly beast had to be put down, permission still refused.
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The whole idea is to be sustainable, not necessarily making mega-bucks. There are different policies in different local authorities that allow for this. For instance, perth and kinross allow for eco projects where the land use sustains the household. Stirling allows for sustainable living projects.
I have no intention of 'screwing the system', and that's quite a harsh conclusion to jump to. Nor am I interested in smallholding purely to build a house. We've had livestock and growing our own food for years. I hadn't realised that by asking for data I would be opening myself up to such criticism.
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its not criticism i just didnt understand what information you were asking for. :hug: i still dont so i look forward to learning something new in this thread! :D
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i just didnt understand what information you were asking for. :D
Neither do I and from the other posts neither does anyone else .... maybe a better explanation of exactly what you are asking could help?
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Simple question "Does anyone have an example business plan with figures that you would be willing to share through PM or email? "
Don't know why there was any discussion.
I'll PM you some links that might help as I did someone else a few days ago.
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Yay! Thank you Doganjo!
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I can see and understand where you are coming from,
you can make enough from 20 acres, to make a profitable business, there is one guy who makes a living from one acre….it totally depends on your outlook and business skills….most small holders , without being offensive, will not need to run their smallholding as a business, as you will read on many threads, many will have a trust box at the gate selling a few eggs and veg…that is not a business, that is simply making a few bob to pay towards the chicken feed or buy a few more plants
i do agree that the rules of getting planning should be hard, as everyone who could afford land would be buying up and building a house, yet on the other hand, i also believe, if someone is running a good profitable agriculture business, and using the land for farming, then they should at least be in with a shout….
as for the business, why would you sell your produce to butchers, hotels etc etc when you could after obtaining the right paperwork, sell to the public direct… to make the business work, you will need to Brand your own produce..why work hard for others to make the profit from your hard work…
i am not a lover of business plans, simply because they are just predictions….but i guess they could be used to reach targets… just look at the banks and councils, i bet they never planned to pay back millions on PPI loans, or in the case of the councils, have their budgets cut by millions….
if you are going down that route… take time out to think about the business…the Brand name will be key.
and if you need to write a business plan…. take some time out 1st , research how your brand will need to succeed,
think about marketing, advertising, location,
:fc: research research research….
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John and Helen,
What good advice! We are chipping away at the business plan while we wait for suitable land to come up. We've done most of the number crunching and KNOW that even with a poor outcome we can make enough of an income out of our venture to support our modest and well-honed way of life.
It's just a horribly frustrating waiting game now... Where is all the land???
Lynn
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John and Helen,
what is the guy doing on his land to make a living from 1 acre?
cheers
David
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Beekeeping?
I regularly pass a small plot where someone has his shepherd's hut surrounded by bee hives. I'm not sure how many as the whole plot isn't visible but there must be at least twenty or so. Whether that's commercial or not, I wouldn't know but it certainly looks as though he's not just doing it for fun. Well, of course he's doing it for fun but it seems to be on a level that's not quite for fun alone, if you get my drift.
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John and Helen,
What good advice! We are chipping away at the business plan while we wait for suitable land to come up. We've done most of the number crunching and KNOW that even with a poor outcome we can make enough of an income out of our venture to support our modest and well-honed way of life.
It's just a horribly frustrating waiting game now... Where is all the land???
Lynn
Do you have any specific intention in mind as to what you want to do? There's plenty of land for sale at all times but clearly the land you buy shapes the activity. There's any number of business plans available to look at through a Google search but really it comes down to what you plan to do. Funnily enough, I started my business with no plan. Just a couple of cardboard boxes I threw the papers into. I didn't even bother to register for VAT. I treated the whole thing as an exercise in serendipity and for the most part it worked. Most of my calculations were done on scraps of paper or in an exercise book I always carried around. I'm certainly not advising that approach but what I would say is that a strong vision founded on a good idea will carry you a long, long way.
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John and Helen,
what is the guy doing on his land to make a living from 1 acre?
cheers
David
i will try to find the link… its either veg boxes or cut flowers , but i remember he did it all in polytunnels
also he was selling direct, cutting out the middleman …which makes a massive difference
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We've done most of the number crunching and KNOW that even with a poor outcome we can make enough of an income out of our venture to support our modest and well-honed way of life
Good luck but I think reality might be somewhat different from some numbers on a piece of paper.
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Of course, so call it what it really is: a "Business Guess". You can then have an optimistic Business Guess, and a pessimistic one. If the world doesn't end should your pessimistic guess come to pass, maybe it's worth giving it a bash!
I went to a business startup seminar recently, and some folks seemed convinced that writing something in their business plan would miraculously make it happen. One couple had written in their plan that they would both be working in their new shop 10 hours a day, seven days a week "because this is our dream, and we're committed". Good luck guys! :o
I guess what I'm trying to say is don't let your fears get in the way of your dreams, but do be realistic!!
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This post repeatedly veers towards the negative. We are very clear about what we want to do and the land that we want to buy and could probably move forward with only a couple of 'back of the envelope' sums. However, we want to live on our land. This is permitted in a small number of local authorities within Scotland, as long as you can provide a projected business plan. This has to include optimistic, pessimistic and average outcomes and has to be deemed viable by an agricultural consultant.
I suppose that those of you who have had to justify their existence in this way will know exactly what I was looking for and might have been able to help. I've certainly had several very helpful pm's in response (and for those I am very grateful). I'm glad to say that we've now managed to complete the necessary business plan and are focused on finding suitable land. Onwards!
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This post repeatedly veers towards the negative. We are very clear about what we want to do and the land that we want to buy and could probably move forward with only a couple of 'back of the envelope' sums. However, we want to live on our land. This is permitted in a small number of local authorities within Scotland, as long as you can provide a projected business plan. This has to include optimistic, pessimistic and average outcomes and has to be deemed viable by an agricultural consultant.
I suppose that those of you who have had to justify their existence in this way will know exactly what I was looking for and might have been able to help. I've certainly had several very helpful pm's in response (and for those I am very grateful). I'm glad to say that we've now managed to complete the necessary business plan and are focused on finding suitable land. Onwards![/size][/font]
Well done you! My friend with the 20 acres has just been told that after 7 years struggling to get permission she may be at the point of getting there, but a planner has suggested she goes down the route of dog breeder rather than smallholding! Apparently because so many people are trying that angle! So it's back to the drawing board for us with her business plan. She IS a dog breeder but it never occurred to us she'd get permission that way. So the only additional advice i have is to think outside the box - and look inwards as the answer may be there! :excited:
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That's absoultely mad! Are there too many smallholdings perhaps? Are we taking over the countryside like some kind of rural Starbucks? ???
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The way i see it down here in east Devon, is, many of the traditional farms are being sold off,
many will be split into lots, the farmhouse and maybe an acre or two will be purchased by some wealthy person, who has no interest in farming, but just wants that slice of countryside and space and maybe the odd chicken
the other lots, providing they are flat, normally fill up with horses…
I would love to see more smallholdings, especially if they where selling their produce,
the sad truth is, you can buy meat cheaper in a supermarket…ok, you don't get the quality or taste, but the price is low….just look at the price of a leg of lamb from new zealand….. thats all down to all the rules, regs a and costings of this country…yet when people buy local produce, they say it tastes wonderful ::)
our councils will try to stop you building on your land, even if you are small scale farming, yet grant permission to supermarkets for out of town shopping zones, at the same time, killing the high street, resulting in a town full of charity shops
the village life is changing, houses have become so expensive , only those with well paid jobs can afford to buy, often leaving the locals to move to towns..
I don't think there are enough smallholdings that run as a business, and with the mentality of the councils, i can understand why…no doubt, most of them do their shopping in the out of town supermarkets ..
i would say, go for your dream Lynn…you, as any of us, deserve to have our little bit of British countryside, especially if you are intending to restore or upkeep british farming, its a shame the people who govern this nation and counties, don't have the same amount of backbone, that this nation once had……
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Our small farm is one of those you describe and when the surrounding farmers heard we were actually intending to farm it and not park ponies on it they couldn't have been more welcoming and helpful. The single storey stone barn had already been converted to a shop and tea room by the previous owners, who had an open pig farm, so we further converted it into a holiday cottage to give a bit of income while we built up the livestock side of things. Now we specialise in rare breeds - sheep, pigs, poultry, turkeys - and sell eggs from the farmgate and are soon to start selling pork and lamb. As soon as they get bTB sorted in this area we'll go back to calf-rearing too. If you work hard, keep a close eye on profitability, don't continue doing something that's not working for you and freely admit you have a lot to learn .... it can work. You'll never be rich but you could well be happy!
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'You'll never be rich but you could well be happy'
Well said marches farmer!!!
Life's not a dress rehersal :yippee:
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There is of course, David Acreman's 'Field to Farm' concept which I think has been reviewed on here in the past. I'm not familiar with it myself but I believe it is aimed squarely at those with small acreage but no planning and who wish to end up living on their own land.
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Good luck Lyn and hope that you find a plot and achieve all you want to achieve.
reading this post it strikes me that it would be fascinating to do a straw pole and establish just how many members run their small holdings for profit , to move towards self sufficiencey or as a hobby that they self fund.
My guess is that some would tick all 3 boxes so one would have to qualify each category better than I have outlined.