The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: trish.farm on June 24, 2014, 07:04:19 pm
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Advice please. My ram and his friend are on loads of grass, turned out there 4 weeks ago. Shorn ages ago, not outward signs of illness, no flystrike. Ram has lost serious weight over the last week, now looks like a skeleton. He is scouring, quite weak and not really interested in food. Have wormed him this evening and crossed my fingers that it doesnt tip him over the edge. Any other illness or disease that could cause rapid weight loss. His friend is fine, fat and healthy. Many thanks.
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Copper poisoning, teeth, worms, perhaps he s found a toxic plant...whatever it is I hope he improves for you xx
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Liver fluke?
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You could try him with a little ivy, as most sheep even poorly ones will hardly ever turn it down.
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Fluke.
Could be Johnnes - but I wouldn't have thought that would be so sudden.
Good luck :hug:
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Hmmm, wormed him tonight but not with fluke wormer, read the bottle and it said dont give to animals in poor condition, now i will have to worm him again in the morning with fluke wormer and the poor boy will be swimming in wormer!! I knew something like this would happen this week. We go away for 1 week every year to the Scilly Isles, its taken me 3 weeks to prepare to go away this weekend, military organisation to get the right people to look after sheep, lambs, cows, calves, chickens, horses, 60 livery horses, 2 dogs (taking 2 with us) and the house. Now i am going to be panicing about my ram!!! Do you think worming again with fluke will be too much??
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Personally I wouldn't give him a second dose. Can you take him to the vet for a check over?
Enjoy the Scillies, lovely place. :fc: he is ok.
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Firstly, give him a flukicide, not a combination fluke / wormer. Even then, bluntly, in his condition, and on top of such a worming dose, it might kill him. But if it is fluke, by the sound of it, you need to treat aggressively anyway. So the concern is that it's not fluke, and the meds kill him. If the alternative is Johnnes, he won't recover anyway :'(.
There are some other worms, which may or may not be treated by the treatment you gave him. For instance, coccidiosis (though adult sheep are normally immune), or barber pole worm (which I have read about but not experienced.)
And as others have said, there could be poisoning. Or other digestive upset.
Might be worth phoning the vet to see if they help you do a diagnosis, or maybe offer a FEC or something, or advise on best option flukicide if they think that's the best course of action.
Again, good luck :hug:
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Just googled Johnnes disease and he looks just like the pictures on all the write ups. Anyone got any experience of this? I understand there is no cure etc etc. It is obviously a bacteria in the pasture, how long does this bacteria affect the pasture? Will his mate have it too?? Paddock hasnt been grazed since 1st of April but i had a very thin ewe in there then who abborted premature lambs when i took her home and had to be shot. Now beginning to think that it is something to do with that paddock. Will fluke him in the morning and bring him home but will i then be contaminating another paddock?? oh why cant livestock keeping be easy? I worry so much about my beasties. :(
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It can be identified with a blood test in sheep (fec test only works in cattle). I don't think it would cause the weight loss so quickly. Might be worth a multi vits boost. Have you spoken to vet. Take an fec sample which should identify worm burden and type.
My ewe had lost loads of weight but I put it down to the lambs but she went off her legs and I had her put down today as definitely looked like CCN. As long as he is eating and drinking there is hope. :fc:
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Trish, if it is Johnnes it is highly contagious through the faeces. To the extent that our vet says to make sure the contractor who spreads our muck has properly washed out after his last job.
And of course it is dangerous to cattle too.
I have no experience of it, thankfully for me but not helpful to you. Sorry.
But yes the vet will be able to do a blood test. I would suggest, as you think you may have a contaminated pasture, you get bloods taken asap, so that even if he dies (sorry), you will still get the results and know if you have the disease on the farm. Then take the vet's advice about how to contain / eradicate it.
However, it could also be something to do with that pasture. Excess or lack of some nutrient, something poisonous, something they catch from the wildlife there - could be a number of things.
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dental problem
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Worms is the most likely. A faecal egg count may help but often the problem is immature worms that aren't yet producing eggs. Hopefully he'll stop scouring in a few days & put weight back on quite quickly. Johnes rarely causes scour in sheep, unlike cattle, usually just wasting and death. Tups seem to go down incredibly quickly with worms but often improve just as quick after dosing. Speak to your vet if he's not picking up in a couple of days
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Could it be pine?
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I was thinking gsummat like that but does pine occur in older animals?
Saying that though if you are in an area lacking In cobalt and selenium ( we are) and so use drenches etc that have a trace of it. Wouldn't a jab of B12 help in that situation as a read that b12 helps with the uptake of such elements? Xx
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Yes, pine can occur in older animals.
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:thumbsup:
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Thanks everyone, spoke to vet this morning, he reckons its worms, the south of england has a major worm problem in sheep this year. i had wormed him with normal wormer last night, brought him home this morning and wormed him for fluke and tonight i have to give him a cocci drench incase. Have sent a poo sample off for worm count. Just bought him 2 lovely cabbages and ewe/lamb mix which he is picking at. Scouring like a goodun but i am not surprised with the amount of wormer in his system. :fc: he makes it as financially i will be not a happy bunny having to buy a new tup and he is a lovely little ram who has had fantastic lambing results for the last 2 years. (and i am actually rather fond of him!) He is chilling in my stable and yard in the cool right now!!
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:fc: he pulls through and makes a full recovery.
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Beaut, don't give him ewe mix it will be no good for him, lamb mix fine, but a ewe mix, no that can give him calculi, crystals in the urethra ;)
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ooh my god!! ewe mix grabbed out of feed bowl rather quickly!!!!!!!!!!! thanks!!!
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Any ideas on what i can give him to bung him up a bit, really stinky scouring going on. Is it worth trying to get some scour formula in him? poor wee man!!
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When we ve had a little scour here in the past, the vet has given us bimimix , but I m not sure if you can give that to adult sheep?? get him some rehydion too, our vey will draw up what we need in a little med bottle, worth asking if they can do that just for one sheep x
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It could be this.....
PARASITIC GASTRO-ENTERITIS
Parasitic gastro-enteritis (PGE) in Britain is a disease primarily of lambs, characterised by weight loss and diarrhoea..
AETIOLOGY
The principal nematodes present in outbreaks are Ostertagia and Trichostrongylus occasionally Haemonchus, Strongyloides, Cooperia, Nematodirus spp. Bunostomum and Chabertia are involved. In most cases infection is by ingestion of the larvae.
PATHOLOGY
The main function of the gastro-intestinal tract is to digest and absorb nutrients. In addition, it plays a major role in fluid and electrolyte balance and protein metabolism. The presence of large numbers of parasites in the gastro-intestinal tract will interfere with these functions with obvious and serious consequences.
INTESTINAL PARASITES
Intestinal function is to complete digestion and to absorb nutrients; the intestine also plays a major role in fluid and electrolyte balance and protein metabolism. To do this it has an enormous surface area for absorption of nutrients.
The effect of the presence of parasites such as Trichostrongylus colubriformis and Nematodirus battus is to reduce surface area and therefore reduce ability to absorb. The brush border enzymes may also be lost and hence there is reduced ability to digest. If there is a severe exudate present this will act as a barrier and interfere with digestion and absorption.
The clinical consequences of these changes are:
1. Diarrhoea. This is the cardinal clinical sign of enteritis. It can be defined as a consequence of malabsorption of water and electrolytes.
2. Malnutrition. Due to malabsorption and leading to weight loss, poor quality wool and impaired milk production.
3. Excessive loss of protein through the intestine.
CLINICAL SIGNS
Outbreaks of clinical disease are predominantly seen in lambs during the months of July, August and September. They are of sudden onset and several animals are usually affected, the main clinical sign being a profuse, watery diarrhoea which results in soiling of the fleece around the tail and perineum with faecal material. Affected animals become dull and the wool loses its bloom. Initially weight gain is arrested but as the diarrhoea persists there is a loss of weight and eventually animals may become markedly dehydrated followed by recumbency and death.
Young sheep may develop a severe diarrhoea during the late winter months. The first clinical sign is a gradual loss of condition which may be difficult to appreciate and this is followed by the appearance, in a number of animals, of a severe diarrhoea which is of a very dark colour. After the onset of the diarrhoea, deterioration is rapid.
Adult sheep frequently carry a worm burden which does not appear to affect their general health provided the animals receive an adequate diet. When food is scarce any parasitic burden may exaggerate the effects of malnutrition. Under these circumstances affected animals show a progressive weight loss without diarrhoea.
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What are his teeth like? X
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Would it be better to keep him on hay and rehydration fluids for a few days to dry him up a bit rather than unfamiliar foods that his rumens not equipped to deal with. Much as you'd give people / dogs etc chicken and rice or something else gentle after a stomach bug.
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Some sort of kaolin mix usually works. Not sure how you buy it but the elderly lady I bought my black welsh from used to swear by it. Otherwise keep him off of molasses. I'm sure there is something like wheat or barley which is supposed to bind just can't remember what. Vet can also give you something
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I would try some live yoghurt or better even, kefir. It will help stabilise his gut.
:fc: he improves!
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Live yogurt would be good, forgot about that. I always syringe this into them before trying anything else.
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Dry hay and Rehydion (as a drench). I wouldn't give anything else just now as he has enough to cope with. No concentrate until he's better. Has he got a friend in with him, alone he may just get worse.
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I agree - his sytem may well benefit from being "rested" for a bit.
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Have drenched with scour formula, he has hay, water and his friend to keep him company. Has had 3 tiny feeds today of soaked Fast Fibre (horsy people on here will know what that is!) basically a fibre mix which you soak to a mush. He loves it. Has had a drench of probiotic and a vitamin kickstart. Have this inkling of a feeling that he is rather enjoying all the pampering and attention!! I spied him wandering around the yard from my tractor, as soon as i get close he lies down in the stable looking like he is at deaths door!! :sheep: :love:
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Have drenched with scour formula, he has hay, water and his friend to keep him company. Has had 3 tiny feeds today of soaked Fast Fibre (horsy people on here will know what that is!) basically a fibre mix which you soak to a mush. He loves it. Has had a drench of probiotic and a vitamin kickstart. Have this inkling of a feeling that he is rather enjoying all the pampering and attention!! I spied him wandering around the yard from my tractor, as soon as i get close he lies down in the stable looking like he is at deaths door!! :sheep: :love:
That' boys for you... they always are at death's door if feeling unwell... :-J
But seriously I hope he recovers. :fc:
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How's he doing doll? He sounds a bit more chipper from your last post, I hope he's continued to improve xx
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I had the same thing with my Herdwick ram, it was pines disease, B12 and multivits everyday for a couple of weeks and I gave ivy to start him eating, he has recovered now it took about a month
andy
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Well, got back from my weeks holiday, 3 phone calls to and from the vet and 5 text messages (love my vet) during my holiday. Ram has been blood tested and poo tested and just about everything tested. Results not back yet from bloods but should hear from her tomorrow. Rammie is picking up, scouring has stopped, looking like a dying swan has stopped and hunger strike has stopped!! phew!!! My amazing house sitter has been hand feeding him weetabix, ivy and digestive biscuits!! He is now tucking into sheep nuts and is on a paddock of lovely grass. Vet is certain it was worms and made worse when i wormed him!! poor wee thing. He has been wormed regularly but our area has been dreadful this year for worms. Fingers crossed he will make a full recovery and be fit and well enough to go in with the ewes in September.
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Very glad to hear that Rammy is improving - and that you had a nice holiday with such an excellent housesitter taking care of things for you.
Can you explain what the vet means by "made worse by worming him"?
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Can you explain what the vet means by "made worse by worming him"?
id guess it was maybe the effect of the dead worms coming out of him all at once, maybe??
it was such a mild winter i expect a few places will have a high worm burden.
glad hes on the up.
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yep Shygirl is right, he scoured dreadfully after worming because of the huge amount of dead worms coming out!! Also because he was very low at the point of worming he was knocked back even further, one of those kill or cure situations. Have chatted to the vet about a new tact on worming and we are using different wormers and a new worming programme to hopefully beat the little critters.
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When we bought a young pony once, down in condition when she were wormed she ended up on the floor, mass exodus of worms, she came right, but my mam swears that was down to the amount of fluids we got back into her x
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yep i reckon the litre after litre of scour formula i poured down his throat are what saved him.
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When we bought a young pony once, down in condition when she were wormed she ended up on the floor, mass exodus of worms, she came right, but my mam swears that was down to the amount of fluids we got back into her x
im guessing this is why a 5 day course of panacur is often recommended rather than a strong one off shot of equest. a bit more gentle perhaps?
glad hes still on the up :wave:
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I can't remember what she used it was a good few years ago. Wouldn't touch equest or pramox, don't like them.
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Quick update on ram, still alive and slowly putting on weight. Rather got into the habit of being hand fed carrots, cabbage, digestives etc etc. I think its called "man flu"!!
Vet was out on monday jabbing cattle and had a look at him, really pleased with progress, labs are positive it was poisoning. They are doing a kidney function test in 2 weeks FOC as they are so interested in his case and cant believe he is alive! Concerned as to whether he will still be fertile but will run him with one ewe this autumn to get his system going and see if he does the stuff!
Must say that Westpoint Vets do go above and beyond the call of duty!!
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Must say that Westpoint Vets do go above and beyond the call of duty!!
ohh sounds expensive.... :-J... ;D
great that hes feeling better :thumbsup:
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Havent had the bill yet, but i reckon it will be way more than buying a new ram!! I am too soft!!