The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: waterbuffalofarmer on June 14, 2014, 09:33:06 am
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hey guys I was reading this piece of news and I think it is a complete and utter outrage! Animal welfare goes out the window if this goes ahead! :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant: :rant:
http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/12/06/2014/145004/planning-victory-for-1000-cow-welsh-dairy.htm (http://www.fwi.co.uk/articles/12/06/2014/145004/planning-victory-for-1000-cow-welsh-dairy.htm)
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Why does animal welfare go out of the window?
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Because you cannot have 1000 cows on a grass based system, I think all intensive farming is wrong. It is unatural for 1000 cows to be in buildings all the time. I had a brother who worked in an intensive dairy farm and they had supacows, which literally gave milk for over a year ,or more, only on one calving, also they gave them a specific mixed ration and if anyone messed it up slightly they could become seriously ill. The reason why I hate intensive farming is because they treat them like machines and not like animals.
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In a country where bottled water costs more than bottled milk, moving to more efficient, intensive systems is inevitable. I think they'll look after the cows as well as possible, even if they don't get to graze. The only dairy farms I have known have closed down.
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I was talking about this to someone the other day about the prices of food. The reason why farmers need to have more animals to build a good business and bring in a nice paycheck is because it is not the supermarkets faults, like we are all led to believe, it is in fact, difficult as it is for me to say it, the consumers faults. The supermarkets are just giving in to demands for good food at a knocked down price. :innocent:
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I believe that after spending so much time and money getting this set up that welfare will be at the very top of his agenda. It's also in his best interests financially to look after the cows very well, a badly looked after cow will not milk to the best of her capability and the longer he keeps her well and happy the more profitable she will be.
They will have the best housing, feed and care possible and where no turn out is far from ideal neither is keeping beef herds out all winter and expecting them to stand up to their axles in mud to eat round a ring feeder, which is also what a lot of farmers do!
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I know,I knew of a farmer who didn't look after his animals properly. The reason why I am annoyed is if this is allowed how many more will be allowed and then it'll become like America. That is what really annoys me. :rant:
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I'm no fan of large-scale / intensive farming operations, and I hate to think of any grazing animal never feeling the sun on its back, but when outdoor cows continually get infected with TB, what is the answer?
And, reading that article, there will be 12 full-time staff and 4 part-time staff for 1000 cows. That's probably more attention per cow than they get in little family farms.
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a farmer near me is "scotch assured" and his beef cattle live 24/7 in a shed. with very little view of outside. yes - they are grass fed...silage.
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supacows, which literally gave milk for over a year ,or more, only on one calving,.
1) Anyone who knows about dairy production would know that the nearer to a calf a year you get the better the output per cow. .. so a large scale business would aim to be as close to this as possible
2) Welfare on these large scale systems is often far better than on small farms ... it has to be to get the output.
I definitely do not agree with these systems (cows should in this country be outside in my optinion) but wouldn't criticize on these 2 issues.
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supacows, which literally gave milk for over a year ,or more, only on one calving,.
1) Anyone who knows about dairy production would know that the nearer to a calf a year you get the better the output per cow. .. so a large scale business would aim to be as close to this as possible
2) Welfare on these large scale systems is often far better than on small farms ... it has to be to get the output.
I definitely do not agree with these systems (cows should in this country be outside in my optinion) but wouldn't criticize on these 2 issues.
My brother worked on an intensive dairy farm for a few years the cows were treated well, I think. However they did have supacows which gave enormous, unnatural, quantities of milk, after about 3 years they had to be put down, it is just so sad.
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I don't know enough about the dairy industry or complications associated with high welfare in this area so can't comment much on these points from a basis of sound knowledge or understanding ..... but I just feel it is a step in the wrong direction and quite sad.
This is happening very close to where I live. All I can say that it is not popular on many counts. Haven't yet met anyone with anything good to say. A lot of factors are very 'local' eg. smell, traffic issues but farmers around me say that it is a step too far to keep dairy cows this intensively. They are very aware of problems making a living in dairy industry. Son-in-law of one of those against this development farms nr. Welshpool and has just sold his dairy herd .... can't make it pay. However, they seem to think that it is 'wrong'.
Where abouts in Mid Wales are you WBF ..... ?
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Ceredigion. Yes it is very sad indeed.
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I really can't see the problem. It's about time people grew up and realised the only way to feed the world is with large herds wether it be cows, pigs or chickens. Smallholders will never feed the population we are only playing at it. The welfare in these units will be second to none, if you have a problem with food raised in this manner grow your own or become a vegetarian.
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Thanks for that comment. I do grow my own food milk eggs meat and cheese so am pretty self sufficient oh plus veg too. Supacows are not natural however. Frisians are ok supacows are not because after three years they have to be put down and are on so strict a diet that a slight change kills them. I should know my brother helped milk a lot of cows down in Cambridgeshire and he was appalled at how much they gave. :rant:
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Whilst having some misgivings about mega dairies, I feel we are better to ensure our own food production rather than relying on other countries supplying us. To ensure the high levels of production welfare needs to be to high standards, and breeding super cows is surely on a par with hybrid hens which produce lots more eggs per year but for fewer years.
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iv never heard of the supa cow, and having feed 4 kids, it sounds painful. :roflanim: :roflanim:
im not in favour of extreme genetics in animals whether farm or pet.
i would rather farming for britain was kept in britain where we can monitor welfare better, as opposed to imported products.
the more i learn about life, the more i want to produce for myself. its a cruel world.
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Isn't it horses for courses again? I personally think that the expense in an animal is getting it to the point where it produces offspring, in the case of cows giving both a saleable calf and milk. If you put a heifer in calf young and push her very, very hard she will be a very productive animal for a very short time. If you put her in calf when she's almost fully grown and accept lower yields she'll last three or four times as long but you'll need to keep more cows to get the same amount of milk. I go for longevity every time but the folks with the calculators clearly have a different view of these things.
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It is all about chasing the £ , € , or the $ nothing more . Till that changes , more and more outrages will occur , nothing to do with feeding the world , it is just feeding greed ,
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I don't think I could go into it in great detail right now but read some interesting material (from RBST I think it was but not certain without a lot of digging to find it ) that attempted to disprove the 'we've got to go this way to feed the world' argument. It was quite complicated when you looked into it carefully and not as clear cut as you may think.
Is this sort of intensification of dairy farming much different from 'battery hens' ..... ? That system now seems to be considered unacceptable ????
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As I understand it, there is enough food to feed the world; it's the greed of the rich that prevents the poor from having enough.
Berkshire Boy, it's all very well saying if you don't like it grow your own or go vegetarian. Not everyone is in a position to grow their own. With modern housing having smaller and smaller gardens and waiting lists for allotments, where are people to grow their own? Personally, I would love to be self sufficient in food but being disabled and unable to even look after my goats without help, or grow much in the way of veg, I just can't. Not that I can afford to buy enough land to do more than I manage in my garden in any case.
Shygirl, I agree. These cows have udders full to bursting which can't be comfortable. Remembering times when I've woken my sleeping baby because I was so full of milk, I needed to feed him for my own comfort, I wouldn't want to think of cows being like that every single day of their short lives. They are just being used as machines.
In the hills, I agree absolutely. Battery hen-keeping is wrong so is any type of intensive farming where animals are kept in unnatural conditions and indoors all the time is unnatural.
Russ, couldn't have put it better myself.
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Again, I am no fan of keeping animals indoors, nor of intensive farming generally.
However...
In the modern, indoor-all-the-time systems, cows always have their own comfy bed, always have space at the trough and have plenty of nutritious food to eat, have rotating brushes they can go and scratch themselves on, some of the sytems have parlours where the cows go to be milked by robots whenever they want - which means she never feels uncomfortable, ladies ;)
The real key here is for people to pay their food proper respect. Pay a proper price for it so that it isn't so cheap they buy half-gallon containers and then throw half of it away.
Farmers produce as much milk the supermarkets can sell, and then the buying public throw half of it away. That is the thing to rant about.
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Hi,
I wouldn't like to live near it, just imagine the amount of slurry that a 1000 cows will produce.
Regards
Sue
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I don't think anyone is ranting ... IMO.
I for one don't know too much about dairy farming but I think that the farmers around me do. On the whole they don't seem to think it's good for the animals or the local environment. Slurry is one thing that they have mentioned and it's not going to affect us at all but from what I've heard there is concern in the village that this development is near to. Think its very near to the village school.
I don't think that many would argue against the point that we waste too much but that doesn't necessarily make everything else acceptable either .... IMO.
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Thanks for the replies guys and i agree with all of you. :thumbsup:
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In an ideal world this sort of farming would not happen but the truth is, we are a small country running out of land. Some of us are lucky enough to be able to grow and raise our own food, we have to think of the rest who rely on farmers for decent meat, milk etc. Yes we can all be up in arms about this sort of farming but facts have to be faced something has to be done. I am sure these places will be well inspected at least I hope so. Would I wish to raise any animal this way, no I would not but what is the answer.
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I've said this before in another thread and I stick by it. Joe Public doesn't give a s**t where his dinner comes from as long as it's cheap and no hassle to himself. Intensive farming and mass production is what he wants, wether he knows it or not. People who choose to buy what we think of as "ethically" farmed food are in a tiny minority and always will be.
Standards of welfare in a super dairy will have to be second to none. Wether it's right or wrong is just a matter of opinion.
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My opinion (Im a veggie)
You/we all buy Hybrids whether its a cow a hen or a carrot seed so we all want our own supa production units, more produce per £
What is the difference if an animal has been bought, reared for human use whether it lives for 12 weeks or 12 years ?
IMO = none
My dog is a piece of equipment, I bought it to do a job, if it can't do the job then its days are over, I may if it does many years of good service allow it to retire. we feed it exactly the same food & same amount daily, I do hope all our animals enjoy their existence but if not tough, same with humans make the most out of your surroundings enjoy them the best you can if not you'll probably turn out to be a grumpy old smallholder :roflanim:
I totally agree that the bigger the unit the higher the welfare standards will need to be to keep good health.
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Really interesting discussion. What will happen to the approx. 1000 calves born every year?
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Really interesting discussion. What will happen to the approx. 1000 calves born every year?
Good question. They'll be sold for either meat or kept as breeding stock. Anyway thanks for all the replies guys, its been good to listen to all your opinions on the subject. :thumbsup:
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Again, I am no fan of keeping animals indoors, nor of intensive farming generally.
However...
In the modern, indoor-all-the-time systems, cows always have their own comfy bed, always have space at the trough and have plenty of nutritious food to eat, have rotating brushes they can go and scratch themselves on, some of the sytems have parlours where the cows go to be milked by robots whenever they want - which means she never feels uncomfortable, ladies ;)
The real key here is for people to pay their food proper respect. Pay a proper price for it so that it isn't so cheap they buy half-gallon containers and then throw half of it away.
Farmers produce as much milk the supermarkets can sell, and then the buying public throw half of it away. That is the thing to rant about.
Well said,
I know of many many dairy farms, I work on my family dairy farm and am very involved and interested in animal welfare
I can (almost) guarantee, if you go to a tiny 150 cow dairy farm, the cows nearly all dont have as comfy beds, not enough in many cases with many cows having to lie in the passage-ways, I dont know of any 150 cows dairys who have cow pedometeres (to predict a cow going lame so prompt treatment can be carried out), cow back scratchers, rubber matting on the floors instead of concrete, very strict hygeine rules etc
The 600-900 cow dairys I know of all have the above, yet why if we are talking about increasing cow numbers up to 1,000 is it suddenly called a "super-dairy" when a 600 cow or 900 cow dairy isnt?
Also the cows are generally kept in superb condition, have every wish catered for, live in comfort within a constant environment, yes the average lactation number in dairy cows is 3 (so they live to 5) but is 5 years in a comfortable environment so much worse than say 8 years in a less comfy environment..... a cow doesnt know that 5 years is shorter than 8
Our dairy farm has 180 cows milking, they give approx 8,000 litres per year, they are kept indoors from october to april (6 months of the year) they are buffer fed throughout the year as they can only really produce 4,000 litres off just grass, they are milked twice per day, after each milking if given a choice they would always prefer to stay in the cool yard and eat silage than take the trek back out to grazing.
These "supa-cows" (hate that term, they are just high yielding holsteins) are doing 9,000-10,000 litres of milk per year, thats 33.3 litres of milk given per day on average (for 9,000 litres) over 270 milking days per year, basically 15 litres per milking, thats not actually that much different to 8,000 litres per year over 270 milking days being 29 litres per day, 14.5 litres per milking
The cows are fed much more accurately although using the same TMR method as a smaller farm might, however as bigger farms usually can afford just 1 person to do the full time feeding only and no other tasks, they usually ask for a margin of error less than 3%, so when mixing the maize, grass, mollasses, minerals, compound and straw together in the wagon using the loader they have much more time to do it all to the exact kilo needed per cow
when the feed is not done accurately in minimal amounts the cows themselves dont notice but the nutrients may be off balance wich can effect milk production, if the feed is done with a larger amount of error then yes of course they would become ill!! when I have tipped too much mollasses in the mixer wagon they have always got the squits after, im pretty sure anyone would!
I sometimes can work 16 hr days on the farm, so therefore yes I do try and get the feeding done within an allocated time, so my margin of error can not be 3% like on a bigger unit, it is probly around 5% and I am a good and carefull feeder.
So yes Giant farms may = putting smaller farms out of business
but please dont anyone suggest that bigger farms = low animal welfare
I can talk all day about dairy....
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Thanks for the comment. It is interesting to see someone's experience on dairy farms. My brother worked on a farm in Essex owned by a lord houlton, I think. That was very industrial, however they didn't have a thousand cows only half that amount. Again thanks for the comments guys, its been good to hear all your thoughts, thanks.
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I can talk all day about dairy....
Great! :thumbsup: I shall be posting some questions... ;) :D
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There are buffalo farms in Italy that have rotating brushes and water for their buffaloes including robotic milkers too. However that's only on some farms.