The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: doganjo on October 19, 2009, 11:44:28 pm
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/8315516.stm
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That is a scary story. I really hope that it is media rubbish or that there is more info that we are not being given. When people start judging a parents intelligence as a criteria for parent hood we have problems
The royal family wouldn't have any more offspring for a start.
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The royal family wouldn't have any more offspring for a start. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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I think there is more (much much more) to this story than we are being told.
However, and i may well be in a minority on this one, I don't think anyone and everyone should have a right to have kids. We have too many people on the planet as it is, and it's just getting worse. (i'm not advocating a chinese government policy of bribing people with a radio for just having 1 child)
I think everyone should have to have a contraceptive "chip" fitted in their early teens to cut out "accidents"
the "chip" can only be removed when you pass a "parentship" exam
that would involve
1. Showing you were in a steady and stable relationship (straight/gay - i don't care - but 1 person can't do it on their own properly without depending on goverment handouts!)
2. Showing you had a house and it was suitable upkeep - rented, bought, mortgaged - don't care - it needs to be a suitable place for a child (or multiple children if you want more than one), clean, bills paid, safe
3. there should be a test - questions like what do you do when your baby cries all night - a. slap it, b. lock it in a cupboard and go to the pub, c. go see what the problem is and sort it by changing, feeding, comforting the child! (that usually covers a toddlers problems - but if they persist - off to the docs for advice)
4. If you have or have had any alcohol/drug addictions then you need to attend a counseling course and complete it and get it signed off that you are clean. You MAY be subjected to random drink/drug tests in the future.
5. Show you have a plan to provide for the upkeep and costs associated with a child - SIGNING ON THE DOLE AND GETTING BENEFIT IS NOT PART OF THAT PLAN. THAT WILL HELP IF SOMETHING HAPPENS THAT AFFECTS YOUR PLAN - such as redundancy, illness, accidents. If yo quit a job - you don't get your benefits either!
6. Anyone who has suffered physical or mental abuse - from parents or partners - will need to see social workers regularly. It's well known that abused people often become abusers. Not all will, but should we not check anyone and let the cycle continue unchecked? Ok, it's gonna be hard to ascertain who has/hasn't been abused - but if there is a history of it, then they need to be more closely monitored.
There, that probably isn't comprehensive, but it's a start.
Yup, that makes me a nazi/facist/big brother thought police evil scumbag - but i'm sorry, some people aren't fit to look after kids and only see it as a way of sitting on their fat arse watching Jeremy Kyle all day. those capable of raising a child will get through the process without too much worry. And it's a big committment - so yeah, they should have to think and worry about it before they land themselves with a houseful of bairns.
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We had a similar situation with a social worker, but relating to elderly care.
My parents ran a small care home here, 19 beds and it tended to be 'country folk' who liked to live here - ex farmers, shepherds etc. Social workers are supposed to ASSIST families to make a choice as to what home they chose to live in and help them access funding etc. We had a case of a social worker taking a family to court to prevent them from placing their mum with us, she was a farmers wife and had been a long time friend of the family, there was never any question of her going anywhere else. But this social worker decided the lady's son had learning difficulties (LOL, as if - he ran his own business and was a bit thick at times, but was more than capable of making a decision)
She managed it too - the social worker gained power of attorney and shipped the wee lady off to a city centre care home, miles away from the family (we were only 10 minutes from her family) I still, to this day, have no idea how she managed it or indeed why ??? (We always got good inspection reports and there was never any question over the level of care provided) IMHO some social workers are too concerned with putting ticks in all the right boxes than actually standing back and looking at the big picture. Here's another example - they decided that it was the residents right to self medicate and that locks had to be fitted to all bedroom doors. Now, that's fair enough if the residents in question are of sound mind (but even then, they would lack the motor skills to open medication bottles) but most of our residents suffered from dementia, a reciepe for disaster if you ask me - give confused old people lots of meds and let them lock themselves in their room :o
Most of the social workers I've met over the years just don't have a clue ! (Sandy, please don't be offended - you sound like a rare sensible social worker ;))
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You know something Chris reading your ideas which come over as very, very harsh - I actually agree with what you say. So many unwanted children are brought into an overcrowded world just so the parents can get benefits etc. Ofcourse the reality is that your thoughts would never, in the near future, be considered by the Western World but who knows what the future holds!
You, ofcourse, realise you have now opened a huge can of worms here? Let the fun begin...
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think I will keep quiet on this one ...... TSWHTF otherwise.... ::) :o ;D
cheers
Russ
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You, ofcourse, realise you have now opened a huge can of worms here? Let the fun begin...
I'm off to Thailand tomorrow - so thought it would be nice to leave a wee time bomb for everyone before i disappeared.
I realise i am often as subtle as a sledge hammer - maybe i need to consider my delivery more in future!! However, the thing i don't get my head around is why people think they have a right to have kids and then expect others to pay for their upkeep. Sure, have all the kids you want, bring them up in the conditions you want - just don't come to me asking for hand outs to fund it all.
Oh, and I do believe in a welfare state and providing a safety net for everyone in society should they befall hard times - i'm not some hard nosed tory. Everyone should have a home, health care and education. Everyone should be given food and essentials to survive should they face redundancy, unemployment, ill health or accidents. Even the collapse of the banks has caused untold hardship on innocent people (and their kids) and they should be looked after - but people enter into a life long commitment that is a huge drain on resources without giving any thought to how they are gonna pay for it all.
grrrr - i'm just in rant mode today!!! You'd think i'd be more relaxed given i'm off to see Christy Moore tonight in Perth then off to Thailand!!
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Enjoy your concert tonight and have a brilliant holiday.
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the thing i don't get my head around is why people think they have a right to have kids and then expect others to pay for their upkeep. Sure, have all the kids you want, bring them up in the conditions you want - just don't come to me asking for hand outs to fund it all.
Trying to keep quiet but have to add a halfpenny's worth
It probably all boils down to how we see the human society. and whether family units should be 'self sufficient' or not. I earn a living and look after my kids, we buy other peoples old clothes donated to charity shops and some of my taxes go to pay for elderly folk to be cared for who maybe haven't got their own kids. I like to think of a society as being a big eco system where we are all responsible for ourselves and for others. My ex sister in law (thank the good lord for the ex bit) was a social worker and when my eldest daughter was 3 weeks old and not sleeping at night she called to see me at 10 o clock in the morning. Being very worried about the fact that we were asleep (at last) she felt that she should warn me that social workers frowned on mothers not getting up in the morning and did i realise that i was at risk of having Ella registered as vulnerable.
snarl hiss spit
Two years later she had her first baby and was so out of tune with the natural world that I had to teach her how to see a shadow and work out where to put her baby to sleep in the garden in the shade so she wouldn't get surnburnt. There's nowt so strange as folk. But we had better be careful of our genetic stock or in the glorious new world of the future we will need a rare breed society for people. We could have the Special Needs society and the Very clever But Socially Inept Society, what about the Artistic Geniuses Who Are Genetically Unable to Earn Money or Cook society?
Sorry being facetious but just trying to point out that diversity in people is important and if too many people are spending too much time watching Hollyoaks then something needs to change but chemical castration is probably going a bit far.
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i don't disagree with you Marigold. (honest, i know it might look like i do!)
but too many people are taking from the society without returning the favour.
is that fair or right?
Oh, and ONE of the (many) flaws with my big brother vision of the world is that it would involve social workers running it - who will invariably make a complete ar5e of it (Sorry Sandy!! talking generalities and not specifics! ;) )
Oh and there are plenty of employed, educated people I wouldn't trust to make me toast never mind raise my kids. it's not just about being able to afford having kids - it's about having the support network to ensure you can raise them.
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Sellicbhoy
Forget the box of veg idea - become a politician - you get my vote
;D ;D ;D
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I used to make asessments on similar families all the time, I felt sorry for them but often the risk to the child would bevery high without 24hr support, however, I suppose the ideal would be extend family support!!!! The trouble is with the blame culture is, once a person is identified as not being able to look after themselves who will take the responsibility for the child that they are able to produce? What used to happen in the cases Iworked with was,the baby was temporary fostered and had contact with the parents as many days as possible,they were also given parenting classes pre birth and after thebirth that continued as long as required,that is until the care order was reviewed and the parenting skills again asessed, sometimes,the parents became able to have minimal support and became"normal" families......
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Teehee - there is nothing like a good debate.
On the glorious day brothers its the bosses of Tesco's that I'd like to castrate and whatever the female equivilant is. I see the the less advantaged folk as victims of a corrupt system that exploits and destroys families. Its great having a day off work - I get to to talk to you lot.
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the consumer society, destruction of the manufacturing base, trade union busting by maggie has a lot to answer for in destroying communities
it's quite funny when i go home to visit my mum and little sister - my sister has a young child, works part time, supported by her (now) husband. But the wee fella is passed between grandparents, aunties and uncles and babysitting cousins so that she can work. They do shopping, ironing, dog walking and other such tasks that we all have to face every day for each other.
I left home when i was 16 (21 years ago!!) and have never lived within 50 miles of my nearest relative since then. the Future Mrs SBs family are all in ireland. It scares teh cr@p out of me when i think about how the hell we are gonna look after kids without that family support nearby. (I've even considered moving back up to the highlands for that 1 reason - well, that and it's not a bad part of the world to live in!)
So, we'll jsut blame Thatcher for the modern society that we live in - can we all agree on that??
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SB
Looking after kids without family support is easy - you just do not go out a lot.
I have never had any help from family since having Tara, and she is now 11, and has been left the grand total of three nights with a babysitter in all that time, spent three weeks this summer in the UK with Joe's Mum, and thats it.
The rest of the time we have managed to both be self employed and look after her, and build a business, farm and our own house, and get through major illness in the family and still manage. We don't go out, don't smoke, Joe doesnt drink or go to the pub, we have friends around for meals and games of scrabble, and we have a great quality of life. We have never been abroad as a family (mainly cause of the animals).
I know we have only one child (Cancer made sure we couldn't have more) but we did it, and we are closer and better off for it. ::)
It is nice to have family around to help - but there are negative sides to it too, the arguments, being told what or how to do stuff. :o
I suppose being an only child until I was eleven I tend to be self-sufficient as a person, and hate having to ask for help - but love to give and help others. ::) We got great news this week too that there is a place at the local Grammar school for Tara as a border starting next September, which is a great achievement, we are lucky we have a bright child, but the more time you spend with them, the better they are too.
Don't let it scare you, you will cope, you have the right attitude towards life. ;D ;D
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Yep SB we can agree
Also agree with Snoopy, I don't live near family but we do live in a very supportive and caring community. When OH lost his job when my twins were 3 months old and had to go away to work for 4 months ( I had 4 children under 5) I was never left alone. The family GP used to drop in with home made quiches for us etc. But then I live in the middle of rural Scotland and Thatcher hasn't infected this community too much. Now that Tesco's has arrived I am less optimistic.
I am sure that with your strong value base you will be great at being a parent - just need to find the right community with other similar aged kids who you can share the ups and downs with. Going to my friends daughter 16th birthday tea on Thursday, there will be at least 5 families squashed around the table for homemade pizza - it couldn't be a better way to start life.
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SB
Enjoy Christy concert tonight, saw him last time he was on tour, brill. Am away this weekend otherwise I would have gone Fri/Sat here in Glasgow.
JD
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Oh i can defo see this thread as a ticking time bomb lol, I would be on the list to see the social worker for having a kid. I have a reconised learning difficulty.
The list is very clear cut but unfortunately no human is clear cut and has plenty of 'bleeds around the edges' it would be very difficult to patrol
Linz
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Linz - looking at your website and the work you do with freeserve etc., plus the looking after of step-children already, and now your own baby - nobody I know would believe that you had any learning difficulty at all - your more able than most to do technical stuff too. :love: :bouquet:
Julie
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Well said Linz
I think that this thread is just keeping the old grey cells working. If we were all in pub and fuelled with a few pints the barman would be looking worried about now. this however is a much safer way to tackle a set of issues that are as old as the hils (the middle eastern hills)
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hehe, am not worried about the thread at all just making to point that the key points are floured as humans are not simply cut beings
Linz
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Wow this is a tricky one isn't it?! For as long as I can remember I have always wanted 2 children - going with the theory that you replace yourself and partner, but don't add to the population. I have done that with 2 gorgeous/annoying/intelligent/infuriating boys and feel totally complete. This is what I have always wanted for myself, but is not a judgement on what others do.
There must be more to this article about this couple in Fife - we are told so little about it that its impossible to make a judgement. With regard to people having children there definitely seems to be people out there who have children to improve their housing/benefits situation which is outrageous. There was a documentory last year about a family that were now on their 3rd generation living off the State - nobody works or sees the point in working if the State will pay for them to do b****r all! Shocking.
My OH is in full time employment and now that both the boys are in school I work within the school hours so that I can earn money, but still be there for them. We have no family near by and have no expectation of any help and get on with life. We have babysitters or do babystting rotas between friends, but don't go out all that often. In short like most of the population we have control of our lives and don't rely on anyone but ourselves and that's how it should be for all. The people who genuinly need support should get all that they need and the money grabbing layabouts should get off their fat ar8es and join the real world.
In an ideal world would be parents woulod be vetted, but that's an impossible task.
SB don't worry about not having family support for when you have children as when your children start play group e.t.c. you will meet people and all help eachother out with babysitting e.t.c. Also would you like us to vet you before you take the plunge into fatherhood!!!! ;)
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SB don't worry about not having family support for when you have children as when your children start play group e.t.c. you will meet people and all help eachother out with babysitting e.t.c. Also would you like us to vet you before you take the plunge into fatherhood!!!! ;)
ah, we'll be fine, the future Mrs SB is a resourceful woman - with chickens coming soon and then the business - i don't plan on getting out much in the future anyway (apart from the fact i'm off to thailand tomorrow ;D)
I think it's only fair you devise a parenthood test for me - i started it!!! live by the sword, die by the sword.
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What a shame Chris is off on holiday today. Last night there was a programme on STV, 9.00pm where they put 4 "celebreties" into 4 different homes in some of the most deprived and impoverished parts of the UK. Anyway, seeing the children in these families really shows you that Chris's earlier points of who should be allowed children aint too radical after all. These poor people live in disgraceful, disgusting and unacceptable conditions. However, many of them do nothing to try and help or better themselves. The sad thing is that as these kids grow they will accept these circumstances as "the norm" and will therefore breed themselves, bringing their own children up in the same manner - the vicious circle.
It is quite horrific that people are living in such awful conditions in this day and age.
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grrrr - i'm just in rant mode today!!! You'd think i'd be more relaxed given i'm off to see Christy Moore tonight in Perth then off to Thailand!!
FFS don't talk to Christy about this before the gig. ::)
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Oh dear - now i'm wishing we were in the pub so I could order a pint.......
I never want to be in the position of judging whether a human being should be allowed to have a child. To me its a short step from there to deciding whether someone who started life as a potentially self sufficient human being should be allowed to live if they become too dependent on other people. Harold Shipman and others - here we come.
I wonder what you'll see in Thailand SB? When I travelled around the east I saw many people who lived in a way that uk residents would consider substandard and yet i saw so many people smiling and looking as though they were squeezing every ounce out of the living experience.
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I have been to Thailand several times (once earlier this year) and the Thai people are a very, very happy bunch of people. They are so nice I am going back in January. The difference there is they get no help from the state, if they have nothing they go hungry. For this reason they are corrupt, they would sell their granny for money. However, this is a beautiful country and the people are warm and welcoming - known as the "Land of Smiles". Our Western people are the ones that think it is their rights for the government to keep them.
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I lived in Thailand for over a year and was always amazed at how families living in a corragated/wood house with dirt floor would turn out their children in dazzeling white school uniform. I can't even find the time to iron my children's uniform - they always go to school crumpled - the Thais put me to shame.
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It scares the cr@p out of me when i think about how the hell we are gonna look after kids without that family support nearby. (I've even considered moving back up to the highlands for that 1 reason - well, that and it's not a bad part of the world to live in!)
Hope you'll see this when you get back from Thailand, Chris and Karen - you have a ready made friends and family circle right here in Central Scotland. Plenty of babysitters on this forum live near you including me.
Did anyone see the couple on TV? They gave one interview I think then refused any more - wonder which newspaper has got to them? Is that very cynical? I have to admit the chap sounded reasonably sensible and caring. Don't think she said much.