The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Marches Farmer on June 09, 2014, 06:21:34 pm
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Got two working BC's but thinking about a "companion" dog for one of my children. Since we have rare breed livestock wondered about a "not a Labrador" retriever. Anyone out there had any experience of the Chesapeake Bay or Curly Coated variety?
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we very nearly got a novia scotia d/t retriever once....they are bonny looking dogs.
flat coated retrievers are really nice too.
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Don't know much about the breeds except what to look for in the show ring - these links may help
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/display.aspx?id=2044 (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/display.aspx?id=2044)
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/display.aspx?id=2045 (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/services/public/breed/display.aspx?id=2045)
http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/9846/abshealthreqs.pdf (http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/media/9846/abshealthreqs.pdf)
Flatcoats seem to have a lot of cancer problems, rarely live beyond 8 or 9.
Retriever (Chesapeake Bay) 1) Hip scoring 2) Eye Testing - Annual DNA test - prcd-PRA
Retriever (Curly Coated) Hip scoring None
Retriever (Flat Coated) 1) Hip scoring 2) Eye Testing - Gonioscopy 1) Eye Testing - Annual 2) Bitches not to produce a litter under two years 3) Bitches not to produce more than three litters in their lifetime 4) Bitches not to produce more than one litter within a 12-month period
Retriever (Golden) 1) Hip scoring 2) Eye Testing - Annual 1) Elbow grading 2) Bitches under 18 months not to produce a litter 3) Bitches not to produce more than one litter within a 12-month period
Retriever (Labrador) 1) Hip scoring 2) Eye Testing - Annual 1) Elbow grading 2) DNA test - prcd-PRA
Retriever (Nova Scotia Duck Tolling) 1) Hip scoring 2) DNA test - prcd-PRA 1) Eye Testing - Annual 2) Bitches under two years not to produce
3) DNA test - CEA a litter 3) Bitches not to produce more than one litter within a 12-month period 4) Dogs under two years not to be used at stud
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Depends if you want it for the job of retrieving or just as a pet?
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I know a gamekeeper who had a bay and it was a lovely dog with a great temperament reminded me of a lab laid back, gentle, and very biddable. The one he had was great with his kids. But have only ever known the one.
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Same problem as with rare farm breeds, I guess - first you have to find it and then you have to find something to mate it with ...
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We have a Flat Coat and a Lab. I was brought up with Flatties and Labs but have some experience of the other retriever breeds as father trained retrievers for other people.
Flatties are the Peter Pans of the dog world .... they do honestly never grow up. It is for the most part like living with an over-grown puppy for ever. Great characters but can be a handful. In general, as a breed, they love everyone and everything with full on enthusiasm. They have a constantly wagging tail and you can expect family and visitors alike to be kissed to death. They are clever but silly .... clowns ... they have a great sense of humour but don't have one unless you do too! They can be hard work and are always 'on-the-go'. They love family but love everyone and show it. They are not guard dogs in anyway. They adore children but can be a little 'rough' .... too enthusiastic! They are always ready for fun. Alf, even at 9, is straight there if he hears an excited voice or laughter.
I love Flatties but don't think that they would suit everyone. They need lots of exercise and stimulation and can be hyper. Being so people orientated can be a problem if not trained well eg. run to strangers, jump up.
Flatties are not that common but in the last 2-3 years I've had 3 lots of people come and fuss Alf. They had all recently given their Flatties to other people or in one case a rescue because they couldn't 'cope' with their lively behaviour and antics. One lady said it broke her heart because the dog was lovely but just too lively around her young children.
Male Flatties can be very head strong and wilful .... much trickier to train than labs. The female handler presenting the Crufts working gundog display a couple of years ago said, ' You can train 3 labs, to 2 Goldens, to 1 Flat coat. ' I think that is about right. ;D
Labradors are good all rounders. I only have experience of working labs. In general they are easy to train. They are sensible and clever. Working labs usually love their families and children in their family. My picture thing is of our 10 mnth old fox red working lab. She loves our children and is very tolerant and easy going. We find that working labs are sometimes nervous of strangers. Kate is typical of this and does bark at strangers and takes time to feel confident around new people. In general they are quite sensitive and they respond really quickly to training. They don't like to be shouted at and you need to be gentle when training them .... not so wilful as Flatties. Kate at 10 mnths has been on holiday with us and behaved impeccably. Alf at 9 years still needs reminding to behave himself. ::) ;D
Oh, Doganjo is quite right about cancer. There is undoubtedly a problem in the breed but saying that our Flatties have in general out lived our labs. We have had Flatties live very active lives until 13 and 14. Sister however lost one at 13 mnths and I have heard of lots lost in their early years. There is no line that is not affected.
There is not a bad bone in my Flatties body. If you have loads of energy, are very tolerant and have a good sense of humour Flatties are great. If you want an easier life labs are a better choice in my opinion.
Oh, if working at a serious competitive level, then a lab .... no choice. Have a look at Field Trial results ... it answers that question.
Don't know so much about Curlies and Chessies. Have seen them working. It was some years ago. They didn't win much. The ones that I knew of both breeds tended to be a bit on the 'sharp' side ... both with people and dogs. I was told that Chessies didn't always tolerate children so readily as labs, flatties or goldens but no direct experience of keeping these as house dogs.
HTH ...... if you want to know anything about Labs or Flats will try to answer your questions. I :love: both. ;D
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I have a Golden, and had one before too. Both were a bit 'loopy' around food, and this one is a complete landshark (mouthy, bitey, chewy) which I discover from the GR forums is not uncommon. Neither is the 'on speed until age 24-30 months' nor the 'who me, you're talking to me, why would you be cross with me, can't think why so I'll just carry on with what I want to do and ignore you while you're in a grump' attitude'!
When I, or anyone else, in shooting dog company, says any such things we get told 'there are reasons why Labradors are the most common retrievers, not because they're the better retrievers but they are so much easier to train' closely followed by 'think yourself lucky you didn't succumb to a flatcoat' and when I ask why I'm told they are all the things above, with knobs on.
There are calm, sensible Goldies and flatcoats - but how will you know what sort you are getting! Temperament at 5 isn't a measure of the first two years apparently.
That said, I love (and loved) my Goldie with all my heart - she (and the last one) is a beautiful, irrepressible, affectionate darling.
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:roflanim: Oh Jaykay ..... Flat coats just can't help it, it's because they ARE Flatcoats.
MF have you met a Flattie? Where abouts are you? You might love them you might not.
Jaykay, it's not often, but may have to disagree with you ...... I've never met a truly calm and sensible Flattie.
They only 'pretend' to be for tiny periods of time. Then it all gets too much. But they are lovely. :love: :love:
My father always says :-J that rare breeds are rare for a reason and there is a reason why everyone has labs. ;D
When you say 'bitey, mouthy, chewy, Jaykay do you mean with you or the food. Should perhaps have said on that note that Flatties are very 'mouthy' ..... more so than labs. Alf doesn't do it so much now but they love to catch hold of your wrists, clothes, etc. and hold on. Just because I suppose they are gundogs who love to 'hold'. I think nothing of it and don't even notice but our neighbour was quite alarmed by it and doesn't like it ... that was when our lab puppy mouthed her hands. Sure you can train them not too though.
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Yeh, mouthy with me, wants to chew/tug/play with my hands, sleeves, feet....I love it actually, some of my visitors do and some a bit less.... :D
Yes, there are reasons why everyone has labs, they are absolutely what I would recommend as a family dog.
But I loves my Goldies and I think Flatcoats are gorgeous too and one day I may well succumb.
Eta: a good sense of humour is required! I should just have taken a video of me trying to dry the soggy Daisy, who has just come in from playing in the beck and who is about to sleep on my bed. Her aim in the process is to kill the towel, to play tug and generally get the most fun out of it. She does not share my aim of transferring water from her coat to the towel at all :roflanim:
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Although I have never owned one, I know lots of flatties - one of whom has just sadly died aged 13. They are all gorgeous, but all loopy and not the easiest to train, but fantastic characters. I knew a couple curly coated when I was a youngster, and know a curly coat / Labrador cross now, and they were / are all very calm dogs. If I had to choose a retriever myself, I would go for a curly coat, although I recall the ones I knew years ago lived at a riding stables, and their curly coats meant they were permanently completely covered in hay!
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Hmm, lots to think about there - thank you everyone. How do I go about finding a lab that's a working type and not got the odd-looking frame that I often see on labs? (You can tell I'm a BC sort of person!)
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Odd looking ..... ????? :o :roflanim:
Working labs on the whole are lighter framed than show/ pet type labs. Bitches can be quite small and 'foxy' looking .... dogs not so much so.
You could try asking at local shoots/ gamekeeper/ KC advertise litters on their site/ local gundog clubs. etc etc
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Odd looking ..... ????? :o :roflanim:
Working labs on the whole are lighter framed than show/ pet type labs. Bitches can be quite small and 'foxy' looking .... dogs not so much so.
You could try asking at local shoots/ gamekeeper/ KC advertise litters on their site/ local gundog clubs. etc etc
Not always true - depends on whether they are line bred and to what type. My sisters 6 year old boy is big, with a sturdy look about him, could work all day - loads of stamina. Totally working lines, I know both parents, helped choose the sire, and whelped the litter for my pal.
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Yes, of course, they vary quite a lot in height, frame, head size and so on. I suppose they are bred primarily for function and not looks, hence the variety.
But I know exactly what MF means and most people with labs would. Gamekeepers wife said the other day that she likes my young lab as she has more 'body' than a lot that she sees on the shoot. She really doesn't like the look of most working lab bitches. She thinks they look like not very pretty whippets. ;D
So yes, MF, take a look at the parents. May give some idea about how the pups will turn out but not a guarantee.
If you are a collie person, similar thing I guess. My neighbours collies range widely in size and appearance. He likes to breed smaller/faster dogs but gets a good mix. Same with working labs I think.
If you like a heavier frame and don't intend to work then look at show/pet labs maybe. I know very little about non working lines. When I was ringing round looking for my present pup I spoke to a breeder who had owned both. She preferred working lines in many ways but did say that her show labs had tended to be more laid back and less sensitive. They were in general better with strangers/ more trusting she found. Horses for courses. ;D
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Since the question was 'not a Labrador retriever' I thin k we have digressed a little. :innocent:
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What about an Irish water spanial - rare breed - make lovely pets - great with family, are a spanial but work as retrievers. Otherwise I would recommend a flattie - the one I knew was called Duffy (as in duffel coat) and she was one of the best dogs I have ever known.
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Yes, not a Lab seems to have evolved into OK then, Lab, but where do I get a good 'un?!
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Do you want to work it? .....
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What part of the country are you in? If you want a working Lab then I can give you names from almost anywhere in the UK, but if it is to be a family pet and you don't want the intense nature of a working strain then could i suggest you check Warringah (http://www.warringah.org.uk/ (http://www.warringah.org.uk/)) - Carole works hers for their Show gundog Working Certificate, and occasionally field trials, but they are basically show bred - but up on the legs a bit more than most.
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We're in Herefordshire. It would be trained, sure, but not for game retrieval.
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if you are getting a lab, please check hips and elbows, as my choc lab suffers from arthritis and has done since 18mths old.
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I agree. Any breeder I recommend would have done all the required health checks
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I love the flatcoats. Haven't owned one but I love the nature. It would suit my lifestyle, bouncy and fun, which is why I choose working line GSD instead of ploddy show lines ;D
Preferred breed is down to lifestyle compatibility, we are all different and the breeds we choose are just as diverse. Happy choosing :sunshine: :dog:
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It would suit my lifestyle, bouncy and fun, which is why I choose working line GSD instead of ploddy show lines
maybe thats what mine is then - because she is bonkers, ha. always has been and at 10 is still a live wire. ;D ;D
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Flatties are lovely so are Setters (just to throw another breed in there, rare also!), a bit air headed, both breeds. You really can't go wrong with a good lab though. I'd love a fox red bitch.