The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: kanisha on May 23, 2014, 06:37:37 pm
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My wether greeted me this morning minus one of his horns and a bloody face.
Hes had antibiotics spray and injectable. Fly repellant applied and the whole area clipped and cleaned but he has managed to remove what would appear to be the whole central core of the horn leaving a deep socket, at the bottom of which is a sinus which must connect somewhere to his nasal passage or mouth. i can hear him breathing through his horn and any liquid applied that trickles into the sinus makes him cough and splutter. I have covered it and bandaged things to prevent fly strike but does anyone have any long term suggestions for how to prevent the deep socket becomming a magnet for dirt and what is the hole??!! thanks ;D
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Damn, he's done a good job hasn't he!
Here is what I found out:
He will have created a hole into the frontal sinus. Cover or plug the hole with clean gauze that is changed daily until the wound heals. Daily sprays of furacin or Topazone TM are also indicated, especially for the first week or so.
This hole will require a long time to heal shut, but eventually it will fill with bone and be covered with skin. For this reason, if dehorning, it is best done soon after the fly season is over to prevent fly maggots from appearing on the wound or in the sinus. Another reason to keep it covered is to prevent dust and hay chaff from falling into the sinus cavity and causing an infection. If the sinus does become infected, daily drainage by twisting the head so the fluid runs out the hole followed by topical antibiotic application in the form of furacin spray or mastitis treatment is indicated. Do not use any of the preparations containing Gentian violet or other pretty-colored disinfectants because they damage the living cells of the sinus musoca as much as they do the bacteria.
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thank you excellent explanation and yes he's done it good n proper!! ::) ::) :sheep:
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When cattle are dehorned at a later stage they get the same thing. The vet always reassures us that it's fine, applies antibiotic spray and fly repellent, and isn't concerned about a bit of pus-y discharge for a few days so long as it's clearly healing.
But yes, we do them out of fly season. I'd be at it daily (or nearly) with the fly repellent, and probably try to cover the holes with fine gauze or something, if there were flies about.
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thank you :) gauze has been applied followed by wrap around crepe banadage but will redo the fly repellant at the same time.
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I'm not sure about the crepe - it's important to let it breathe, I think
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It needs something to keep the gauze in place. I'm not sure what else would work that would let it breathe?
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We had a Jacob tup lamb who did exactly the same thing. It was spurting blood from a ruptured artery and you could see the brain pulsating. We gripped the artery until it stopped bleeding (ages) and whipped him down to the vets. He gave LA antiB cover and put an eyepatch over the horn. This was wrapped on with a sticky permanent bandage which clings to itself and was a daring bright red. I can't remember if this was changed with any frequency but it did lead to him being called 'Jimlad', but with no parrot on his shoulder. We sent him off for slaughter at 7 months, still wearing his patch.
Obviously a huge danger is infection getting in to what is a direct route to the brain.
Just seen your post SitN - I think the permanent cover is because it's more important to prevent infection getting directly to the brain, rather than healing the wound by exposure. vet tied the self clinging bandage fairly tightly at first to exert pressure on the wound.
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thanks the self clinging bandage will be vetwrap, lovely stuff :) My vets suggestion was to pour dermisol cream into the socket. i haven't gone with that yet but do feel i need to try something down there as otherwise its going to be a very unpleasant sticky mess. I don't think I can wash it out it will just pour stuff down into his nose :( The socket is about an inch deep, later I though I would dremel down the horn to a much lower level but i think he hs a bit of a headache at the moment :-) I have heard of people using resin to fill the deficit or even beeswax but I don't know if either is appropriate. Honey?
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I've never treated sheep but I have drilled holes into dog and cat frontal sinuses for irrigation of nasty resistant infections.. and it really isn't nice coughing and spluttering horrid tasting stuff down noses and backs of throats. Dermisol cream I also hated as it never stuck well on surfaces..on the other hand I loved dermisol liquid for irrigating cavities although again I've never shoved that down a sinus either.
One trick to avoid wrapping bandages around heads and risking neck or throat swelling choking the patient is to suture buttons around the wound and button the dressing changes on. A simple trick to place the sutures used to be to pop some monofillament nylon thread down the bore of a syringe needle, pinch a tiny fold of skin and pop the needle through...grab end of line and pull needle out backwards slipping it off the line.. add button, knot and repeat for next.
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Ingenious! I'm gonna love the conversation with my vet in the morning :)
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Off topic but two quick true stories that might amuse:
Back in prehistory we used to suture buttons on dogs ears for aural haematomas. I favoured the two-hole cardigan buttons from the high street oxfam shop and sterilised well. I could get quite artistic with the colour range. On a follow-up home visit the interior designer turned up and saw patient. "Ooh-er, nice. How much to get some sown on my dog?"
Nasal aspergillosis was a huge problem to treat in dogs. So when diflucan first came out for ladies yeast problems I rang Pfizer to speak to the vet advisor about possible use in the dog. Somehow my request to talk about 'a fungal problem up my doggies nose' got routed through to the ladies help line without my knowledge and the most surreal conversation with a rep who thought I was using euphamisms before we sorted things...
(things progress. The last nasty aspergillosis case we treated we drilled, used endoscopes to pick out all the fungal plaques, scraped the lining and packed it all with canestan liquid with the exits plugged, rolled the patient around for an hour and drained. Repeat weekly for 3-4 weeks)
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We had a Jacob tup lamb who did exactly the same thing. It was spurting blood from a ruptured artery and you could see the brain pulsating. We gripped the artery until it stopped bleeding (ages) and whipped him down to the vets. He gave LA antiB cover and put an eyepatch over the horn. This was wrapped on with a sticky permanent bandage which clings to itself and was a daring bright red. I can't remember if this was changed with any frequency but it did lead to him being called 'Jimlad', but with no parrot on his shoulder. We sent him off for slaughter at 7 months, still wearing his patch.
Obviously a huge danger is infection getting in to what is a direct route to the brain.
Just seen your post SitN - I think the permanent cover is because it's more important to prevent infection getting directly to the brain, rather than healing the wound by exposure. vet tied the self clinging bandage fairly tightly at first to exert pressure on the wound.
The pulsating you describe will be the membrane on the inside of the sinus, which doesn't always get opened when the horn breaks or is cut off. It often will move out and in with the breathing, as it is connected to the nose through the sinus. It is not a direct route to the brain, and as nasal passages commonly have some dirt and bugs kicking around, a hole into the sinus is not usually too serious a problem.
As advised, id keep covered to keep bits of straw etc to a minimum, keep on top of fly spray, and it will get there eventually.
all the best
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There and I've believed my vet for all these years when he said it was the brain - well, the meninges I suppose ;D
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Somehow my request to talk about 'a fungal problem up my doggies nose' got routed through to the ladies help line without my knowledge and the most surreal conversation with a rep who thought I was using euphamisms before we sorted things...
;D
Well, Gary the wether is looking a little sorry for himself this morning but bandage still in situ. Thanks for all the input hopefully its just a matter of time.
Gary in better days
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd278/SperedBreizh/GaryOuessantsheepssm_zpsda7c038d.jpg)
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Two weeks on and I'm not so hopeful for a long term solution. The horn walls are lined with vascularised tissue which shows no signs of healing although clean and not infected neither does any of the interior of the hole which is almost 1.5 inches in depth. He no longer loses any fluid down his nose so I guess that sinus has closed over. I can spy another to the rear of his head. I am struggling to see long term how this is going to heal and not leave him with a large pit into which all and sundry willl accumulate. Apart from me manually fishing stuff out it will then be a resevoir for potential infection.
Does anyone have any bright ideas?
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No bright ideas I'm afraid as I've never had any experience in this area but I did want to say great job so far with this. Not easy to get as far as this. Well done!
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thank you Yeoman I don't feel that I've done very much but thank you.
I have an idea running around in my head i don't know if its a useable one or not. If I was to pack the socket with gelatin sponge would that help speed the filling in process or is it not really likely to happen, anyone know?
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Update the decision was made to arrange for euthanasia as I was concerned over the long term prospects for him. I waited until my usual vet was back off holiday, for his counsel. Imagine my relief when he volunteered that it will heal ( he has seen the same type of problem in a calf) and that honey was as good as anything to help keep it clean and healing. I don't have huge expectations but am more positive things will work out. :fc: :fc: :sheep: :sheep:
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I'm not a nurse but I know that when folk have deep bedsores, there is something the nurses use to pack the wound. Maybe that would be suitable? If the alternative is pts then anything is worth a try. :fc:
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PTS sounds drastic but if the long term option is a risk of flystrike on an open wound or infection then I don't see an alternative.
I looked up the types of packing used for bed sores I think you are talking about alginate dressings? I don't have the experience to know if this is a better option but will mention it to my vet thank you
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Old blackie ewes often break their horns and ive never had one not heal over . In an emergency to stop a horn bleeding I use cobwebs which are very effective
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Its not the horn that needs to heal its the gap between his skull and the base of his horn with no central core, a cotton bud disappears inside completely :-\
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When an blackie breaks a horn it can break level with the skull and rip part of the scalp as well ive seen holes down to the sinus big enough to put your thumb in and they still heal over . only ever bandage around the head and remaining horn in summer , in cold weather just leave
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Ok thankyou :) wow those sheep must be tough. I was very discouraged after speaking to one of the other vets at the practice last week but that makes me feel a whole lot more positive. We like having the fella around alot :hugsheep:
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Treat well for flies and keep away from the nibbling little sods and it will be fine. They have evolved bashing horns together so tend to heal really well. Chop the horns off a big steer and you can just about drop a golf ball in the hole into the skull sinuses. Always heal.
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Photos about three weeks after the break , thats honey around the top not pus!
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd278/SperedBreizh/garyshead3_zpsc3de5e01.jpg)
And photo from yesterday several months later, I am really hoping its going to close over.
(http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd278/SperedBreizh/gary_zps4dc24515.jpg)
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One of the things used to pack wounds is an expanding foam - squirt it into the hole and it expands to fit. As the hole heals from the bottom up, the foam plug can be replaced with ever smaller ones. The wound must heal from the bottom up or there will be a healed over hole with a reservoir of infection inside, and no way to drain. I'm sure you know that. A similar expanding foam is used in the building trade to fill holes which are not a regular shape.
The alginate dressings are seaweed, but I don't think they are used so much now. I always thought seaweed was great, but it does nip a bit, and has to be redressed frequently.
It does look as if the horn is healing well, but I see what you mean about the hole filling up with gubbins and having to be flushed out, which can be done with a large syringe, no needle, of normal saline, then suck out any fluid left at the end of the process.
Well done for how he's recovering.
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thank you Fleecewife, I confess it has been a learing curve hence I thought I'd put the pictures up. From the initial break which was bloody but with the ever present large hole in the top of his head. Things I have learnt, no sinus's have healed over infact taking the last pic his breath was steaming up my lense :o . I can still flush the hole which I do from time to time. I am guesssing that the interior is a bit like the linning of the nasal passage, it doesn't appear at risk of infection, although we are careful to keep things clean and not let stuff drop into it. Once flushed his nose will run a bit so there is still a patent connection from top of head to bottom. The healing of the external horn itself is a bit like the rings on a tree in ever decreasing concentric circles but the build up horn is very slow. I really hope it does heal up as I don't want to think it will need attention for ever. I would love to put a plug in it but fear that might actually prevent the final closure of the hole. if anyone else has any experience of getting the horn to close over I would love to know more.
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Put a skin over the top of two part epoxy resin (its solid like playdough) the horn will heal on the inside underneath the resin.
We had it on a Jacob x once after a cretin of a shearer pulled it off, that healed just fine over the year with no intervention. And that was after I droped coarse mix in the hole whilst trying to catch him.
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thanks MKay :) does the resin stick to the horn alright?
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Bit of an odd suggestion...but you could fit a ball with a hole in over the top & glue to the remaining horn. Its hard to tell the size but a ping pong ball or tennis ball may work. A Christmas bauble could look good! That would keep the debris out but let the horn inside grow over. Or a condom?
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Brilliant! I think a ping pong ball might work well, thank you. :idea: Love the idea of a christmas bauble not so sure he would be keen ;D I am now left with the image of a sheep inflating a condom on his head ;D ;D ;D
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Kanisha, i've just read this thread and am so impressed by your commitment and perseverance....as you write, what a learning curve it must've been... I (selfishly) really hope that i never have to experience this, so far I've just had the horn broken off at the skull - bloody but nothing like you've described - but if i ever wake up to more i'm afraid i'll be 'pm'-ing you immediately for specialist advice! Well done, and hope it goes on improving....
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Thank you Brendon, as it happens the old ram fractured both his horns close to the base today after a run in with a younger fitter ram, I guess some never learn :) :sheep: :sheep:
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Yeah it will stick to anything and is semi permanent. It will come off when the horn is regrown. Costs 5-10 per tube.use it to make a cast on the old rams fractures it will reinforce them.