The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: JEP on May 20, 2014, 05:44:12 pm
-
Hi I am after some legal advice. I have rented out my small field for horses. The tenants horse got out and has served the neighbours mares. She said as the landlord I have to pay her vet bills is that true or should the tenant have to pay help please thanks john
-
hi where are you,
i can't help but i know the law is different in scotland to england and wales for such things so it will make a difference to advice given...
-
have you insurance?
is it a field lease or some kind of assisted livery?
do you have a contract?
surely the livestock owner is responsible for this?
-
Hi I am in Nantwich Cheshire thanks
-
No just for grazing and yes he has a contract for 6 months
-
is there something written in the contract that he is fully responsible for the horse?
i presume you knew he was a stallion?
i think the lady is calling your bluff and still upset.
-
No did not put that he is fully reliable is that where I become liable
-
id say for your sake find a solicitor with experience of agricultural law, it sounds like an obscure case that will require an expert.
in the meantime id make the tenant very aware you believe they are liable for not ensuring they had adequately secured an intact male near other horses...
-
I'm not a solicitor so treat this with caution! In the absence of any formal agreement I'd say it is for the owner of the stallion to take all reasonable steps to ensure that it does not get out. Personally I'd tell the neighbour that it is not your stallion and that the owner (Tenant) is responsible. On a commercial farm the tenant is usually responsible for fencing his stock unless their is an agreement to the contrary.
Most reputable horse owners would have their animals insured surely? What if it got on the road and someone was killed in a car crash?
-
Hi
There is no legislation that deals with the keeping of stallions.
However, the general rule is that the owner of the stallion must ensure the fencing is sufficient to prevent him from straying. Also, the owner of any mare/s that he visits must also ensure he can't get in and they (the mares) can't get out to visit him. It's down to your tenant to sort it out, not you
-
You refer to the stallions owner as a Tenant, if they are a tenant then they would be responsible for the security of the boundaries and therefore the containment of their stock, so in my opinion you couldn't be held responsible for the stallions escape. But if your stallions owner uses the land under the terms of a grazing license you would be responsible for the upkeep of the boundaries so maybe you could be responsible for the escape. But the owner of the stallion should still make regular walks to see if the boundaries are good and draw your attention to the need for repair. Did the horse enter the other fields through a broken boundary or did the stallion jump the boundary? Not many fences would contain a stallion when there are mares in adjacent fields. I think the owner is probably responsible for any damages, but take some legal advice ASAP.
-
If it was purely a grazing licence with nothing written in regarding responsibility for fence or other maintenance, then unfortunately, I must agree with AndynJ's comments.
-
I also agree with Andy but with the added thought that has also been mentioned - if the neighbour turned her mares out in season in the proximity of a stallion and nature took it's course then she as landowner also has responsibility for the risks taken and her part in maintaining appropriate boundaries, be they the fencing, a secondary gap maker fence (electrified for instance) to keep her mares a safe distance or more sensible by far, putting them somewhere else when blatantly in season. A stallion can not be blamed for what his hormones do if she is aggravating him either intentionally to create trouble and get rid of your tenant, or through bl**dy minded ignorance. It is always the people the law should look at, not the animals doing as nature intended. I would suggest you look at her part in it and mention the possibility of a counter claim for the damage to fences and trouble with your tenant that affects business income. She might be using it as a means of getting rid of the nasty stallion - some folk are like that, and if so I wouldn't give her the satisfaction.
Honestly it's all about sueing the pants of everyone for everything these days - folk used to have more sense than to taunt a stallion, and if there was an "accident" then half the time it wasn't accidental but means to get a free service, but nobody sued for it, just dealt with it or kept the foals and sold them. Just saying it isn't always the stallion's fault, nor his owners.
Also if you willingly entered a grazing agreement for him then yes you accepted liability - it's one reason a lot of liveries closed down when the law started to pursue livery owners for welfare costs for abandoned/miskept horses, not to mention they still don't get to keep/sell the abandoned ones whose negligent owners left lots of unpaid bills..
Stallions aren't nutters by and large, but a reasonable precaution you presumably took or would leave yourself way open for, is an electric enhanced fence at the boundary of grazing in all directions but particularly doubled up if possible where others are close by. For my stallion the fence between him and my other stock has elec wires offset both sides and every alternate post is extra long/deep to prevent casual knock downs. The march fence only had normal post and stock net/wire with one elec wire, but now my neighbour is keeping pet ponies (mares at that, the stupid man) across that single fence it's driving my lad demented so I have to move him in May and he can't go back til October at least. I'm about to add a secondary boundary with a double neck length gap and plant hedging in it to reduce risks for future years as that has been my foal field for 12 years due to being level, overlooked by my office window and the best size of what I have for the stocking level it gets.
I am convinced my neighbour is waiting for him to serve the two wee pony mares and get free foals as he previously asked me the stud fee and I declined on the grounds those mares are a welsh A type and a shetland/welsh type and to me they're dangerously small to be served by my stocky Highland, not to mention the guy wouldn't pay me a bean, I know his rep..
-
just to add i have seen stallion fencing with strainers at every few metres and 6ft high rails. very expensive to build.
one of my highland stallions would have happily leant against electric fencing and barbed wire till they snapped and would climb up stock fencing with his front feet like a ladder. he was very thick skinned and very strong. luckily he wasnt a jumper, and luckily we have no neighbours with ponies. so even a well built stock fence doesnt always contain a stallion.
its a shame for you, things like this ruin it for everyone as it stops people letting out their land.
-
difficult-in my (Scottish) grazing tenancy its very clear that I am responsible for containing my ponies-meaning I had to put in a new fence as the existing one was nonsense. I am sorry because of cause the stallion owner should be liable but afraid if you are liable for the fences then it is possibly you. In future get a tight grazing agreement in place-you'll not be liable for the horse's welfare or anything else under one of those.
-
Lao it said that first month is rent free for doing fencing so would this cover me
-
Did you know the horse was a stallion ? My boy although just a 41in Shetland would go over or through any fence if the mare nextdoor was in season. As a stallion owner, if I was renting a paddock I would be making sure that all fencing was capable of keeping him in. I would also check that no mares were close to him for everyone's safety. I have a neighbour who last year bought a pony mare and stuck it in the paddock right next to my yearling colt with only my fence between them. Lucky I was home and moved him. They now have put up their own fence but I have my boys well away on the hill. In this case I would have said my neighbour would have been at fault.
-
JEP, I've dug out one of our 'Short Term Grazing Let' agreements.
In it, we have the following clauses;
4.2 The Tenant shall not do or suffer to be done on the Holding anything which may be or
become a nuisance or annoyance to the Landlord or the owners or occupiers of any
adjoining land and shall indemnify the Landlord against any claim by third parties in
respect of any breach of this clause.
5 TENANT'S OBLIGATIONS
5.1 The Tenant shall not remove or alter any fence, hedge or other boundary on the
Holding and shall keep all fences, hedges and gates in proper stockproof condition so
as to prevent his stock from straying or being injured and shall indemnify the Landlord
against all costs, claims or demands made by the owners or occupiers of any
adjoining land or any other persons for damages or other money arising from the
escape from the Holding of all or any of the stock placed upon the Holding by the
Tenant.
5.2 The Tenant shall provide the Landlord with a copy of any notice or order affecting the
Holding immediately upon receipt thereof and shall immediately comply with any such
notice or order and shall indemnify the Landlord against all actions, proceedings,
costs, expenses, claims and demands in respect of any matter contravening any
Legal Obligation.
I realise it is a bit late in the day in your case, but may be handy for future reference.
-
The simple answer is that if you keep anything on your land which could damage somebody else's property if it escapes then you're liable for negligence. That principle was set in the mid 19th century (Rylands v Fletcher). Contributory negligence would be a tricky one to prove.
So it all depends on who was responsible for the fencing.
-
But if, as was stated, the fencing was done by the tenant, surely that puts him at fault?
-
Solicitor here :wave:
Rylands -v- Fletcher doesn't apply here. Its a case about artificial constraints of items on land and livestock doesn't fall within that.
For so many reasons... I can't see the basis on which you would be liable.
Easiest thing would be for you to ask the mare's owners on what basis in law you, essentially a third party to this event, are liable .... and then come back
-
I disagree. Leaving aside that horses aren't livestock if my cows go through my fence into your garden and trample it I pay compensation.
-
I disagree. Leaving aside that horses aren't livestock if my cows go through my fence into your garden and trample it I pay compensation.
Yes, so the animal OWNER is liable not the person whose land they are on.
-
While the Animals Act liability of the owner is pretty clear the tests for the Rylands v Fletcher rule developed over the years suggest it might still apply in the case of a stallion.
-
its an interesting thread. its easy to think it would all be in the contract but thinking back to when we leased our field for a year, the solicitor that drew up the lease didnt include anything like straying. just used phrases like good agricultural practise which is very subjective.
we looked at leasing a grass let through a mart, but there was a blanket ban on all lets on their books, for bulls - probably for this reason.
-
Rylands -v- Fletcher is a very specific line of cases on artificial containment. it is a subsect of nuisance (and not now strict liability) following the Cambridge Water case> More pertinently it limits recovery to damage to interests in land. Here the damage asserted is not to real property. It doesn't apply.
Moreover there is a general principle against damage for conception, so I repeat my advice, before you expend money ask this person the legal basis on which the claim is made
-
after asking she said the nfu told her because I own the land and that i am responsible to keep it stock proof although i said in the contract he is responsible for stock proofing and maintaining it so what would be best to do now.
-
Ask Kitchen Cottage fro advice and follow it through!