The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Hellybee on May 08, 2014, 10:40:15 am
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Well the time has come to say good bye to our big Lleyn boys this year, they have been a joy to have around, big soft lumps, such lovely docile natures, it will be a very bittersweet day when they go....
But the show must go on. so we are at sixes and sevens what to go for next.
so what we are looking at is getting a welsh mountain boy for a small group of ewes (i love the welsh in particular, the welsh blood is very special, we have some with welsh blood and they are truly wonderful, intelligent and just add that little bit of something else to the lleyn. but also we dont want to tup the whole flock with them as we dont want a load of welsh ram lambs, but get the chance to select some lovely welsh x ewe lambs...... so thats the quandary, what do we use as our main sire(s)
we dont want charollais (apologies to any enthusiasts but i cant be looking at those mugs in our fields lol ) and we dont want texel, big old heads and i hear mixed comments about the suffolk. Am interested in the NZ Suffolk, ryeland, poll dorset but I can imagine there are many breeds that i know nowt about that would compliment our ewes and live happily on our terrain/climate, so please can you enlighten us.
we are quite high up on the pembrokeshire coastal path, hard winters, gets very wet, even on rocky fields, so need to be hardy.
we want a ram of good size, like the lleyn ram, , excellent limbs and feet (good bone a must), excellent mothering traits.
we are having a good sort out this year of ewes too. we have just over 170 ewes and lambs to choose from, its going to be heartrending but all for the greater good, sigh.....
:wave:
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I have been really impressed with my Hampshire Down ram. Hardy, quick finishing lambs and the ram himself has a superb temperament is easy to handle and biddable.
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pootles off and looks at some of them.... cheers Zak :)
mmm i like the look of them, are they up and at em pretty quick Zak? Not that a slow to start lamb would be a problem we would always go the extra mile, but dont want to going have to lamp em all etc, as i appreciate we would ve had to do with say the charollais?
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Probably not your thing but you aren't far away from me on the Pembrokshire coast path you are welcome to come and see the Charmoise. If not look on Charmoise Sheep Breeders on Facebook for an idea of what they are. There are photos of newborn Lleyn x Charmoise twin lambs from Lleyn yearlings, need a sunny day to take another photo! Also some at NCE mart out of Glamorgan Welsh ewe lambs (probably from a lot higher than you) - would like to call them Glamoise.. these would be by the ram lamb shown on the left <<<< here
I think I have the group settings so visitors can see photos etc, let me know if that is not the case
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:wave: I have pedigree charollais and they didn't require a lamb! I found them to be keen lambs up and growing. I really like the Charollais crosses, You get quick growth etc with other qualities of the cross!
I like my field of 'mugs' :innocent:
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You can buy or hire a Southdown from me and see how you get along! Getting increasing enquiries from shepherds who don't want the thin skins of the Charollais or the lambing problems of the Texel and Beltex, including a farmer lambing Scotch Mules outside at 1000 ft in February who took a couple of rams from me 4 years ago. Don't be misled by the "South" part of their name - the South Downs are high and bare and have the thin, wiry grasses of the chalk downs. The Downs are also the first high ground the winds hit coming off the English Channel, so soft they are not! I put my Badger Face to a SD every other year and have excellent lambs - quick to suckle, vigorous, good fleece and conformation and grow away well without creep.
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I dont know what to suggest, but I think the ryeland would be too soft, I have had ryeland cross shetlands and cross wiltshire horns
None of the lambs did as well as the charollais crosses, their feet are bad, I dont like the wooly legs and faces, they lost weight in the winter, and they had higher incidences of mucky bums, wool is course and not nice
I know most of TAS are avid ryeland fans... so I'm sorry if I offended anyone
Charollais lambs are not ugly, and lots of charollais rams are hairy faced and look like normal sheep, below is a charollais cross shetland ewe
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Duckberry/DSC_0072_zps4a5d85c2.jpg)
Or the Charmoise is smaller but more shapely than the charollais with a very high KO%, they are much quicker to get up and go, and they have white hair on thier faces, very easy lambing and very tough, I am very impressed with my charmoise lambs and next year all of my ewes will go to the charmoise
Photo below is of a (very cute) 2 day old charmoise lamb, showing his furry face and umm cuteness
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Duckberry/IMG_20140315_124808_zpsa48e21d0.jpg)
Photo below is a Charmoise ram lamb (far left of the photo) he is much bigger now but I dont have a new photo of him
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Duckberry/IMG_20140310_181226_zps3b32a60b.jpg)
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What about a Beulah speckled face as you're in the right part of the country? Would cover both ram requirements as they are welsh mountain types, but are big and confirmation wise can produce good finishing lambs, but are also nice small, easy pushed out, quick to get up lambs, and I've seen a farmer use them on mule hoggs with very few reuiring any assistance, and he kept the cross lambs as good breeding stock.
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pootles off and looks at some of them.... cheers Zak :)
mmm i like the look of them, are they up and at em pretty quick Zak? Not that a slow to start lamb would be a problem we would always go the extra mile, but dont want to going have to lamp em all etc, as i appreciate we would ve had to do with say the charollais?
I can honestly say that I have never experienced lambs that arrive with such vigour. Mine are up on their feet so quickly and many come out trying to suck on your fingers!! I have never had to put them under a lamp - they are keen to get on with life and are jumping about in no time at all!
My ram prior to the Hampshire Down was a Charollais and I would NEVER go back to one of them now.
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Why do you want to switch from using Lleyn rams? What characteristics of them do you want to improve on?
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dont want to going have to lamp em all etc, as i appreciate we would ve had to do with say the charollais?
Absolutely not! :huff:
We use Charollais mainly because we get slippery lambs easily born and very active, straight round to the milk bar. Of the breeds I've used, only Shetland are more active and good at finding and using the teat.
For a cold wet place you would choose a Charollais with wool on his head, this indicates a more woolly animal and most of the lambs will have a reasonable covering. We do put the plastic macs on them if it's wet when they are born, and the odd couple will get brought into a shed with mum for protection from the weather if they are very bare-skinned.
(I know you don't like them and won't choose them, but I can't let you get away with suggesting they would all need the lamp. That's the opposite of my experience - on a north Cumbrian hill farm lambing outdoors.)
I know there are good and bad examples of all breeds, so I expect to get shot down by Suffolk supporters, but I have found Suffolks to be big-boned (difficult lambings), dopey (lambs won't get up and suck, often have to be tubed and held to the teat) and to have terrible feet.
We find the Dutch Texel to be very good, but you have to choose a tup with easy lambing in mind. Narrow shoulders, not overlarge and not excessively over-muscled at the rear is what we look for, which sadly is not what they breed for, so in my view they are ruining the breed at the moment. :(
Whatever you do choose, please let us know how you get on!
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Absolutely not! :huff:
We use Charollais mainly because we get slippery lambs easily born and very active, straight round to the milk bar. Of the breeds I've used, only Shetland are more active and good at finding and using the teat.
For a cold wet place you would choose a Charollais with wool on his head, this indicates a more woolly animal and most of the lambs will have a reasonable covering. We do put the plastic macs on them if it's wet when they are born, and the odd couple will get brought into a shed with mum for protection from the weather if they are very bare-skinned.
(I know you don't like them and won't choose them, but I can't let you get away with suggesting they would all need the lamp. That's the opposite of my experience - on a north Cumbrian hill farm lambing outdoors.)
I too have never put a charollais under a lamp, my charollais cross zwartbles lambs were dopey yes but charollais lambs born to the shetland ewes were wooly and happy to be outside and quick on thier feet
the lambs out of my hampshire down cross charollais ram lamb have been dopey and slow to get going in comparison and my friend who breeds pedigree recorded hampshires always has very very dopey lambs.
However as zacthelad says hers are up and running and were fine so there are variations within the breed.
but everyones lamb vigour is of course rated differently!! if I have to show a lamb a teat or rub it off then I say it has no vigour... other people may say it didnt go under a heat lamp so therefore has vigour :p
Charollais have been normal and better than hampshire cross, shetland and charmoise lambs have been the same, hit the ground running and dont come back!!!
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Total breed assassination coming up! This explains the "nutter" in fsmnutter! The Beulah has to be about the worst conformed ewe going!! Next to the Lleyn cross Charmoise the Beulah crosses are poor. I bought 15 to make up the numbers last year and wish I hadn't! Also mad, not a bit mad, totally mad. Mad f. crazy mad. Did I mention mad?
Though if you want some Beulahs.... I just happen to have some lovely ones, one careful owner...
To be fair I have a few Lleyn/Beulah ewes and they do a fair job.. also a bit mad. Lleyn are nice have you considered them? (!)
If Dutch are of interest Mr Jan Rodenburgh lives not far away, "Turbo" texels
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I'm thinking of using a blue Texel on all but my shearling Shetlands next year.
Reasoning: they don't have such big heads as the British white Texels, so easier lambing, they're woollier than Charollais, which matters where I live (oop North and oop high), and the blue colour is recessive so I should keep coloured fleeces in the lambs and the fleeces should still be worth having.
Plus if I have to look at a meat-breed tup, the blue Texels are slightly less ugly than average.
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I think the key thing to look for, whatever the breed, is that the animal is NOT from show stock. Breeding for appearance only exaggerates things that catch the eye in the showring but are, in my experience, generally undesirable for "real" life. I think the Suffolk has been bred to be big-boned, for instance, and the lambs are so big the lambing process tires both them and the ewe, leaving the lambs too exhausted to suckle and the ewe with the undeserved reputation of being "too posh to push".
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Plus if I have to look at a meat-breed tup, the blue Texels are slightly less ugly than average.
Had leg of Charmoise for dinner last night - it didn't taste ugly - it tasted beautiful!
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thank you all very much, i only say about the charollais under lamps as one of our neighbours had a bit of a time of it getting them up and running lol
so what is the chamoise?? a charollais crossed with what?
i appreciate good conformation be it pony or sheep. i want excellent well balanced limbs that therefore allow for well balanced feet/hooves, good heartroom, excellent backends, tailset and hindleg.
are the blus texels narrower through the brow?
yes, i am asking myself, why dont we get more lleyns.
oh decisions, decisions lol x
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they don't have such big heads as the British white Texels, so easier lambing
Once you're into Texels, IMO the size of the head is irrelevant. I've never had a Texel x lamb whose head was the largest part. The shoulders are larger and the hips can be larger still. Which is why we select tups with narrow shoulders and not overly double-muscled backsides. ;)
One big difference I have found coming to BH's farm and working with Texel types over my experiences on the moorland farm with Swales and Mules as mothers to Swale, Blue-faced Leicester and Texel and Beltex tups is that when helping a mum to lamb a Texel, the meaty-type mums pretty much always need both legs forward whereas the roomier Swales and Swaley Mules would often be able to lamb with one front leg back. So again - it's the shoulders that are the sticking point. ;)
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so what is the chamoise?? a charollais crossed with what?
A Charmoise is its own breed, it isnt crossed with anything, full name is Charmoise Hill Sheep
They are older than a charollais and they helped form the charollais breed (according to websites)
The Charmoise hill sheep website is down for some reason but this has some good info on them
http://bramcotemain.wordpress.com/charmoise-sheep-sales/ (http://bramcotemain.wordpress.com/charmoise-sheep-sales/)
The ewes are short and wide, weigh around 55-60kgs, the rams weigh around 80kgs
Wool is very good quality and they are nice tempered sheep, the lambs are known for extremely easy lambing, they are born very tiny with teeny tiny heads and shoulders and then they grow like weeds from the moment they are born
You should go and visit "Me" if he is close to you and have a look at his if you are interested, mine are on downland grass that grows faster than they can eat so may look different to the ones that are up free ranging in the hills of "Me's" farm
Below is the photo of Charmoise sired lleyn cross lambs (taken from the charmoise sheep breeders facebook group)
(https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc3/t1.0-9/10150607_10152018923598616_1807370193_n.jpg)
And this is a photo of my pure bred charmoise lambs at 5 weeks of age
(https://scontent-b-lhr.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1.0-9/10256802_778877065470381_6110993307862318728_n.jpg)
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MMM liking the chamoise cross lleyn!
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A couple of photos of my Charmoise ewes
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Duckberry/charmoiseewe_zps6bc7d432.jpg)
A ewe showing her nice bag
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Duckberry/DSC_0039_zps82574736.jpg)
Lambs at 3 and a half weeks old
(http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b316/Duckberry/charmoiselambs3weeksold_zpsc0416871.jpg)
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I will be selling the Charmoise x Lleyn at Cardigan again this year so you could virtually roll out of bed and see what they go for if you are interested!
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When are you putting them through? we tend to go Crymych :)
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Go to your bedroom window, look out with binoculars, they are mine, no not those they are yours, right a bit, yes them. Alternatively its the ones in the truck shown in the photo higher up the page with green marker on them
We have sold a few rams in your area (some of these people sell through Cardigan and Crymych) maybe you know some of them and can ask them how they got on?
Buy a Charmoise and start selling at Cardigan instead of Crymych!
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According to Wikipedia, the Charmoise breed was developed in the middle 19th century in the centre of France by crossing imported Romney sheep from United Kingdom to ewes from local breeds (Merino, Berrichon, Solognot.)
If any are about up this way, or get sold through Carlisle, I think we will be going to have a look-see ;)
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You may get David selling from Bramcote Mains up your way but not many are making the trip
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On my first look-see I came away with three in lamb ewes and a ram lamb :eyelashes:
I was pleasantly surprised by how feminine and pretty the ewes were, I dont know why but I was prepared to find them much more ugly and piglike than they were in the flesh, but they had pretty girly faces with white hair and the softest loveliest fleeces
I am also suprised at how easy they are to handle, I hand sheared mine which took forever due to my lack of practice and they literately fell asleep during the shearing :thumbsup: they are my only welsh sheep and they are my easiest to handle and tamest! dont know how that works ::)
Hopefully you get to see some somehow as they really are lovely :)
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Me are you in Verwig then or closeby?
Mmm i prefer the set up of crymych :) x
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Ok so I'm not that close, you would need good binoculars! But I'm not far the nearest I have sheep to you is Pentregat and we are South of Synod Inn just off the main road. Its a pain dropping off at Cardigan isn't it? Crymych is easier
Hand shearing Ladygrey?? Tough woman. If I didn't have clippers I would try a pallet load of Veet hair removal cream before hand shears!
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http://www.baber.co.uk/ (http://www.baber.co.uk/)
Go see this guy for fit/grass fed/performance selected terminal sires ---you won't be disappointed
Texel/Suffolk and SufTex rams---they are not fed anything but grass , they produce lambs that get up and go and subsequently put on weight on grass alone
They are nothing like the tex or Suf rams you will find at the sales
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Hand shearing Ladygrey?? Tough woman. If I didn't have clippers I would try a pallet load of Veet hair removal cream before hand shears!
My electric shears werent working properly, and I struggle with the size and weight (1.6kgs) of the handset, I can hand clip a sheep just as short and neat as the electric clippers, just takes longer and hurts for a few days after
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:wave: hi i have easycare ewes i tupped the bottomend end with a beltex .heavyer lambs at birth but were much slower to get going . pure easycare were up in seconds ,beltex x took good 5-10 mins. fancy a new zeland suffolk this year ,or a hampshire but just read some posts here they can be slow to ??? .
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What is fast or slow? anyone got the data? I felt a Charmoise ewe lamb had been really quick to get up and go and re-wound cctv to time her and from hitting the floor to both up and successfully suckling the teat was 2 mins 30 exact, I thought this was very fast (it seemed good!) but is it? What is fast?
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I too would be interested in the national average, or how long it actually is when people say "quick to get up and suck"
my lambs sired by the hampshire down cross charollais must have taken maybe 5 mins to get up, one lay flat for maybe 10 mins before he tried, they look lovely and big now but still no where near as lively as the rest, this might be quick to some people I suppose and im comparing them to more sprightly hill breeds...
my lambs by the charmoise and shetland took around 2 mins, shetlands im sure are born running, had to catch and tag asap before they ran off into the distance
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What is fast or slow? anyone got the data? I felt a Charmoise ewe lamb had been really quick to get up and go and re-wound cctv to time her and from hitting the floor to both up and successfully suckling the teat was 2 mins 30 exact, I thought this was very fast (it seemed good!) but is it? What is fast?
:wave: most of my pure easycares be up well within a minute .outdoor no cctv :P . one i watched lambing it hit the ground suffled round on its knees ,ewe turned a bit and it was sooking would have been 20 seconds max ,still on its knees :thumbsup: . about 3 years ago flock was almost 50/50 easycare and x the other half charollais and xwas not sure which way to go. we had a real cold sleety wet lambing time !!!!..................they are nearly all easycare now
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thats what i like to hear 2 and half mins that s brilliant going!!
my idea of slow is lots of nursing and lights to get them stoked!
Sally i see your point the head always being narrower than the shoulder, i dunno i still dont like the look of them, they look too short in the jaw for me (can tell im a pony person....cant stand short heads in ponies neither lol )
thank you again all for your imput, im sure bazzais will cast his eye over the thread, its good to hear all your two penneth :)
:excited:
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sooking.... one of the most beautiful words ever ahhhh x
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so the easy care (please excuse my stupidity) when do they tend to shed ?
seconds... 1 minute........., ours (the naturals, old hands etc) are pretty quick but under 2.5 mins ..or seconds... i like it :D
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Speed /time of wool shedding is effected by various factors
1) genetic---they have the ability to shed
2) Environmental---weather/temp----as spring comes along they start shedding
3) Sheep condition/stress---barren hogs tend to shed first, then ewes with singles, then those with twins etc
A poorly/sick ewe will not shed wel
I wool scored the hogs last week (score how well they have shed as a %age) and the average was about 60%)
Wool scoring enables us to breed from the earliest and best shedders
There are plenty of different wool shedders about--wiltshires/easycares/dorpers (not so good at shedding) /exlanas etc
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Thank you Tim, thats fascinating, tell me more about the Dorper, what are theyre qualities, good and bad .
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Dorper
Good fleshing/growth rates and nice carcase
Poor shedding compared to wilts/exlana/easycare etc
Terrible feet---they are bred for a dry arid climate and suffer terribly in UK. I used 2 rams in a breeding program (3800 ewes) and I can say that for the next 3 years any animal that was lame had a 90%+ chance of being from one of these Dorper rams
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No good for us then, we are pretty wet here judging by the last few winters. we are on a headland and we get it all!
Whats the exlana? :dunce:
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Exlana is a composite shedding breed, with an emphasis on performance recording, heavy culling/selection and breeding for results, not pretty faces ;) ---'Genetics not cosmetics'
We started with recorded woolly sheep (usually from the top 10% of the recorded breed) and then bought in top shedding genetics from around the world. Wiltshires, Katahadins, Barbados Black Belly, Easycare etc
The lambs are all weighed at birth , 8 weeks, 20 weeks etc . back fat and muscle scanned. Additionally we breed for worm resistance , doing about 1000 individual FEC counts every year. Things like lamb vigour and wool shedding, foot scoring, lambing ease are also recorded for all ewes (5200 in the breeding program at the moment) ---all this is fed into a BLUP evaluation (big statistical engine!) and we select on results
we are also involved in on going research--current projects include trying to identify genetic markers associated with worm resistance, wool shedding genetics & use of FEC EBVs to reduce anthelmintic use
Try www.provensheddingsheep.co.uk (http://www.provensheddingsheep.co.uk) or www.sig.uk.com (http://www.sig.uk.com)
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What is fast or slow? anyone got the data? I felt a Charmoise ewe lamb had been really quick to get up and go and re-wound cctv to time her and from hitting the floor to both up and successfully suckling the teat was 2 mins 30 exact, I thought this was very fast (it seemed good!) but is it? What is fast?
You forgot this, "Me" - :-J
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Me isn't as as fast as Me used to be! I think if you can't even imagine a lamb up in 2 mins 30 its time to change tup!
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Keep coming back now to the charmoise........
Found out that we got a young shepherd coming up today, he's looking to get in some lleyn rams, so that may mean that our boys will escape going to the mart, and also he want s some ewes too, may consider selling some pairs to him too, we shall see!
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They are really lovely :) just relatively unknown and highly underestimated
I would say come and visit mine if you want but that makes no sence at all as I am so far away, go and take a look at "Me's" sheep, you will get a tour of wales and his family are very friendly and welcoming :thumbsup:
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http://www.baber.co.uk/ (http://www.baber.co.uk/)
Go see this guy for fit/grass fed/performance selected terminal sires ---you won't be disappointed
Texel/Suffolk and SufTex rams---they are not fed anything but grass , they produce lambs that get up and go and subsequently put on weight on grass alone
They are nothing like the tex or Suf rams you will find at the sales
Another vote for these as terminals.
Of course you can't beat expanas as a maternal ewe...
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Thank you for you input Steve :)
:wave: