The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Ladygrey on May 01, 2014, 07:18:45 am
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Hi everyone
I wondered if anyone to help me as to what to give/do with my sheltie Laddie
Laddie just turned 9 years old, is very slim and very active and healthy, never really been to the vet before
over the last couple of weeks he has been very stiff and then all of a sudden on friday last week he went from being very active and running around to not wanting to move at all, sitting hunched up like the notre dame and falling over onto his side whilst standing up.
I booked him into the vet as this was very worrying and he is my baby
After having him in the vet for two days, I picked him on monday, they had done full bloodworks, spine and stomach xrays and given him antiinflam, antibiotics and metacam for pain
This has wiped out the whole of my bank overdraft and the money I had put aside for some more shearling ewes next month, cant believe the amount they charged me
The most frustrating thing is, they said there is nothing wrong with laddie, he has old broken ribs from 4 years ago and maybe a sore stomach, they charged me for some laxatives for him and sent me away.
Since monday he has been much better so I assumed it was something to do with his stomach as they said.
Last night he lay down on the floor to sleep and this morning was in the exact same position, I got up, got dressed and called him to come for a walk and he couldnt move, he spun around to face me using his front legs, leaving his back legs on the floor.
I picked him up and carried him outside and he fell over onto the floor
I am so so upset right now, I have spent all of my money at the vet for them to tell me maybe he has a sore stomach, he obviously doesnt have a sore stomach, I think its something to do with his hind legs or hips :(
Does anyone have any idea what this may be and what I can do for him, I love him so much and he is usually such an active dog and so different to the little laddie thats just lying there looking at me :( is this hip dysplasia?
I am expecting someone will anyway but please dont tell me that I am silly for running out of money, should take him back to the vets, its my fault for not putting aside money, I should be able to afford my animals etc
Also he is not insured as they wouldnt insure him when he was young
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Jess - So sorry to hear about Laddie :hug: What a horrible thing to be going through. Have to say I don't think much of your vet for not having discussed costs with you prior to doing all they have apparently done. Also many vets now have an option to pay significant bills over a few months or come to some other payment arrangement so it's s great shame they didn't offer this as an option to you when you collected Laddie.
Is there any chance that he might have been tearing about and pulled something - our lurcher is always doing this (although it does not result in him falling over on his side when standing up). I suppose it could take a little while for the anti-inflams to take affect and so if there is a strain/pulled something or other there should be an improvement in the next day or so.
I guess if it was a hip issue this would have shown up in the x-rays they took?
Sorry I can't be of any real help but hope Laddie recovers really quickly and is soon back to his usual active and healthy self. :hug:
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Sorry, I am absolutely no help to you but :fc: you find out what the problem is and he gets better soon
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Thankyou both :)
The vet did let me know how much the blood tests, full physical examination, eye tests and consultancy fee would cost
but I suppose It was my fault as I didnt ask what the rest of the costs would be, it didnt really matter as I just wanted laddie to be fixed and I would have paid it anyway if I knew.
They charged me for each individual set of xrays, they did three sets, a set for his belly, a set for his rib cage and a set for his spine, they didnt look at anything else or his hind legs
He is a small dog, I dont get why they couldnt just zoom the xray machine out and take a full body shot and then zoom in on areas of concern
They also charged me for stomach tablets, worming tablets (they said I should re worm him), the antinflams, pain killer, antibiotic, time spent in the kennel, and food even though he didnt eat it, general anisthetic etc etc
They should have offered to me to pay it off or mention it then as I didnt ask about this as I didnt know it could be done :(
But I would have paid it anyway as I thought it would uncover what is happening, I did mention to the vet that he is getting the trembles in his back legs and along his spine but I dont think they took that into account
Just trying to figure out what it could be, I am putting my old car on ebay this weekend and I can send away my cull sheep early next month, Laddie and I just have to wait until then, just glad my power and gas are on a meter so its just run out and I dont have to put any more in!
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Stand him up, take one of his back paws and turn it over so the knuckle is on the floor. If he doesn't turn it back automatically it is vestibular - similar to vertigo in humans and can be treated with the same drugs. If it isn't that, he may have pulled muscles and metacam will help so continue with that. Change your vet.
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Thankyou doganjo,
He doesnt want to stand up right now, I will try with him later on, I have given him my sheepskin to make the floor more comfy for him and he seems to like lying on it, I have attached a photo of him, he is so cute :)
As soon as I can get some funds together I will take him to a different vet and get a 2nd opinion for him
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Bless him - he's beautiful :hug: I used to have a rough collie but also love the Shelties. Get well soon Laddie :hug:
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Is he eating and drinking? Did the vet give you metacam for him. The syringe has a calibrated scale on it so stick to the amount on there. It is similar to Ibuprofen for humans so is anti inflammatoryas well as a painkiller, but is best taken with food to avoid stomach issues.
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For goodness' sake, discuss with the vet paying later and get that poor animal seen to. It's not acceptable to have any animal waiting in pain.
You could also ring the PDSA for advice (0800 731 2502); if you are receiving any benefits you would be eligible to receive veterinary treatment for free, I think, but in any case hopefully they will be able to advise you how to go about getting Laddie seen to.
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Don't think much of your vets. I have to agree with others that your dog needs to be seen again. My vets have let me pay by direct debit in the past for a big bill.
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:hug: :hug: :hug:
I think I would ring your vet and ask about having him seen now and paying later. Surely they would understand being that you have had to pay such a large bill only recently.
Think it's a bit odd for the lad to fall onto his side from a standing position .... unless I'm picturing this differently from how it actually happened. Had lots of oldies with failing legs/illness but that seems a bit odd. Wasn't like a fit was it????
When we had lots of oldies needing constant vet. care and meds, our vet actually offered the chance of paying as and when we could afford. Didn't need to .... they were my dads old workers so he helped with bills but it shows that some do understand and will work with you on that side of things.
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So sorry for you and Laddie to have to go through this - how awful!
While I wouldn't trust your vets any further I think it is worth going back to them and telling them that Laddie is still in a bad state and get them to investigate further looking at the information/results they already have?
And could you perhaps ring a different vet and explain the situation and ask if they let you pay in instalments/later on for Laddie to be seen for a second opinion?
Also, as you already paid for all the tests you should be able to get copies of the results to show to the new vet. they may be able to conclude something from that, or at least they will not have to do the same tests/x-rays again.
:fc: for Laddie's speedy recovery!
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Thankyou everybody
Yes I do know that I have to get him to a vet, I have just spent all of my money at the vet and I know I have to get him there again
It was the vet that he is registered at where my family live in Reading, I have booked him into the vet at where Iive in Stroud for 2:10pm this afternoon, I have gone down to the bank and increased my overdraft, they have only increased it by £200 but hoping I can get somewhere with this.
I have spoken to the vet and they will only let me pay it off I have insurance with them and join there club thingy, this give me a certain % off fee's but then I have to pay £30 a month for ever after even if he doesnt have to go to the vet.....
When I said he falls over sideways from standing up, I think he doesnt want to lie down, so he stays standing for so long that his eyes close and he falls alseep on his feet, his legs then give way under him and he lands plonk on his side, not completely stiff like in a cartoon but not onto his belly neither, sort of falls alseep and lands... hard to explain.
I am certain its pain in his hind legs, as he is also now walking and standing with his legs underneath him, hard to explain, rather than having hind legs out behind him, they are directly underneath his body
Sorry if I upset anyone, was just trying to see if anyone had something similiar or had any ideas as to what it could be at all
Will let you know how it goes this afternoon
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Good luck at the vets Jess - let us know how you get on. Hopefully Laddie has just pulled something whilst tearing around and it is painful for him to lie down. My lurcher had the opposite in that he pulled something in his neck and didn't want to get up once he had led down as it was painful for him to do so. He has made a full recovery. :fc: :hug:
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Glad to know your lurcher made a full recovery, thankyou Emily :)
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Hope you get on okay at vets. A couple of months ago my big beardie couldn't get up, he was fine the night before, with difficulty we got him to the vets he got steroid injection and tramadol. Was about 3 days before he managed to get up without us helping him, back to vets and put on trocoxil but apart from that I've been taking him to canine massage lady locally, what a difference, his movement is so much better. His muscle tone is improved.
He'd obviously just did something to his back, so glad we gave him time to recover and didn't rush into having him pts.
AnnS
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Hi AnnS! Glad your dog is better now! maybe its something similar with laddie! who knows
Went to the Vet at 2, he did a full exam of Laddie and found no stiffness anywhere, was happy with all of his joints and neck and paws being turned over and laddie rights them again, temperature fine, no pain in the stomach, he was unimpressed at the tablets I was sent home with from the other vets for laddie
They were just antisickness tablets, no painkillers or anything
Laddie of course was walking ok when we were at the vet but I told him laddie cant get up, wont go up stairs, jump onto chairs etc etc
He has put laddie on Metacam for every day and after a week I am to call him and let him know if its taken affect, he says if Laddie is feeling better then its muscular or arthritis based and then just keep him on the metacam, if Laddie is not feeling better then will have to think of something else.
I gave laddie the first dose, he is still unable to stand up from sitting on his own, I filmed him to show the vet next time, it worries me as now I cant leave laddie on his own as he gets stuck in one place
So time will tell if the metacam takes affect and if Laddie improves :)
The vet was shocked at how much they charged and that they only sent me home with antisickness drugs
For today which was a consultancy appointment, full body exam and 3 weeks supply of metacam it cost £44!!!! the same at the vet back home (apart from it wasnt metacam it was wormer!) cost me £200!!
Just taken Laddie out for a wee wee but he cant stand up long, cant wait for the metacam to kick in :fc: :fc: :fc:
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:fc: that Laddie starts to feel better soon.
Well done for getting him to another vet.
I'm wondering whether you may even have a case against your first vet for negligence. There was someone had to go through that about a year ago and wrote about it on here... can anyone remember who it was and can find the thread? I know they wrote up what they did to make a claim, and one of the legal folks (Kitchen Cottage would it have been?) gave them some legal advice.
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Metacam should take effect within an hour, but you might not see much improvement for a few days.
Allez had a similar problem last week, (he's 8) kept just laying down, very reluctant to get up. My vet checked him over, then pressed along his spine - big squeal at lumbar area so we reckoned he's pulled a muscle or twisted a vertebrae. Metacam every day for a week and he was back to normal.
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Thanks
I think the problem with the first vet is that as Laddie didnt say anything when they touched him anywhere or squeezed him anywhere (I told them he wouldnt even if probly cut his leg off) they focused on me saying he had been throwing up recently, I said he was a farm dog and ate rabbits and often threw up as he swallows all the hair and bones and then throws these up later.
They said he has stomach ache and this is causing his hunched apearence and inability to stand up etc
I should never have mentioned he was throwing up, this was un related to his problems but as they couldnt find anything else they just accepted it was his stomach, gave me pills, took my money and said goodbye, the metacam and antiflam and antibiotics was just injections that lasted 24hrs
Silly people, he is a farm dog, I cant stop him from eating rabbits, they said I cant let him outside on his own and he cant eat rabbits or anything anymore... this wasnt the problem I was coming to them for ???
So I dont think I would have a case, as I was the one to mention he was throwing up and they said his stomach looked like it has a mass inside it on the xray (was probly a freshly swallowed live baby bunny)
Maybe Laddie also has pulled something!!! unfortunately he wont let anyone know as he doesnt say anything for pain when he is being examined!!
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Hurry up and work Metacam
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Collies are notoriously stoic. My old boy Horace was persistently lame one day, when I looked he had a substantial screw (screw, not nail) sticking out of his pad. I gave it a gentle pull, it was solid, so I decided to take him to the vet. Horace being Horace, he stood stolidly while the vet unscrewed a 3" screw with a 90degree bend in the middle of it out of his pad. As it came finally free, Horace uttered, "Mrmph." It was the only sound he made throughout. The vet was amazed.
But yes, it does make them harder to diagnose ::). Bless 'em :hugdog:
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Sally yes he is exactly like that!
he can be butted by my ram or jump a fence thats too tall and fall or anything and he would never say a word, he will be just looking for the next rabbit
Cant imagine having a screw screwed out!!!!
Is it best to leave laddie lying on his side or should I keep standing him up to get the blood flowing like we would a downer cow? he is on a sheepskin so its soft for him
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I think it's not so much of a problem with non-ruminants to let them lie on their side if that makes them more comfy.
Sounds like you're going to have to help him get up to wee and so on.
Poor old Laddie, I do hope he feels better soon. :hug:
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It sounds like something very similar to what's going on with my collie Skye, who is 13.
He is struggling to get up from sitting, sitting oddly, falling, no strength in his back legs etc.
My vets have said that they think the issue is arthritis in his back (over his hips, but not actually in his hip joints, in his vertebrae).
What they've told me to do is 1. Walk him up gentle slopes, to increase his back leg strength 2. We've got him on the top dose of the generic Rimadyl.
He isn't 'right' but he's certainly a lot better than he was.
I'm sorry you had such a bad, and expensive, experience with the first vet! I hope Laddie is helped by the painkillers.
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Woopsie...I must forget that not all of us are ruminants.....
Will just get laddie up for weewees then and leave him in peace the rest of the time
He does sound similar to your collie Skye!! although I was not expecting old age or arthritis to hit so suddenly and only at the age of 9 :(
He is still wagging his tail :)
http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Duckberry/media/20140501_180040_zps6ae60cb9.mp4.html (http://s22.photobucket.com/user/Duckberry/media/20140501_180040_zps6ae60cb9.mp4.html)
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He's eating and drinking normally then? And weeing and pooing normally?
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He is eating and drinking normally,
I have him on chicken and rice as he isnt a big eater at all, food is not his forte and he says he is often too busy or prefers it live and kicking
He last wee'd at around 3pm, I took him out now and he didnt want to make anything, he last poo'd yesterday
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The vet you saw today sounds more sensible. The other things that helped my beardie were using a harness, I had one in the cupboard, a wheat bag thing warmed up in the microwave and placed across has back,placed a lightweight fleece blanket across his back at night, our house isn't very warm.
Hope tomorrow sees a big improvement for Laddie.
AnnS
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I don't have much advice - just hoping Laddie gets right soon :fc: :fc:
If its vestibular when they have a "do" their eyes move side to side very quickly apparently.
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:hug: to Laddie - hope he feels better very quickly. Sounds like this vet is better than the 1st at least. :fc: for you.
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:fc: hope laddie is feeling back to normal soon. It does sound more spinal or muscular pain in the back for both hind legs to be affected. If he is reluctant to get up then every 2-3hours turn him onto his other side to release pressure on the side he has been lying on for a while. Other than that and going out to the loo justn
Et him rest. Take his food and water to him so he isn't trying to get up for a couple of days.
Hope he is bouncing around in no time :hug:
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Get a new vet, so many of them are useless and over priced!
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:fc: that Laddie recovers quickly. :hug: for him meantime.
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Unless there is some reason why not, I have a nearly full large bottle of metacam I can send you. It was for Freddie who was pts in January and it supposedly lasts a year so it is in date pm me your address if you would like it. Being a large bottle it was about £60 so I didn't send it. It's been kept in my scullery within the temperature range.
Metacam did wonders for Freddie, who was 19 when pts, but stopped working towards the end. He then moved onto tablets but my vet told me it was quite usual to chop and change between treatments.
Hope so much he gets better. 9 is very young and I know what it's like to have a once in a lifetime dog *wibbles for Freddie and Laddie*
xxx
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Hi. Poor you and poor dog. Just a quick comment to say please don't rule out what your first vet said about it being stomach ache of some sort. One of our collies had similar difficulty in moving about, really I think, because she was in severe pain. She had peritonitis, possibly caused by eating something sharp that damaged her gut. I wish Laddie well.
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Thankyou everyone for all of your messages
Laddie after having several doses of Metacam now is running around and enjoying himself :)
So according to the vet he has had either muscular or arthritic pain in his hips or spine
Kitchen Cottage that would be very very nice of you! I will PM you
Thankyou all :)
xxx
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I'm so pleased that he seems to be his old self again :thumbsup:
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Brilliant news. I always keep a bottle of metacam in the cupboard. Even out of date it works!
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:relief: Great news :)
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Good to hear :thumbsup:
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Excellent news :thumbsup:
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Such good news! :-)
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Stand him up, take one of his back paws and turn it over so the knuckle is on the floor. If he doesn't turn it back automatically it is vestibular - similar to vertigo in humans and can be treated with the same drugs. If it isn't that, he may have pulled muscles and metacam will help so continue with that. Change your vet.
I'd just like to correct this. A placing reflex like this primarily tests the simple reflex arc and integrating proprioception in the spine. It is not a test of vestibular balance. You'ld need to get involved with righting reflexes and hopping tests and cranial nerve functions for that.
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Well done Laddie - hope you continue to recover fully. :thumbsup: :hug:
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Stand him up, take one of his back paws and turn it over so the knuckle is on the floor. If he doesn't turn it back automatically it is vestibular - similar to vertigo in humans and can be treated with the same drugs. If it isn't that, he may have pulled muscles and metacam will help so continue with that. Change your vet.
I'd just like to correct this. A placing reflex like this primarily tests the simple reflex arc and integrating proprioception in the spine. It is not a test of vestibular balance. You'ld need to get involved with righting reflexes and hopping tests and cranial nerve functions for that.
My vet advised me it was almost always the initial test done to ascertain if there had been a vestibular incident. It was what he did on my GWP bitch.
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A classic idiopathic vestibular incident in a dog is an older patient presenting with a head tilt, horizontal nystagmus and inability to stand (in severe cases and in rabbit it will be rolling) and a loss of appetitie.
The nystagmus is the first to recover - several days.. but may be triggered by rapid sideways movement of the head.
Placing reflexes and paper tests (stand the dogs back leg on a bit of paper and slowly pull it away) are the sorst of tests run on spinal injury and CRDM german shepherd's.
Either you misunderstood or your vet was having a blonde moment.... :eyelashes:
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Reading this with interest, vet did same test with one of my dogs after vestibular incident. Sure he mentioned reflexes.
Glad Laddie is making a good recovery.
AnnS
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The links below are from 'irrefutable' sources as opposed to some of the poorer quality links you might find..may be a bit heavy going for some.
It's good practice to run a decent neuro exam on any such patient..with a wobbly patient you do need to see whether there's problems with spinal integration.
Memorise everything below to confound your vet..
http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/nervous_system/nervous_system_introduction/physical_and_neurologic_examinations.html (http://www.merckmanuals.com/vet/nervous_system/nervous_system_introduction/physical_and_neurologic_examinations.html)
http://vestibular.org/sites/default/files/page_files/Vestibular%20disease%20in%20dogs%20and%20cats.pdf (http://vestibular.org/sites/default/files/page_files/Vestibular%20disease%20in%20dogs%20and%20cats.pdf)
http://inpractice.bmj.com/content/29/3/151.full.pdf+html (http://inpractice.bmj.com/content/29/3/151.full.pdf+html)
http://en.wikivet.net/Neurological_Examination_-_Dog_&_Cat (http://en.wikivet.net/Neurological_Examination_-_Dog_&_Cat)