The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: ChickenLiver George on April 21, 2014, 10:10:41 pm
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Can someone point me to a thread on layers pellets please?
We're struggling to feed quality feed at an affordable cost. The last sacks picked up from our merchant were the last straw - GM soya plus yolk colour enhancer.
If there's no thread on this I would welcome recommendations. I want to feed our girls as natural a diet as possible.
Thanks
Simon
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Daft question if you want to feed natural then why bother with layers why not feed naturally once set up it's easy enough, I feed a mix of layers and other 70%-30% for my hybrids and 25% - 75% for my rare breeds
I use wheat, sprouted wheat, mussels, sugarbeet, dandelion tops (I use the root for coffee), spinach and some greens, sprouted wheat being the largest component.
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Hi Simon. We, like you, read the ingredients on the label and wondered what on earth we were eating. Settled on Smallholder layers pellets but 'Garvo' and 'Dobson and Horrell' do similar. No GM and no 'yolk enhancers' -the permitted chemical colourants to give yellow yolks if anyone doesn't know.
There is always the question of the effect these chemicals have on hatching eggs to consider?
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I don't use layers any more just a mix of wheat, cracked corn and barley 2:1:1. They have been on this a year now and doing great. Castle farm recipe. Also mic in cod liver oil and garlic in winter, and sometimes dried nettle.
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There are more chickens killed each year by feeding layers pellets than are killed by foxes.
Feed straights and green feed.
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Presumably this is if they have a good amount of free ranging too? Otherwise where are they getting their protein from? I use Marriages Organic which is expensive (hence unable to break even on eggs sales) and I think does contain some natural yolk enhancer but no GM.
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Yes mine do totally free range... ( and that does include moping up on sheep nuts if they can geta look in...... So I can't claim mine eat nothing but straights..... :innocent: )
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We feed A+P Smallholders but often wonder about it. I wouldn't use the dreadful cheap stuff which is usually medicated to the hilt. Our birds are in poultry nets on fresh grass and they do eat a lot of grass if it's there. I just worry about them missing something important without layers. Is this not the case?
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There are more chickens killed each year by feeding layers pellets than are killed by foxes.
In what way??
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I feed the (expensive) organic feed but charge £1.75 for a box of eggs and no-one minds as they are so good! I am organically certified and put all the relevant info on the label. If anyone ever says anything, I point out the cost of organic eggs in the supermarket!
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I just use our feed merchant's own brand, the eggs are good and the hens look well. The only exception being when I worm them I use mirrages with flubenvet. All our stock feed (calf nuts/rearer mix, lamb creep and chicken feed) comes from this feed merchants and never had any issues. I won't pay stupid money for a bag of pellets it's just not cost effective and definitely don't use organic.
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There are more chickens killed each year by feeding layers pellets than are killed by foxes.
In what way??
The amount of calcium in layers is usually around 4%. That's about right for large fowl in full lay, but given to bantams and birds that are not using that amount of Calcium, any excess is taken up by the liver and kidneys and will cause problems and will kill them.
Besides which what 'additives' or feed quality goes into pellets and mash. Once it takes the shape of a pellet heaven knows what has been put in it.
I have fed my birds a grain diet for many years and I think they all look very well on it. They lay, hatch and fatten without any processed feed. I like to know when I eat an egg or chicken what the bird has been eating.
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I use Duffields Layers pellets for all my birds and have done for years. That includes my bantams (one of which will be 4 this year) but they are very good layers (when not broody). I have never had a problem.
I have tried different feed but found that I had problems with health and egg shells. I always came back to Duffields.
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There are more chickens killed each year by feeding layers pellets than are killed by foxes.
In what way??
The amount of calcium in layers is usually around 4%. That's about right for large fowl in full lay, but given to bantams and birds that are not using that amount of Calcium, any excess is taken up by the liver and kidneys and will cause problems and will kill them.
Besides which what 'additives' or feed quality goes into pellets and mash. Once it takes the shape of a pellet heaven knows what has been put in it.
I have fed my birds a grain diet for many years and I think they all look very well on it. They lay, hatch and fatten without any processed feed. I like to know when I eat an egg or chicken what the bird has been eating.
I would love to go on an all natural diet and have looked into it somewhat but have always been put off because the cost of getting enough protein into the diet usually makes it more expensive than I'd like (by feeding them grains and greens I'm not worried about them not getting any other nutrients or minerals, just the protein). So, if you feed them wheat, cracked corn, barley and some greens, where do they get their required protein from? Or is the 16 or 17% recommended for layers not a real necessity?
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That's where the free ranging comes in - they find their own protein as the were designed to do :D :D They are ferocious little diggers. if they were cooped you would have to do something additional ( though there is protein in grains).... Interesting to know how much
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I do not have the space for regular free ranging unfortunately. If memory serves me correctly, wheat has about 12% protein. The only realistic, cheap way I could make up the extra required protein is to breed mealworms - which means more work.
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delayed response sorry
Wheat 13%
Sprouted wheat 16-20% dependant on how long sprouting is
So its the sprouting that gets the protein back upto pellet level
Quick message as its bedtime :wave:
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Where did you get that figure for sprouted wheat protein, if that is true that would be awesome. But I think it goes the other way. When you sprout anything, generally the protein content goes down but other nutrients and minerals become more easily available. According to nutrition data sprouted wheat only has 8g of protein per 108g (so basically 8%). http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5750/2 (http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/cereal-grains-and-pasta/5750/2)
The cheapest options I know of of increasing protein (besides mealworm farming) is split peas (yes chickens can eat a reasonable amount of them raw without any issues) and flax/linseed. But even with them, the overall price of feed becomes considerably more expensive than pellets.
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That's what that link says try
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprouting? then No.3 Data
www.quickanddirtytips.com/health-fitness/trends-fads/sprouted-grains (http://www.quickanddirtytips.com/health-fitness/trends-fads/sprouted-grains)?
I guess we will never know, my chooks do well
Legbars close on 200 p.a
Marans 250 +
young Hybrids 400 these only receive a small amount of sprouts
Rare breeds have very orange yokes they have open freely ranging
Hybrid's have high yellow hint of orange yokes they are tempreture regulated in house along with shelter run then a netted range (controlled conditions throughout)
rare breeds get approx. 1 square meter per day per 20 hens this time of year so 4 seed trays
You can feed sprouts to horses, goats, penned sheep, cattle
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So I've been googling around and it does seem to be a difference of opinion with some saying there is more protein and saying there is less in sprouted wheat.
In your experience Andy, is sprouted wheat the main source of protein you are giving them? How much free range space do your chickens get? I'm just trying to work out if it's worth giving sprouts a shot as a major, if not the main source of protein (I could top up with split peas I guess, but I would need a lot less if the sprouted wheat really does provide the protein).
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My rare breeds have 75% mixed between sprouted wheat and hard wheat, and 25% of their feed is layers, if laying slows I increase the pellets for a day or two, they have an acre to play in
My young hybrids get 30% wheat sprout 70% layers their greens are trough fed.
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In this region they feed wheat and sunflower seeds approx ratio 3:1, plus whatever they grub up. The sunflower seeds boosts the protein to the required level for laying apparently. Well my neighbour's are laying well and they are in a small run. A huge amount of sunflowers are grown locally and all of them go for animal feeds.
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I only give GM free pellets, 2 litres a day (small buckets) shared by 25 birds, then they get wheat ad lib and free range. Spillers are still GM free. Pellets ad lib can give them kidney issues as they are very high in protein. :chook: :&>
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I only give GM free pellets, 2 litres a day (small buckets) shared by 25 birds, then they get wheat ad lib and free range. Spillers are still GM free. Pellets ad lib can give them kidney issues as they are very high in protein. :chook: :&>
Please do educate us to what is meant by "very high in protein"
Please do educate us to the direction you receive your information regarding kidney issues related to layers pellets.
"Spillers are still GM free" Please do educate us to where this information comes from (in order that I can pass this information onto the head of marketing) as in no way do Spiller uk intend to cause assumption that all their feeds are GM free, Spillers uk do try to offer a range of GM free products across the supply line in order to meet individual requirements.
Your wheat is it spelt or not, milled or unmilled, rolled or not IS IT GM FREE ? do you have a certificate ? what are the benefits of GM free above contaminated wheat ?
What is the protein level of your wheat at feed time ?
What is the protein level of the "very high level layers pellets"
What is the optimum protein requirement of your hens?
What are the implications of increased protein levels ?
I KNOW THE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS
1. I am asking so that you can either educate other forum users or a debate will occur
2. To establish whether your research is relevant
3. To establish whether your post is fact or opinion
Sorry if you take offence at my response.
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Apologies for stating that Spillers are GM free (my mistake, they used to be), this is no longer the case.
Their protein content is 17 % as it says on the label.
I have no intention to educate anyone with research, I understood the question as being asked for member's experience on this forum like it used to be the case on here. My personal experience was that my birds became egg bound when I allowed them pellets ad lib. Others explained the kidney issues on a thread discussing pellets - if I look hard enough I might find the post but I don't think that will satisfy you, AndynJ. You are obviously very knowledgeable but I don't know you and you don't know me so I'd appreciate a less aggressive tone. As you wisely apologise after you shout at me in capitals, do care to answer the questions instead yourself for all of us, if you don't mind. Always glad to learn something new.
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I've always been slightly bemused by the anti layers pellet brigade- we started with mash but it blew all over the place was terribly wasteful. we use compound feed simply for convenience, of use and storage. we're so busy all the time its just easy. surprised that companies who spend time and considerable resources on producing poultry feed would get it so hopelessly wrong !! not aware of it killing our hens- if anything the life they have here means they live far too long leaving us with the unpleasant task of having to cull our girls to avoid a coop full of hens and no eggs. i'm sure there is rationale behind the reasons not to feed layers pellets but in my own experience it simply does not pose a concern
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My concern with layers, is not chicken health ( as you say they do fine on them) it's a mixture of not trusting the corps who make them (especially after watching Hughs fish fight) and wanting to know what goes into my food. I do believe they will put any damn thing they can get away with into them :( regardless of environmental impact or exploration of people in far away places. Happy with chicken solution.... Next pigs and sheep!
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I'm with Devonlad. It seems ridiculous to suggest pellets suppliers will intentionally produce something that harms chickens - it's really not in their best interests commercially even if we ignore the ethics. Yes, you have to be careful to use the right pellet at the right time but you're not going to damage adult chickens by feeding them pellets.
I used to work for one of the biggest food suppliers in the world (to humans) and you hear a lot of the same propaganda about the food they produce - they'll fill it full of crap because they can get away with it. Utter rubbish - they produce the best they can for the price they pay because their profit relies on people buying the products again and you wouldn't do that if it tasted bad or made you feel ill.
Now most chicken food is not made by big corporations - in the general scheme of things they're all pretty small companies because it's a very specialised business. So it's even more important they produce something you're going to buy again. If you spend decent money, you'll get a decent product. If you spend peanuts, you'll probably get peanuts.
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1. What are the benefits of GM free above contaminated wheat ?
2. What is the protein level of your wheat at feed time ?
3. What is the protein level of the "very high level layers pellets"
4. What is the optimum protein requirement of your hens?
5. What are the implications of increased protein levels ?
1.very long answer but in short it makes people feel they are getting a cleaner product, there is no substantial proof that a modified wheat is harmful to hens
2. protein levels in wheat vary from 7% - 12% ish dependant on type & production, sprouted wheat has a protein level of between 7 & 17% ish
3. 17%
4. laying hens 17%
5. too much protein as with humans is disposed of through urine, breathe & the liver excess protein isn't harmful in it's self however it could be harmful in that other minerals & vitamins maybe missing within the feed and also that some minerals & vitamins may get flushed out along with the excess protein
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Apologies for stating that Spillers are GM free (my mistake, they used to be), this is no longer the case.
Their protein content is 17 % as it says on the label.
I don't know you and you don't know me so I'd appreciate a less aggressive tone. As you wisely apologise after you shout at me in capitals.
A quote from another member :roflanim:
Whenever I am tempted to think I have scribed something so perfectly there is no way anyone could misinterpret it, I remind myself of this 7-word sentence and its 6 different meanings.
I never said he stole the money.
Now read it again, six times. Each time, stress a different word.
I never said he stole the money.
I never said he stole the money.
I never said he stole the money.
I never said he stole the money.
I never said he stole the money.
I never said he stole the money.
Northfifeduckling I didn't shout :bouquet:
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http://www.2ndchance.info/goutpollocAvianrenaldis.pdf (http://www.2ndchance.info/goutpollocAvianrenaldis.pdf)
I quote from page 108
"Nutritional cuases of renal diesease - Excess dietary protein or calcium or hypovitaminosis A or hypervitaminosis D may lead to nephritis and other degenerative renal changes."
You may be diappointed to learn that other members can read and discuss topics which may be of value to each other. So, a conclusion for ordinary folks- an excess in pellets" can lead to kidney problems, if you read my post closely you see that I was mentioning amounts.
And you may not know on-line etiquette but I KNOW THE ANSWERS TO THESE QUESTIONS is shouting.
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Abuse usually sees the end to a thread
Lets hope it does on this occasion too.
THE END
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In respect to Northfifeduckling AndynJ's post did seem pretty agressive, disrespectful and dismissive in tone to me as an uninvolved bystander.
I'm sure it wasn't meant to be but it does read that way. Use of Capital letters are well known to be considered shouting in emails or online.
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1. What are the benefits of GM free above contaminated wheat ?
2. What is the protein level of your wheat at feed time ?
3. What is the protein level of the "very high level layers pellets"
4. What is the optimum protein requirement of your hens?
5. What are the implications of increased protein levels ?
1.very long answer but in short it makes people feel they are getting a cleaner product, there is no substantial proof that a modified wheat is harmful to hens
2. protein levels in wheat vary from 7% - 12% ish dependant on type & production, sprouted wheat has a protein level of between 7 & 17% ish
3. 17%
4. laying hens 17%
5. too much protein as with humans is disposed of through urine, breathe & the liver excess protein isn't harmful in it's self however it could be harmful in that other minerals & vitamins maybe missing within the feed and also that some minerals & vitamins may get flushed out along with the excess protein
Hi AndynJ
Not wanting to get into any arguments but is there actually any GM wheats out there being commercially grown? I know there is plenty of GM maize and most soya is GM but is there any GM wheat? As far as I know there are no GM barley varieties.
Also very interested in the idea of sprouting grain. What makes you think it has any improved nutritional value over the unsprouted grain? Back in the 1970's great claims were made by people selling hydroponic systems such as the Acre Maker, which were just sprouting grain. These have been pretty much debunked now.
The only way I can see it increasing the protein is the fact the carbohydrate is being burnt off fuelling growth but the protein isn't. If you start with a kilo at 14% protein you have 140g protein dry matter, spout it and your kilo becomes 750 or 500g dry matter but it still contains most of the original140g of protein so the % protein has gone up even if the actual amount of protein is still the same.
You would be giving your animals 140g protein whether they were fed it sprouted or unsprouted, or am I missing something?