The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Smallholding => Land Management => Topic started by: HesterF on April 08, 2014, 11:44:55 pm
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We're shortly planting two acres of vines. I was hoping to get muck spread but it's proved impossible (most of the farmers now hire in huge muck spreaders once a year and these are either not interested in doing our two acres or the costs of them picking up the much from an awkward access yard and getting to us - also awkward - makes it prohibitive). So now I'm thinking of putting down some general purpose fertiliser (Growmore type) and kieserite (magnesium sulphate - we're low on magnesium) by hand. Questions:
- We were going to muck spread before ploughing but now I'm thinking it best to put down the fertiliser after ploughing but before harrowing so it stays high in the soil. Does this make sense?
- Where do I buy that sort of quantity of fertiliser from? It's more than the local garden centre will stock - or be cost effective for - and less than the typical farmer needs. As ever, caught in the middle!
Any other thoughts?
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We are in a similar position. We have seven small paddocks spread over five or so acres. I really want to get more proactive with the grass management and the best way I can think of is to borrow the neighbour's quad bike and buy or borrow a spinner-spreader thing and use solid/powder fertiliser etc.
It'll take a fair bit of logistical planning as we still need to rotate the stock through all of that.....
Much as I would rather have good old fashioned muck, it's not practical really.
Will be interested to hear other people's suggestions/solutions
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You can get 25kg bags of fertliser from your local farmers merchant for roughly £10-20 depending on composition - you cam either spread by hand or use a garden push spreader type item if you fancy lots of walking
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And do you how what sort of application rate it would be per acre?
I really must do something about my land. It needs lime too. I have a ground driven pellet spreader, that I can pull behind my quadbike, if I could also find a source of oelleted lime.......
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- We were going to muck spread before ploughing but now I'm thinking it best to put down the fertiliser after ploughing but before harrowing so it stays high in the soil. Does this make sense?
- Where do I buy that sort of quantity of fertiliser from? It's more than the local garden centre will stock - or be cost effective for - and less than the typical farmer needs. As ever, caught in the middle!
Any other thoughts?
Fertiliser application post-ploughing will be of very little benefit. Anything applied to the soils leeches down anyway, with the root structure of the crop drawing the nutrients back up into the plant.
If it's absolutely impossible to get FYM onto your land, then any farmer's supply will have or should be able to obtain, a granular fertiliser suitable for spreading via quad or tractor mounted spreader.
If you haven't already got a copy, I recommend you download The Fertiliser Manual https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69469/rb209-fertiliser-manual-110412.pdf (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/69469/rb209-fertiliser-manual-110412.pdf) which will provide you with a wide range of information on requirements which will benefit your venture.
Page 135 on covers vine crop requirements.
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And do you how what sort of application rate it would be per acre?
That very much depends on analysis of what nutrients are present, and what are missing. In addition to what the land is used for - grazing pasture for cattle, sheep, horses, etc or, crops.
I really must do something about my land. It needs lime too. I have a ground driven pellet spreader, that I can pull behind my quadbike, if I could also find a source of oelleted lime.......
Have you tried a farmers supply? You should be able to get granulated lime without too much difficulty. Off the top of my head, I think it costs around £120.00 per 700kg.
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I have some bags to send off for a forage analysis. Hopefully that will give me a steer as to what needs to go on and when.
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We have some application recommendations from the soil analysis we had done so at least we're prepared on that one (actually soil pretty good - the manure was more to try and get the soil structure perfect although it's currently grass - now sprayed - so that will introduce plenty of veg matter once ploughed in).
Fertiliser application post-ploughing will be of very little benefit. Anything applied to the soils leeches down anyway, with the root structure of the crop drawing the nutrients back up into the plant
But that was my logic - the harrowing will turn it over into the soil so it can leech down to root level won't it? Just like you (well me) surface dress stuff around the base of established plants in the hope it works its way down eventually.
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To keep it simple, fertilising followed by ploughing ensures nutrients are mixed into a homogeneous soil layer 20-25 cm deep, or whatever the ploughing depth is.
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But the vines are going down 50cm plus - we're subsoiling too because their roots go deep - I can't get fertiliser to that level whenever or however I spread it. I guess the only advantage of ploughing is that it takes it a bit closer to the roots than harrowing (which will take it maybe 10cm down?)?
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My neighbouring real farmer explained his economics on muck spreading; that if he hired the tack then apart from the hire cost it was going to get it and the time spent cleaning it afterwards... so he hires a contractor to do the job instead. Kindly he got the guy to pop down and spread my 1/4 acre patch too. Dramatic sized kit - took one pass and about a whole minute to splatter rottted cow muck over my plot!
So one option is to get friendly with a local farmer and do some sort of combo deal next time he's got someone in.
My other thought is that 2 acres of vines is beyond a bit of a hobby and there's going to be serious investment in rigging up your wires etc and as you're aware you need decent working space between rows. It might well be worth thinking about a digger/driver rental and trenching the rows rather than ploughing the whole 2 acres. That'd really get you down deep and allow for getting any soil improvers where you really want them.
I only planted half a dozen dessert vines (which actually aren't doing that well after 2 years) and it was enough work setting up for double guyots for those.
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Yep, well beyond a hobby - thanks husband (his baby but he got lost in the detail after ordering the vines). The rest is sorted though and time is not on my side. The vines arrive May 9th, then the French planting team arrives May 11th. The vines will be planted by machine, guided by GPS. This team arrives in the UK at Dover and works their way across East to West so we'll be there first port of call. It'll take about two hours to plant two thousand vines making it cheaper, and more accurate, than hand planting.
Trouble is that's a looming deadline and before that the land needs ploughing, subsoiling and harrowing. I've got somebody to do that but he doesn't have a muck spreader. I've talked to all our local farmers - our next door neighbours contract muck spread with their twenty tonne spreader - but it's just not going to happen at this time of year unless I pay a fortune.
Trellising will happen later in the year - also paying somebody to do that. Based on my attempts to erect wires for the raspberries, it's an investment worth making. The main manual part will be laying over 2km of weed matting (after the vines are in) and adding canes, ties and rabbit netting to each vine. Oh, my summer will be a long, happy one!
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With the time constraints involved, I think you'll be pushing it a bit!
Bear in mind that with the incorporation of farm yard manure, its important that it should be well rotted otherwise you're going to run the risk of burning the vines roots.
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Personally I wouldn't plough it in. If you look at the work done by permaculturists the best method is top dressing after planting and letting the earth worms pull it down into the soil. This way the effects last longer as if it is just rotted muck it won't have formed humus and will burn up pretty quickly in the soil. Clay is needed to turn muck or compost into humus which is what you really want for soil improvement as it is a more stable compound. The advantage with top dressing is that you can direct it exactly where you need it so it isn't being wasted in the access paths between the vines. I would also recommend planting some dynamic accumulator plants around the vines. You might find the book "Weeds guardians of the soil" which you can access free from the online Soil and Health library an interesting read.
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Yep, pushing it was why I've abandoned manure for now & was thinking of fertiliser instead. I did wonder about waiting until the vines are in and putting a sprinkling of bone meal and fertiliser on the surface underneath the weed matting. We top dressed all the trees around the wind break (just planted) with rotted manure and compost but that was a hell of a job by hand and no way can we manage that for three times as many vines (not to mention we exhausted our manure supply and have no easy means of getting the next batch down). The rows will be interplanted with clover between the weed matting - happy bees, lots of honey and some nitrogen fixing to boot. We'll foliage spray for magnesium but I though it might help if I spread some of that too. I'll ask around to find out where I can buy kieserite in small(ish) quantities.
H
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As well as clover you might want to think about some deep rooted species as these help the vines to get their own roots deeper. If you wanted to stick with nitrogen fixers you could use Lucerne as their roots can go very deep into the soil.
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Best of luck with all that!
I'd just like to put my name down for a free bottle of kentoplonk 2018.......
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Hmmm - I'd give us a few more years experimenting before its drinkable! First grapes will be 2018 or so. Sparkling whites is the target with still whites, roses and maybe even sparkling roses in a good season. Hic!
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Oh, and I've never heard of Lucerne (except in a Swiss context). I'll google later but how high is the top? We need to be able to get the tractor up and down the rows which is why clover appeals.
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Lucerne is also known as Alfalfa
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Aha! Now that I have heard of - and it would have the bonus of feeding the lizards too (always good to have a win-win). I'll look into it - thanks!
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The other good deep rooted one that I forgot to mention is chicory. It's great fodder and if you let it flower the bees love it.
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Hmmm - I'd give us a few more years experimenting before its drinkable! First grapes will be 2018 or so. Sparkling whites is the target with still whites, roses and maybe even sparkling roses in a good season. Hic!
I figured 2018...drinkable? I'm happy if it has alcohol... ;D ..
You obviously like a challenge with secondary fermentation...
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Sorry not really a reply for the OP, but good luck with the vines!
You can buy granulated lime from your local agri merchant too, in 25kg sacks. We only have a little field, so we apply it by hand. Lots of helpers is useful! You don't even need special equipment, we use calf buckets, so they are light enough for the children to carry. We have a system, one person to every second fence post, then work across the field. You can then do the same at right angles to make sure you get good coverage.
Trouble is I'm spreading manure just now, no equipment to do it, and there aren't as many volunteers to spread manure with your marigolds on... I wonder why? ???
Beth
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Lime is about the only thing we don't need to apply - I could probably ship you a tonne or two (we live at the foot of the North Downs (North being a relative term given that this is Southern Kent) - chalk hills :)). But I did reckon I could walk up and down spreading something pelleted. I do like the idea of waiting until the vines are planted and then I can focus on spreading in the relevant area (and can't yet predict where the rows are going to be that exactly - head hurts too much). I'm thinking we might need some casual labour in to help lay the weed matting and add the canes and guards so maybe they can help spread stuff too.
I'm with your support on the manure - more because it's a pain to spread compared with little pellets. Good luck doing it on your own!
You obviously like a challenge with secondary fermentation...
My entire alcohol creation history to date consists of explosive elderflower champagne, explosive ginger beer and a few bottles (yet to be opened) of gooseberry, elderflower and blackberry wine. What more experience does one need to start a vineyard? At the moment I've not even started panicking about that - first get the vines in, second keep them alive (especially with rampant rabbits around), third train them (apparently we're going for Scott Henry trellis which involves some really complex pruning techniques) and once I've sussed all of that, then I can move on to how to actually make wine. Meantime if I've coped with numbers one to three and can't go on, some of the big vineyards around here will buy in grapes and turn them into something far superior to anything I'll be able to manage. My biggest problem is that I'm not really a big wine lover and have the palate of a worm - I do seem to have had a lot of interest in the role of wine taster though!