The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Cattle => Topic started by: trish.farm on March 31, 2014, 11:33:51 pm
-
Any experienced calvers still up and not in the land of nod???? Just took dogs out for last pee, and to check sheep and cows, jersey heifer not due for 2 weeks, fully bagged up, vulva huge and red, and just seen a 12" long mucus string hanging out of her!!!! EEEEEEKKK! please tell me she still has a few days to go!!
-
Mucus in the weeks before calving is quite normal and not necessarily an indication of imminent calving.
The three early signs I find most useful with my girls are, in order of usefulness:
- Slackening of pelvic ligaments
- 'Springing'
- Restlessness
To be tuned into the slackening of her pelvic ligaments, I start feeling the gap between the spine and the pin bones (either side of the tail head) around about two weeks before she's due. The gap will get much larger - large enough for your whole fist - when she's within 48 hours of calving (or less!). You can also, at that time, feel that the ligament at the front of that gap has completely slackened; it's very very firm now, at two weeks to go, but in the 12-48 hours before calving it's like it's completely disappeared and there's only skin there.
'Springing' is when the udder gets really full and turgid. The teats will look full and will be pointing outwards - think of blowing up a rubber glove to nearly bursting point! :D
Restlessness, when the pelvic ligaments have slackened and the udder is springing, is generally a sign that labour will be starting within a couple of hours. Hillie sweats up too, but this is less noticeable with Plenty.
Finally, the tail will be held out from the body and the back will be arched. That's when I get the straw bale to sit on and settle down ;)
Once you've had one calving you will be much more comfortable with your cow's signs and timings. But the first time, if your girl is like mine, you'll have several nights when you think she seems slackened and springing, but nothing will happen. Once she's produced, you'll know what she feels like when she's fully slackened, and what her udder looks like when it's springing - so it's less nerve-wracking the second time and you'll have less nights when you got up to check in the small hours, only to find her contentedly cudding, or filling her face with nice hay ::)
-
Sally, regarding adding on a calf, I have got a heifer bull calf at the ready, local jersey herd calve all year round and said to ring them and they would have something for me if needed. Now all I need to know is what to look out for regarding milk supply and how to spot if she is overproducing!! Sorry, total novice here!! Also, I have got Daisy in my home paddock right outside my house so i can spy on her from my bedroom window. If I have to get an adoptee in, how do you go about adopting them on? I am intending to calve outside as weather is lovely here in hampshire and she is settled with her 3 friends in the paddock. Would I need to get her in a stable to put new calf on? She is halter trained but i have no idea how easy she will be to move about with a new calf at foot. So sorry for all the questions!!! Teats are now vertical and filling so I am nervously watching her!!
-
It's a tricky one, trish. It's easiest to get the second calf on if you do it straight away; the longer she's had just her own calf the more she's reinforced the bond and the 'count to one' ;). With Hillie's first calf I added the second the very next day; with Plenty the timing was less lucky and it was a week or so before I got another calf for her. It took her a lot longer to settle to having the two.
To get the calf on, you will probably have to tie her up with some cake at first. (Seems counterintuitive to be caking when you are worried about excess milk! but it's just for a while, and you can use a 16% mix, bulked up with mollichaff or alfalfa or something to create a longer eating experience ;)) Bring her own calf round to the suckling position so she can see and smell it - if it will suckle, so much the better of course - then latch the foster on behind. It's best to teach the foster to come from behind to the rear teats, then it will soon learn to slip in and sneak a drink when she's suckling her own calf, and she'll notice less.
I've always had my girls inside for calving, in a large well-strawed pen, and I just bring the foster calf into the pen with mum and her own calf and keep them all together. Then twice a day, mum to where she can be tied and caked, get the foster on for a suck. Take a litre of milk in the morning to be able to offer the foster a midday drink without tying mum up again - you may find you don't need this and it's pinching enough, or is managing well enough on two feeds.
It does need to be a large pen to do it this way, because mum will probably chase the foster calf away quite a bit at first. It needs to be able to skip out of her way and not get rammed against a wall or pen side ;). Telling mum off when she does this does have an effect with mine, they pretty quickly stop being physically aggressive and settle for shaking their heads at it ;).
Usually within a week I have spied the foster suckling away while she's feeding her own calf while they're all loose in the pen. Once that's happened twice I will let them all go out for the day as a family. As long as foster calf stays with her, and is clearly getting fed, you can then keep them outside and dispense with the tied-up feed.
I dehorn my Jerseys - not sure I'd leave a new foster calf alone in a pen with a new mother if she still had her horns :thinking:
So all of which said, I'm not sure how to answer your question about how to tell if she needs another calf to use up all the milk. The first three or four days the bag will be humungous and very taut anyway, and her own calf drinking very little yet, so if you haven't a foster on you will probably need to handmilk a bit off to ease the tension. But don't take litres and litres the first few days; firstly the more you take the more you stimulate production, which is not what you want in your situation, and also she may be prone to milk fever in the early days so you don't want to overload her.
Just an aside - as this is a heifer, I would definitely be training her to be handmilked this first time. She may need to be handmilked in future lactations, so it's best to get her used to that right away. ;)
So I guess if you want to see if she can manage with only her own calf before getting a foster... :thinking: Well, I think I would teach her a routine where she gets tied up and gets a bit of cake twice a day anyway, and handmilk a little off each time. If after say five or six days you are finding she still has a big taut udder when you come to handmilk your little bit off, then it would indicate to me that she is overproducing. Now you can get a foster calf in, she is already used to fiddling about going on down there while she is tied up and eating cake, so the addition of the foster behind will be less of a shock. In introducing the foster after a week you may have more difficulty getting her to allow it to suckle while they're all loose, so you may need to keep the calf in for the first week, feeding it twice a day on the cow and a midday bottle or bucket feed if it needs it. By that time it should smell of her and she should be more accepting of it being around so you could try them all loose together.
-
Sally you are a star!! Fantastic instructions put in understandable english!! Thank you so much! Will follow your instructions to the letter. I dont have a barn big enough to house her and a calve, largest pen is 12' x 14', but i do have a 12' x 12' shelter with a large coral attached which is next to the paddock all 4 girls are in at the moment. Had aimed to move her in there prior or after calving. I have a good tie up area there to feed and milk her from. All my jerseys are de-horned. Will start the hand milking a small amount everyday to get her used to handmilking. Love my jerseys to bits, but now wish they were less prolific milk producers!! Obviously will be easier in the long run to spend a week or so working with an add-on calf rather than having to milk her twice a day all summer! Sorry for all the questions, there will be more!!! x
-
we are waiting for a calf just now. bagged up and muscles have slackened - don't think she will be tooo long.
-
OMG, lambing is so easy compared to the waiting for your first calf!!! 4 days to go till AI date of birth. Daisy is bagged up, teats are engorged, can fit a fist between her tail and pin bones. She has taken herself off to the delivery suite (large shelter with small paddock) adjacent to the field with her 3 girlfriends, so have shut the gate and kept them separate now. Delilah made a right fuss about being separated from her best mate but has settled down now. Only problem is that Daisy has decided the shelter is far nicer to lie in on a comfy straw bed than a grass paddock and spends all day in there where i cant see her, before i could just look out of the window!! Spend all day rushing back to the house from all corners of the farm, or out from the house, just to check she is ok!! calf pen ready to put up in her shelter for adoptee calf to be brought in. Now its just playing the waiting game!! :fc:
-
:fc: too, ;D
-
our heifer calf was born on sunday, 48 hrs after a mucus plug came away. the cows body changed shape over the last 2 weeks and she had a good udder of milk though soft to touch.
we were outside all day and only went inside for an hour and came out to find the calf about 10 mins old.
our first heifer.
-
Congratulations shygirl! Pictures are of course obligatory... :eyelashes:
And :fc: you get your calf soon, trish.farm. Looking forward to hearing all about it - and seeing pics :)
-
congratulations on your baby heifer!!! Pictures please!! Did you calve indoors or out?? Dont think i can stand much more of a wait, she has had a mucus string coming out for a week now! Udder fit to burst! ???
-
she calved outside it was mild though a bit breezy but the calf made a fine bed in the hay and snuggled up to her mum. mum is very happy.
the rest of the herd were in the field next door and they all got very excited and came over to see the new calf, they aren't daft. it was lovely to watch, even the bull was calling to her. :love:
I cant work out how to get photos off my new phone so photos may take a while. she was scanned for a march calf so not too far off.
its the first time we have had a heifer so I guess we will have to sell her as we have a bull here. we have called her Charisma.
-
Now have a thick white almost transparent mucus coming out of her, very different to the string of mucus we have had for the last 10 days. Very restless today. Shes not the only one restless!!!
-
:excited: :excited: :excited: :fc:
Will keep checking for news!
-
suspense........
good luck :fc:
-
Have now given up all hope of ever having a calf!! Never been so stressed in my life!! My 16 year old son who owns Daisy asked me this morning if i was this excited/nervous when i was expecting him? Ummm, no!! Checked her a minute ago and went into panic mode as her fat tummy seems to have disapeared! Ran into her shelter thinking she must have calved and i would find a dead calf there, no calf! I am assuming the calf has moved up into position to be born and therefore less of a lump in her tummy! I think i will stick to lambing, so much less stressful! ???
-
thats a sign when the belly seems to have gone, as the calf moved into the birth canal rather than lying hammock style. same with humans. I remember our first lambing with a huge wensleydale - I was looking in the field as her belly had shrunk and I thought she had lambed and a fox had took her it - but she was a day or so away from giving birth to twins.
-
Still no calf!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
Sorry, I'm smiling and that's mean. Yes, this is what it's like! She'll get there, in her own good time :)
-
My other half just had a right go at me. "Leave the bloody cow alone and she will have her sodding calf, I wish you were as attentive towards me and your son"!!!! Eeeeek, that told me!!! :innocent: :P
-
:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
-
Tearing my hair out now, still no calf, poor Daisy can hardly walk with her udder so large! Noticed this morning she is leaking a bit from her teats, they are massive too. Honestly think her udder is going to burst soon, it is solid. Reckon i will be getting 3 add ons for her not 1!! She is really struggling to lie down, gets down on her knees at stays like that for ages before flopping down on her huge udder!! Am i panicing about nothing????
-
That sounds about right! Sounds like she won't be too long now. :fc:
-
I am feeling Daisy's pain ;D For babies, it's hot bath, hot curry, hot sex - not sure what you'd try to induce a calf :innocent:
-
thank you for your reassurance ladies! Getting so worried that something is going wrong!! The day before i had my son who is now 16 I spent the morning tractor driving and the afternoon digging and burning ragwort. waters broke out in a field and I turned up in hospital with ragwort green stained hands and stinking of bonfires and tractor diesel! Desperate for her to calve just to see her looking more comfortable. Should I offer her some chicken madras?? :innocent:
-
are you sure she is pregnant and not just fat?? :-J :-J ;) ;)
come on girl :excited:
-
I spent the morning tractor driving and the afternoon digging and burning ragwort. waters broke out in a field and I turned up in hospital with ragwort green stained hands and stinking of bonfires and tractor diesel!
OFF post here, but you you do know that ragwort is toxic and absorbed through the skin and can affect the liver . and the cow will calve when she's ready .
-
Yeh thanks shep53, sadly know about all the dangers of ragwort, been spot spraying, pulling, digging, burning ragwort all my life and still dont wear gloves!! Must admit, the vodka probly does more damage to my liver than the ragwort!! :innocent:
Have walked away from Daisy and told her she has to calve tonight, left her putting her head in the haylage and throwing it around, hoping this might be a nesting/pre calving thing!!! Ha Ha!!!!!!
-
Come on Daisy!!!
-
Thank you for the clear details Sallyintnorth :-). Been reading them carefully as my heifer is due soon. Hate it at the moment getting very nervous! Foaled lots of mares,'farrowed plenty of pigs and lambed sheep and never ever felt as wound up about any of them!! I dont know if its a step into the unknown or if its all the horror stories i hear at work (vets). Be very glad when its all over
-
what breed do you have raisinhall?
-
Flake is a Jersey. MIL has White Parks and they have always just got on with it but had Flakie since she was 4 weeks old and we have quite a bond! The White Parks have always just been around and I suppose I've been quite ignorant to how nuce cowsvactually are! Had another Jersey, Yoyo, who should have been due to calve with Flake but she died last year :-(. Probably makes Flake even more precious. Got another one for company for Flake after Yoyo died, Jennifer, hate to say it but its evil only reason shes not in a burger is I dont want to upset flake and have her on her own!! Will try to stop panicking and enjoy it and remember most of the horror stories have Belgian Blue in them!!
-
Jerseys have a very wide pelvis, she'll be fine ;)
What breed did you use?
-
RaisinHall, my Jersey who just calved for first time was AI'd with an Angus. She just needed a wee bit of a tug to get the head out. Beef farmer friend who helped me said the calf was a perfect size for her and wasnt stuck because of its size, she had just given up pushing a bit as it was her first time. He said next year, put to the same bull she will pop it out on her own!
-
Any first timer - of any species - may need a bit of help 'loosening up' to let the first head pass to the outside. ;)
If they're going to get stuck, it'll be shoulders / brisket or most often hips. And the obstruction is the pelvis, not the vaginal opening!
But Jerseys have a lovely wide pelvis, so unless it's an extreme double-muscled type calf, or very very overdue, or she's very very fat, all should be well :)
-
apparently Daisy was a joy to help! After my 3 phone calls within 5 minutes saying she's pushing, then the water has broken, then i can see feet, my friend put his cup of tea down and drove over rather quickly before i went into hyper state!! He has a 80 head suckler herd of shorthorns. After I had put a headcollar on Daisy and she stood politely to have her calf pulled out, he commented that he might just change his cattle breed!! Battling with a not so tame shorthorn, with a big calf very stuck, was somewhat different to Daisy's rather tranquil birth! He laughed and said there should have been classical music playing in the background!! :roflanim:
-
is there a limit to what breed you can put to am experienced jersey cow, seeing as they have the widest pelvis?
some of the bulls up here are humungous.
ie would something like a charollais be too much?
-
I suspect an experienced Jersey would manage to calve a Charollais calf, but don't forget you also have to think about her uterus and abdomen muscles. They'll wear out faster if she's producing larger calves. Also, I don't know whether the increased strain on her system might make her more likely to go down with milk fever?
I put Hillie to the British Blue for her third calf, and she had no problem. (British not Belgian - they've worked hard on reducing the problems of extreme muscling and long gestations / bad calvings in the British breed now; I don't know whether they've done the same in the Belgian breeding programme.)
My neighbour, a retired dairy farmer who had a top Jersey herd in her day, used the Murray Grey for a good beef cross calf. She said she didn't like the Charollais cross, but hasn't suggested it would be too large. Mind, she retired nearly 20 years ago now, and the bulls just keep getting bigger and more muscley and longer...
Let us know if you try it!
-
I know what you mean, trish.farm. Our sucklers are very quiet for sucklers, but the Jerseys are sweethearts in comparison. (Actually, they are sweethearts full stop. ;D :hugcow:)
BH is very impressed with my Jerseys :). Actually, he gets more uptight when they're calving than I do! He used to breed Charollais, then gave that up when he was getting too many difficult calvings. That experience has scarred him - he frets as soon as the head is out and wants to get on and pull the calf out. I prefer to let them do their thing naturally... ;) As long as they're making progress, I prefer to watch. I had to help Cherry only because BH was going to pop a blood vessel if I didn't! lol
-
I love my Jerseys to bits, Daisy in particular as she is SO affectionate. I dont think any breed of cow can compete with a Jersey.
another question for you Sally :innocent:
Delilah didnt take last summer after 3 tries at AI. She was spot on bulling and AI man said it was perfect timing each time. She and Daisy are 2 1/2 now, will try with AI again July time with Daisy and Delilah, some people have said she needs a bull but not possible here with fencing etc and i dont want to risk any infection etc.
If she doesnt take this year, do i try again next year or put her in the freezer. EEEEEEEEKKK!!!!
-
Firstly I am wondering why you are only trying in July? They cycle year round...
One of your local farmers must have a bull you could take Delilah to? Even walk her to?
I bought Hillie in calf (she'd been running with a bull) and failed to get her in calf again - like you, AI three times. :o I had fixed up with a neighbour that I could walk her over to the neighbour's Shorthorn bull if I needed to, then I realised :idea: that each time I had AI'd her, there had been some upset to her routine.
Dairy cows are sensitive souls, they love routine and they get upset if things change. The first time she had come a-bulling had coincided with my weaning her set-on calf (because I needed the milk for my pet lambs.) Then the second time, with weaning her own calf (because I needed more milk for the pet lambs!) Third time, with moving the 'milking parlour' as we were taking out the stalls where I had been milking her. Once I realised this, I decreed that I would not serve her again until I was certain I could go 6 weeks with NO CHANGES or upsets to her WHATSOEVER! It worked ;) :relief:
Touch wood, no problems since with her or any of the other Jerseys - but I do make sure that nothing upsets them around the service and for several weeks after. ;)
If none of that helps, you could get the vet to check that there's nothing wrong with Deliliah. Our vets reckon they can often help if a cow is proving difficult to get in calf - could be worth a try, rather than putting her in the freezer.
-
Thanks Sally, i try and AI in July to have an April calf, it fits in with my grazing programme. I can winter graze our HLS ground until end of march then bring them back to my home paddock for calving. HLS ground has no barns etc and is out of sight being the other side of our woods so I cant keep a close eye on her. Also it works in well at weaning time as they graze the meadows from August onwards, then come off the meadows around november when I can wean and the girls go back out on HLS ground. Struggling to find anyone local with a clean bull, quite a few herds around here have BVD. I could go down the route of vaccinating against BVD but dont really want to do that.
-
Ah, I understand - on both counts. Fingers crossed for this summer's AI then!