The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: sokel on March 30, 2014, 10:31:05 pm
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Can anyone confirm what the law is with docking ?
I thought but could be wrong that only working dogs going to working homes can be docked :-\
A friend is looking for a cocker after losing her old girl before Christmas. She wants a show type rather than a working type. She has seen loads of working type advertised as legally docked but selling to pet homes. She has phoned about a litter tonight that are advertised as show type no mention of them being docked but was told on the phone they are docked as mum does a bit of flushing :-\
She wants an undocked anyway
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Unfortunately the majority of working type breeds still are docked at birth with the reason given that the parent is a worker and the pups are docked at such a young age that the type of home cannot be determined, therefore they are all docked. Although some breeders refuse to leave tails even when deposits for pups are offered from pet homes :-\
I'm 99% certain it should be done by a vet and certs or confirmation given as to being a working strain but don't quote me as I work where planned breeding pets are not treated. We do ask for proof of docking but majority acquire pups from gumtree, the local pub etc. :'(
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The legal requirement is as follows:
It depends what country you live in, and what breed you want.
In Scotland and Northern Ireland docking is completely prohibited.
In England and Wales (for the moment) docking is allowed for working gundogs only
In those two countries if you want to dock puppies they must be done by a vet within 5 days of whelping (more usually it is within 2 days), and you must have proof that the parents (or at least one of them) are worked - shoot captain's letter, your own firearms licence, trial certificates etc. They must be identified by the vet, some microchip but many feel that is too young and will hold that off till they are 8 weeks provided there is some other method of ID - colouring, markings, sex etc) and you need a certificate of docking from that vet on their own practice headed paper..
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Thanks for the info. I did wonder how they could get a whole litter of show type docked and then sell into pet homes. I am sure they cant be shown at champ level docked ?
My friend has decided to keep looking for either an undocked health tested line of show type puppies or a young adult
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Thanks for the info. I did wonder how they could get a whole litter of show type docked and then sell into pet homes. I am sure they cant be shown at champ level docked ?
My friend has decided to keep looking for either an undocked health tested line of show type puppies or a young adult
Show information
Any dog may be shown in Scotland regardless of whether it is docked, full tailed or natural bob/short tailed
In England and Wales, if the general public have to pay to see the dogs (gate money) then docked dogs cannot be entered.
Crufts is one of those shows where docked dogs may not be shown - BUT they allow docked dogs in the Gamekeepers classes, AND on the Discover Dogs and Rescue stands! The Kennel Club have said they will NOT police teh law, but they give out mixed messages. Gate money at Crufts is an unusually large part of their income - BUT there are ways round the law. Entry payment could be for Agility, obedience etc and people could then have free access to see the breed rings - I don't know why the KC hasn't already thought of this!
Where entry to a show is free (almost all open and Limit shows, and most Championship shows) docked dogs may be shown.
Some championship Shows started off abiding by the law and denying docked dogs entry so they could charge gate money, but they discovered very quickly that owners with a large number of dogs didn't enter any of them if they had one that couldn't go because it was a youngster that was docked. So they were losing more money in dog entry fees. They also fell prone to pressure from exhibitors and many capitulated, giving up gate money in favour of entries, and the ancillary sales of dog related and other items that the standholders rely on for their trade.
The law is a total ass and so is DEFRA! There is no consistency, and total confusion!
The reason I was given by DEFRA when the docking ban first came into operation was that dogs that were docked would not be allowed to be shown so that Joe Blogs (the general apparently stupid public) would not see docked dogs and therefore wouldn't buy dogs with their tails cut off! ::)
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I really don't see the fuss about docking... Vets say it doesn't even hurt if done at two days old. I happen to shoot but even if I didn't i still wouldnt see the problem if it's not causing pain... The "it's not natural" argument is nonsense as dogs are man made anyway so what's natural about that? The focus should be on changing the kennel club rules to disallow extremes such as all the squashed faced dogs that can't breathe or the poor German shepherds who walk like cripples so on and so forth! That's real cruelty and it is totally sanctioned and apparently acceptable... These are issues that cause a lifetime of pain and discomfort potentially.. Compared to a little snip at under a week old. Im not championing the docking cause by any means and if you want a long tailed dog you should definitely be able to get one.... I'm just trying to highlight the massive overlooked issues that truly cause real and long term problems.... Not trying to change anyone's mind, just putting it out there!
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Vets say it doesn't even hurt if done at two days old.
One of my vet friends has his own practise. His partner won't dock at all, she hates it. My friend will dock, because he'd prefer that the pups were docked in a veterinary surgery than by someone unqualified in an unsterile environment. But he makes the owner stay and witness the docking. He says that quite a few owners stop docking after witnessing it once.
He has seen some badly damaged spaniel tails, where the feathers have caught on brambles and the dog has wrenched itself free. He has seen the same sort of damage to longhaired collies' tails too. Farmers usually clip longhaired collies for their comfort... :thinking:
The "it's not natural" argument is nonsense as dogs are man made anyway so what's natural about that?
I don't think that's ever been the argument.
The four main reasons to not dock, in my view, are
- Dogs with their tails docked too short can suffer problems with their anal glands due to the muscles around the anus not being exercised sufficiently
- Dogs use their tails expressively, so removing the tail deprives the dog of some ability to express itself (and I don't just mean happy wagging either - a stiffly erect tail has a meaning, a tail clamped between the legs has a meaning, a tail held low and wagging softly has a meaning - docked dogs are rendered dumb compared to their unmutilated peers. The same must be true of naturally bobbed dogs too, I guess.)
- Dogs use their tails for balance - anyone who's ever seen a full-tailed dog in full flight executing a handbrake turn cannot be in any doubt that the tail has a function beyond communication.
- It's a physical mutilation for the purposes of fashion and as such is unjustifiable.
(I don't think the fact that man has bred dogs to be as they are makes them 'man made' either, by the way.)
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The reason I was given by DEFRA when the docking ban first came into operation was that dogs that were docked would not be allowed to be shown so that Joe Blogs (the general apparently stupid public) would not see docked dogs and therefore wouldn't buy dogs with their tails cut off! ::)
Actually I think there was another reason.
The Kennel Club had blocked moves to introduce a docking ban for decades. It took many years to even get them to allow dogs with tails to be shown at all (in breeds which are docked.) It took many years to get them to write breed standards for the tails of dogs for breeds which had hitherto been docked, so breeders who didn't dock were at a disadvantage in a ring alongside docked docks. All the judges knew how to judge the docked dogs.
So by including the clause that docked dogs could not be shown, the Kennel Club was forced to accept tailed dogs in the ring and stop prevaricating on updating the breed standards. And those judges who preferred 'their' breed to be docked had no choice but to judge and award rosettes to tailed dogs.
This then led to breeders not docking so that the puppies would be suitable for showing.
And removed any pressure that could have otherwise been applied to the dog-buying Joe Public to buy a docked specimen. ;)
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As vet nurse I can say with out a doubt that docking hurts. The pups cry out. All that is done is a pair of sterile scissors chop through the tail and some powder to stop the bleeding is put on the end. The pups have to be kept away from mum for a short time or there is a risk she will eat them as they are injured.
You are removing part of an individuals spine, complete with nerves and major blood vessels. Just think of the long term pain from a partly crushed vertebrae and spinal chord some dogs must have, if the cut is not between the tiny vertebra, especially in short docked breeds like terriers where the vertebrae are bigger an close to the pelvis.
would you choose to have part of your spine removed with scissors?
Yes tail injuries happen, many working dogs have armpit injuries and wounds to their chests, some entire dogs have abrasions and wounds to their scrotum (v painfull!), and the owners don't insist on their dog being castrated....
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Its an interesting debate, and clearly people have different opinions that are unlikely to change. I know I have seen a litter of jack Russell's be docked a few years ago and there wasn't a peep out of them, they went straight back in with mother and were back on the teat straight away. I'm sure all vets have varying levels of skill etc.
If a pug or a bulldog isn't man made, what is it? These have been selectively bred to look like they do and as a hopefully unintended consequence they have a myriad of health issues.
As I say I'm not championing the cause I don't even have docked breeds... I don't even ring my welsh mountain sheep. I do have lots of friend with working dogs and i just don't see the problem with docking them... I would agree that a toy poodle doesn't need it's tail docked just to look "better" in some persons apartment.
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Its an interesting debate, and clearly people have different opinions that are unlikely to change. I know I have seen a litter of jack Russell's be docked a few years ago and there wasn't a peep out of them, they went straight back in with mother and were back on the teat straight away. I'm sure all vets have varying levels of skill etc.
If a pug or a bulldog isn't man made, what is it? These have been selectively bred to look like they do and as a hopefully unintended consequence they have a myriad of health issues.
As I say I'm not championing the cause I don't even have docked breeds... I don't even ring my welsh mountain sheep. I do have lots of friend with working dogs and i just don't see the problem with docking them... I would agree that a toy poodle doesn't need it's tail docked just to look "better" in some persons apartment.
Terriers are often banded like lambs - is it possible this is what you saw? I have had litters docked by a vet, and prior to it becoming law that only vets could do it, I had a litter that was banded. The cut pups squealed like pigs, the banded pups went straight back to feed, and the tails dropped off on 2 days. I would never want to go back to cut docking but would quite happily have them banded at 2 days old. I am just glad mine are natural short tails so if I decide to breed again I will have a selection of short and full length. I have found over the years that pet owners prefer long tails anyway, and although I only sell for pets if homes are lively outgoing active families, I can see that my bobtails would mostly go to working homes as they all have in the past.,
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It was surgical but the banding sounds like a good idea! I didn't know they did that, but of course why not!? We once had a bobtailed puppy who was a mix but looked like a longer nosed boxer... A chap asked us if he could put him to his boxer bitch and was thrilled that all the puppies were born bobtailed! We lost touch but the puppies were lovely!
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This is where the bobtail boxers originated from - http://www.steynmere.co.uk/BOBTAILS.html (http://www.steynmere.co.uk/BOBTAILS.html)
Bruce came to one of our Club weekends and gave us a lecture on the bobtail gene. He and his wife are both well known geneticists.
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How interesting! I am a bit of a genetics geek, just so fascinating!
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The bob boxers were certified by teh KC after three generations so I can't see why they can't use bobtail breeds to take the gene into other working gundog breeds (Spaniels and HPRs) to avoid docking.
I was offered £1500 for Allez at stud some years ago but they guy was going to register the pups as being by his own stud dog rather than try to do what Bruce Cattanach did so I refused.
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Cheeky sonso! I can see why you refused! And yes would be great to introduce the bobtail genes into all working lines, three generations really isn't that long and the demand and interest would be there for the foundation generations too!
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Wish I had never asked now ::)
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Wish I had never asked now ::)
Why not - it's a very good topic and well worth discussing. There are pros and cons for docking.
I used to do it with my Cockers, and Brittanys, I didn't like doing it so I'm happy I can produce bobtails, but if I was allowed to and had to do it to sell to working homes I would.
I know that a number of HPR breeds are split in Scotland because working people aren't keen on having dogs with tails.
We really need the whole country to be the same - whichever way it is.
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Just thought I'd add my opinion on docking.
I have springer spaniels. They have long docks so are able to balance and communicate normally. I have seen some horrific injuries to undocked spaniel tails because they thrash then when they are hunting. Once these tails are damaged they rarely heal as you cannot stop a spaniel from wagging. This often leads to the end of the tail having to be amputated and the wound takes ages to heal (again, because they won't stop wagging!). This type of injury seems to be on the increase in Scotland since the docking ban.
Just my thoughts.
I have attached a picture of one with a nice long dock (not a good picture but the only one in which his tail is not a blur from wagging!!)
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my natural short tailed Brittany pup (5 months) has a Springer dock length of tail
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Okay, all you folks with working spaniels with long tails ... please tell me whether it is normal to clip the long hair, to make it less likely to catch on brambles etc? And if not, why not?
As an outsider to these breeds it would seem obvious to me that you'd trim the feathering in such dogs that will be scampering about in undergrowth...
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I'll be trimming Missy's feathering, - for two reasons - work and showring. :fc:
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Okay, all you folks with working spaniels with long tails ... please tell me whether it is normal to clip the long hair, to make it less likely to catch on brambles etc? And if not, why not?
As an outsider to these breeds it would seem obvious to me that you'd trim the feathering in such dogs that will be scampering about in undergrowth...
Mine have long docks but we do trim them in the working season. It is not generally that they get caught up in brambles though, it is the high speed thrashing impact injuries which split the end of the tail.