The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: chonty on March 21, 2014, 02:57:11 pm
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Ive been castrating/ docking using an elastrator for years with commercials (family farm). However I now have a tiny (5ewes) flock of whitefaced woodland of my very own. And having done research it seems as long as the tup lambs are off mom by 4 months they grow quicker and are away quicker. I also do not want to castrate unnecessarily as there is a lot of info about the pain experienced, and im pretty sure advice from defra is to only castrate/ dock if essential. I know it could be argued that it is essential fir welfare issues. The newzealanders seem to manage. Could we?
Oh and tails are left long in woodies so that decisions easy.
Just looking for a discussion really on peoples thoughts. I am 90% sure I am not going to. I might aswell make a mistake with a tiny flock right? ;)
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One of our local farmers does not castrate his meat lambs as he says they are ready to go to the butcher faster and he gets a better price. he finished lambing 2wks ago and expects his to be all sold by end of June/July.
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We don't, but then we don't get many go store so its not a big issue
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I will watch this post fir others answers.
I am debating what to do with my meat lambs, I always do tails. I hate doing balls as it clearly hurts and last year I missed one and he went early. The thing that puts me off is if we have another disease out break like foot and mouth I'm then stuck with ram lambs which would have to be split from ewes and ewe lambs. Chances of this?? Who knows??
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We castrate everything apart from those that look like they might make a tup we'd want to sell/use with elastrators once they are up/sucking etc. happily - usually this is the day after birth. This works for us as most of our lambs go as stores, only a small % go fat.
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We have Coloured Ryelands; we lamb 30th March to about 16th April. We don't castrate the tup lambs. They go for slaughter mid October.
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I have gone back to castrating, it means they can wean naturally, any that don't make the grade for selling as fats can stay with the main flock for as long I need it. (I prefer to have one big flock overwinter in my big field, makes feeding etc easier in snow etc.)
Only breeding Shetlands and Gotland ewes to Shetland tup this year, so all will stay until after 1st shear then go and I will try and get the skins done. Castrates also have better fleeces, if that's important to you.
Really depends on what the lambs are for and if only for meat and commercial breeds, then it makes sense to leave intact and get away as fast as possible. But it would be wise to have a separate field available for them in case disaster strikes...
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Nice sheep :thumbsup:
At what age do woodies finish for slaughter? Do you have a separate paddock you could keep entire males in?
When we first started we were told that wethers finished quicker and better than entire males, but we have found the opposite is true, and in spite of Hebs going off at 16 months, we have never had meat tainted by ramminess. We run a mainly breeding flock ie selling for breeding, so we leave nearly all the Heb tup lambs entire. When we had Jacobs we castrated all the males, as they were destined for meat for our own freezer - this was because we didn't know enough at that time to compete with the top breeders. For the same reason, plus a little bit that I like fleece wethers :spin:, now we also have all Shetland male lambs as castrates. With the Soays, we would pick out one likely lad to keep as a possible tup for sale, but the rest were castrated ( if we could get the ring on the tiny creatures' bits).
Because you are keeping a rare breed, and because you clearly already know about sheep, it would be well worth keeping them intact until they are finished, which allows you to pick out any possible potential breeders before the rest go for eating. To maintain genetic diversity in any breed or species with small numbers, it makes sense to have breeding tups in the national flock from as wide a genetic base as possible, so producing an occasional tup from your flock is good practice. When you keep a rare breed you have a degree of obligation to think about the breed as a whole, as well as your individual flock.
I particularly hate finding dropped off tails and mini purses lying around, as we did when we kept Jacobs. Now all our breeds are Northern Short tails so don't get docked. We keep a careful eye out in flystrike season, and we also use Crovect, which has been successful in keeping the maggots at bay.
If you have a separate paddock where you could put the entire males once they're weaned at 4 months, you would have no rush to send them off before they are finished, and somewhere to keep any you are keeping back in case they turn out to be potential flock sires.
So I would say "go for it, and leave your tup lambs ringless" - if it's not a success this year, then change your plan next year.
Some photos would be great - we like photos on TAS ;D
Ive been castrating/ docking using an elastrator for years with commercials (family farm). However I now have a tiny (5ewes) flock of whitefaced woodland of my very own. And having done research it seems as long as the tup lambs are off mom by 4 months they grow quicker and are away quicker. I also do not want to castrate unnecessarily as there is a lot of info about the pain experienced, and im pretty sure advice from defra is to only castrate/ dock if essential. I know it could be argued that it is essential fir welfare issues. The newzealanders seem to manage. Could we?
Oh and tails are left long in woodies so that decisions easy.
Just looking for a discussion really on peoples thoughts. I am 90% sure I am not going to. I might aswell make a mistake with a tiny flock right? ;)
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Some really interesting stuff there. So I think woodies, being one of the larger hill breeds are pretty similar ti the commercials with regards growth So i would hope i could finish them before the autumn hormone changes occur. Would need more concentrate to finish though which might take away from the quality of meat. My intention having so few is to kill the rams for my freezer.
Potential tups? Would i really be able to offer something of breeding standard already? Who knows. Was chatting to my aunt though who would be interested in keeping one as a teaser to share. So potentially thats one down.
I have a tup of my own actually (i know possibly not the wisest decision considering the amount of ewes but quite frankly he is my absolute favourite, and yes i know never make a tup friendly. Do as i say not as i do. I will reap what i have sown!) so I already have a male/ female divide so have got somewhere to put them.
Hmmmm f&m outbreak (touches wood). That is a good thought but I just cant plan for something that may never happen.
Im off out to feed so ill try for some pics.
Thanks all, i always enjoy hearing other peoples opinions
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there was a discussion a while ago about castration. I think it was said Germany doesn't routine castrate but are much more set up for separating males and females.
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Entire rams grow quicker than castrates
But ---if you have a slower growing breed they may become a problem later in the season unless you can keep rams and girls well apart
I keep 500+ entire ram lambs and finish them all off grass every year, some going at almost a year old with no problems but I am set up to deal with this
If in doubt castrate ---it will make for easier management
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I have a welsh mountain tup/wether/teaser(not sure what he'd be called) I was given as a bottle lamb last May.
He was about 2 weeks when I got him, when I mentioned to the farmer that the ringed sac seemed empty He told me that he's 'crimped', like they do in NZ, they finish quicker with less fat. This farmer does all his that way. It proved useful knowing when the ewes were coming in season.
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Its very simple to castrate the lambs when they're older if they're not finishing quick enough and your worried about them serving ewes. That way you keep your options open. If you've never done it your vet would be able to do & teach you for another year. There's now a lot of evidence that ringing causes pain for about 6 weeks until the purse has come away & the wound healed. Open castration with a knife causes shortlived pain while the procedure is carried out & the wound takes about 7-10days to heal. The UK have looked at banning ringing on welfare grounds on several occasions to bring us in line with parts of Europe.
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Farmvet that is very interesting. Its all the literature ive been reading which had made me question my practice. But open castration? Sounds a bit scary. And i'm used to seeing 'gore' in my job! But it is certainly something to keep in mind. Thankyou.
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open castration may be less painful but it also leaves the wound open to infection ---especially in the summer or in a mild autumn when flies can be a problem
Another thing to weigh up---
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I had no idea you were allowed top open castrate yourself. I'll be asking my vet about this - I still have my dissection kit from college, all I need is new sharps...
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So all you boys out there would be happy to do open castration? Im squirming at the thought!
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We have the vet to castrate the odd bullock when for some reason we haven't burdizzoed or ringed. It's so quick, and the knife is so sharp, you never ever see any sign that the bullock has noticed.
I'm not sure about doing it myself to lambs though - the scalpel bit would be ok, it's the making sure you have all the cords and don't get a bleed :o. I may ask the vet about it though.
Yes we'd be worried about flies on the wound too - on cattle you might use Swish or something to keep the flies away, I guess you could do something similar with the tup lambs.
And I really really don't want to ask this (picture ostrich with head in sand)... but I have to. What and where is the evidence on the downside of ringing? I have always based my understanding on my own experience of having a haemmerhoid banded - gosh I didn't like it, and felt very sorry for myself for maybe 24 hours, but after that, no problem. And after doing many hundreds of lambs, I am very comfortable now with my technique and find that generally the lambs either don't react much at all, or walk a bit stiff-legged for a few minutes, or very occasionally thrash about and cry for up to 10 minutes. When I first started doing it, I got a lot more of the thrashing about type, to the extent that I would make sure I had the lambs and ewe somewhere safe where the lamb wouldn't be endangered if it couldn't get up and run with mum for 10-20 minutes. (And no, I wasn't snagging the testicles - but I think when you are new to it, you probably faffle on more and maybe cause more bruising; when you are very practised it's nearly always very swift and sure.)
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There are no nerve endings in the internal wall of the gut, sal - the discomfort you will have felt would have been due to the procedure. There are plenty around the testes though and I guess that having them ringed would be prolonging the pain, wheras the damage is mostly internal when you use a scalpel, and like you say, quick, sharp cuts seem not to hurt too much.
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Well blimey sally now that is sharing! And yep relatively few nerve endings in gut wall so not quite the same. Evidence? Well ive not read any papers just defra advice really. I do know it may be on the cards to ban ringing or only use if local anaesthetic has been used. But that doesnt really scan because the local would only be effective for a few hours then what?
Perhaps farmvet could be able to elaborate on this one?
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I found this thread fascinating . The ram lamb, Welsh Mountain, which my neighbour farmer gave me last Monday as a day old, which had been abondoned / got separated from Mum, is definately going to be kept as a pet ,to join my Three coloured Ryeland ewes. After advice on this forum about getting him ringed quickly I took him to the vet in Rhuthun on Thursday. She said that she could feel both testicles were in the sack but then spent ages trying to position everything to put the ring on. In the end she said that she could not feel confident to place the ring on because his testicles were in danger of sliping back into the body or being only partially ringed. Since I was going to keep him as a pet, and wanted to be sure I didn't end up with a Rig, she has suggested that I take him back in a couple of weeks. They will give him a local anesthetic, make a small incision to remove the testies ( no need to stitch she said because the skin will self close) and then give him a shot of antbiotics. This is obviously a much more expensive way to castrate but that is not an issue since he now has the status of a cat or a dog in my emotions. Has anyone else ever heard of /had experience of lambs being castrated this way ?
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I saw a video on YouTube a few years back of two US cowboys (term used in the pejorative sense rather than defining their career choice) castrating lambs by slitting the bottom of the scrotum then peeling back and biting off the testes. Not convinced of the ethical status of this - however they seemed to be saying that this was a traditional method...
Barbaric in my mind...
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Shady oaks farm/[email protected]. can any one e-mail me a copy.
thanks,
jack
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We castrate, it saves the issue of having to put the ram lambs away from the ewe lambs from Aug onwards. They go to slaughter Aug-Nov. We bought a few store lambs last year and 1 was a ram, it caused no end of trouble as he wasn't ready to slaughter until November, so all rams are banded.
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Very interesting thread.
Anyone here using the burdizzo method you could share their experience with that?
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I think burdizzo's are quite fiddly to use. You need to crush both cords individually twice. The crushes on the cords need to be off set from each other so the scrotum still has a blood supply & just the testes die off. You can test the burdizzos - they should cut through a piece of straw inside a folded sheet of paper without cutting the paper. Most recommend 30-60 seconds crush per site. You do need 2 people as you can't hold the lamb & operate the burdizzos very easily. Legally you can castrate your own lambs up to 3 months old, above that they should be done by a vet.
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We leave ours entire and keep separate to ewes and ewe lambs from weaning, however last year our neighbour castrated a few lambs for us going for stores. The lambs seem to tolerate this quite well considering what is being done, and didn't seem too stressed afterwards, and it obviously has the benefit of no open wound. However our neighbour is very experienced at using the burdizzo and I think you would need to be confident in their use.
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I found this thread fascinating . The ram lamb, Welsh Mountain, which my neighbour farmer gave me last Monday as a day old, which had been abondoned / got separated from Mum, is definately going to be kept as a pet ,to join my Three coloured Ryeland ewes. After advice on this forum about getting him ringed quickly I took him to the vet in Rhuthun on Thursday. She said that she could feel both testicles were in the sack but then spent ages trying to position everything to put the ring on. In the end she said that she could not feel confident to place the ring on because his testicles were in danger of sliping back into the body or being only partially ringed. Since I was going to keep him as a pet, and wanted to be sure I didn't end up with a Rig, she has suggested that I take him back in a couple of weeks. They will give him a local anesthetic, make a small incision to remove the testies ( no need to stitch she said because the skin will self close) and then give him a shot of antbiotics. This is obviously a much more expensive way to castrate but that is not an issue since he now has the status of a cat or a dog in my emotions. Has anyone else ever heard of /had experience of lambs being castrated this way ?
It will be fine that way, but I am disappointed the vet couldn't manage to put a ring on! If you position the lamb correctly, you can hold the band open in position with the elastrators with one hand, the gently squeeze the testicles up into the scrotum with the other hand, then release the band. I would have thought someone at the vets should have been able to do it, althopugh I suppose much more sensible to say she didn't feel confident than bash on and make a mess of it.
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the hill farmers round here dont seem to dock, i suppose its to do with the fact that they grazw very differently and this would possibly make them cleaner worm wise and also theyre grazing would be less lush. we are docking here, barry does that and does a great job too, starting to see some very neat looking docked tails. we do it as it lessens the likelyhood of strike, we too use crovect, its the best at its job, nowt compares imho
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the hill farmers round here dont seem to dock
Some hill breeds aren't docked because the mothers living out all year need the woolly tail to protect the rear parts and udder from the cold. :o It is said that a Swaledale ewe can live for a week on the fat stored in her tail - and sometimes she needs to be able to do that if the snow comes and a blow, burying sheep until it thaws.
Most farmers hereabouts give the girls a 'tupping trim' - making sure access is clear for the tup :-J. Lower down they clip the whole tail about 7-10 days before turning the tups out, on the higher ground they just trim the top 6 inches of the tail, leaving her looking like a poodle with a woolly pompom!
Northern shortails of course don't need to be docked, they naturally have just enough to cover their modesty :eyelashes:, and usually have wool over the udder to keep it warm through any kind of winter. Commercial farmers prefer a clean udder - easier for the lamb to find its way - so then the long woolly tail is required in the breeds living in tougher conditions.
I think you're probably right about these breeds on the hill also staying cleaner behind - but there's a significant genetic component in propensity to flystrike, so I guess over many generations these have also self-selected for resistance to strike.
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I no longer castrate my ram lambs. I seperate them off at 4 months old and they go in with the ram until I sell them on in Sept and October. All of my Hampshire Down x ram lambs went to breeding homes last year :)
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I am unsure what to do with mine this year, I have plenty of paddocks/space to separate ram lambs at or before weaning time so thats not a problem for me.
I will be having every crossbreed under the sun this year (due to a ram mix up) and I am tempted to just castrate the ones coming out like shetlands and leave the others entire.....
or just leave them all entire and just stick any small ones out to overwinter on the ryegrass leys... :thinking:
I am really impressed with the rapid growth of my Charmoise ram lambs so far, either its a breed thing or that they are rams or a bit of both... :thinking: either way they are growing better then my charollais cross lambs that I castrated last year...
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Well Im definitely leaving them whole this year but i wont have many. With regards shetlands, and ive got absolutely no experience with the smaller more primitive breeds, what age do they weigh well for slaughter? If it takes longer perhaps leaving them intact might cause you problems? But as you say you have got plenty of space and as long as you have a larger group any aggressiveness might be shared amongst the group? Dont know.
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I bought some shetland shearling ewes off a farm who had the ram lambs away each year by 12 months, weighing 40ish kilo
But I knew a farm who had a smaller less "commercial" type who had them away at 14-18 months.
I have two types of shetland ewes, short and wide or tall and lanky, I havnt had pure shetland lambs before, only crossed them, these crosses can be finished at 6 months on grass alone, 40ish kilo
Im guessing if I have any pure shetland rams, they may take 12-14 months to finish pure as I have lots of overwintering ryegrass from a dairy farm.
However the shetland ram covered all my big ewes and the commercial ram covered my first timers (well I think so anyway) but would have to wait and see who pops out what!
Commercial ram is a Hampshire down cross Charollais and really shouldnt have gone onto first time shetlands who are rather short (but wide)
I find the rams dont get aggressive as they dont have any competition? as I dont feed them at all and just look at them really, dont handle them much either
I have a shetland ram whom I havnt touched since october 13 and I caught him last week and was walking him around on a halter (for the first time ever) he is a big boy and has a lovely wide back
So I dont know about aggressiveness!!
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No docking or castration here.. Mostly because I can't really see a need as we just about have enough fields to separate. A couple of their tails did get mucky, which made it harder to dag.... But that's my problem not theirs...... I hate seeing sheep with impaired tails!Just sending the last of last years off this week.... Taste fine ;D ;D I do regret not doing my pet ram lamb last year, as I would have kept him.... But he is off this week.
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Yes I agree Sally there's that too, keeping bits covered lol x
I don't know about the predisposition of strike though, I feel that's all about keeping bums dagged , mag buckets in, good worming practice and the use of crovect x
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I had 2 lambs struck last year[size=78%], both clean and both high up on tail so docking wouldn't have helped.... Will crovect back ends earlier this year[/size]
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Ram lambs? They can tend to dampen each others back ends when they practice they're tupping moves ... I think this maybe a reason to turn lambs into wethers to be honest x
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Ram lambs? They can tend to dampen each others back ends when they practice they're tupping moves ... I think this maybe a reason to turn lambs into wethers to be honest x
. Very delicately put!! That could be true (they were almost all ram lambs)