The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: P6te on February 25, 2014, 07:22:39 pm
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Next Tuesday we have our vet booked to come and castrate the 3 boars that Lucky had. On Tuesday they will be 20 days old. I am planning on taking them well away from the ark and run out of earshot of Lucky!
My question is how do you recommend removing them from the run without alarm bells ringing and all hell being let loose??
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When we ear tattoo our pedigree GOS we block the piglets in the sty and tempt Mama up the ramp into the livestock trailer with a cunningly laid trail of apples. We keep her busy with a scoop of feed thrown into the straw. We give her half rations for the preceding feed, to make sure she's hungry.
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Thank you for the suggestion ... unfortunately its not an option to remove Lucky. In a previous post I mentioned that she had a just got over mastitis and the way out of the run is through thick sludgy mud and I don't want her dragging herself through it so for that reason as much as any other I need her to stay in the run and I'll remove the 3 boars .... that's the problem!
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Why are you castrating the boars? I try if possible to obtain boars to rear for meat as there is no temptation to keep them past 6 months.
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Hi Daisys Mum,
There are three reasons why we are getting them castrated.
Firstly we wish to keep one as a castrate to be a companion pig. We want a pig that can go with our boar or sows so they can always have company.
Secondly, it will be easier to keep all the gilts and boars together without risk of the gilts getting in pig to their brother! (It will not cost any more for the vet to do 3 than just one anyway).
Finally I for one do not trust them not to be sexually active at 6 months .... and we normally keep them to more like 7 months anyway.
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Ah! Well good luck hope it all goes ok. Had a look at the pictures they look great.
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Pete I always find the simple way is best. Feed everyone and walk in and pick up a piglet and walk out. My sows will raise an eye at worst a grunt its all about trust.
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Thanks BB .... on some occasions we have picked them up and not a squeak, another time (on Sunday) when one got under the fence I picked it up to put it back in the run and you'd have thought I was torturing it!! I quickly put it back in the run but Lucky was not happy!! (Mind you, she was still resembling a pin cushion and only just starting to trust me again!)
No one has suggested this so far but I was wondering about a stout box with a well fitting lid (with ventilation of course) with straw in and swiftly put a piglet in and then remove it from the area. Would it squeal when placed in a darkend box?
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Pete I always find the simple way is best. Feed everyone and walk in and pick up a piglet and walk out. My sows will raise an eye at worst a grunt its all about trust.
id run ;D ;D mine would scream blue murder and the sow would charge :roflanim: mind you a cattle bale-ring comes in handy for protection :roflanim:
is you sow laidback Pete?
can you catch them by the back leg (then scoop em up) then lift them over the fence to someone else to carry off?
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We put plenty food down for mammy pig and lift the piglets (using the back legs - both together if possible) out of the way. I think they squeal less getting picked up this way than round their bodies.....but it sometimes takes a wee bit of practice to get it right.
20 days is quite a fair age for castration - although the vet legally isn't required to use anesthetic I'd be asking him to give them something to relieve the pain, poor wee buggers ;)
Good luck - hope it all goes well :thumbsup:
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Hi Shygirl,
Thank you for your reply. Firstly, yes Lucky is very easy going, the best natured pig we could wish for. However, a piglet squealing would (as I have seen) set her alarm bells ringing. I do want to have all 3 castrated, if it were just one I might get away with it but by the time number 2 and 3 raised the alarm I think she would have rumbled me.
At the moment I'm thinking of a trial run on Saturday to see how they react .... but a box to carry them in feels a reasonable option?
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Thanks Karen .... I'm aware that 20 days is on the limit, the vet said between 10 and 21 days is their 'ideal age range'
I'm ok picking up by their back legs, just looking for quickest / quietest way of getting them out! :innocent:
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We did our 'big' pigs castrations ourselves on day 3 - used to lead them into an Asda crate in the shed and take them 100 yards away (into our house) to do the deed - the more gates and doors between us and the sow the better for anything to do with the piglets......just in case they squealed and alerted mum ;)
A lid would be a good idea though, because yours will be bigger and more inclined to jump out (though not on the way back ;)) A dog crate would work too, if you have one ?
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we used to send off the boys at 6mths then the girls a month or so later. entire boars grow faster than the gilts, so are ready sooner. i presume castrates will grow slower still. but i expect you know that.
can you tie a sheep hurdle over the entrance to the sows sty to keep her in for a few minutes??
im sure a sturdy box would be fine. an adapted tesco box maybe?
iv never castrated a pig - are they like ponies and have to be kept mud-free?
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Because ours were so young they were always still in the farrowing pens in the shed, so they were always dry and in clean surroundings :thinking: Most of ours were completely healed after 2-3 days though - maybe a fender on the front of the arc just to keep them in? I'm not sure whether they'll need to be kept mud free - our summer Kunekunes go straight back into the fields - but they get a closed castration............. Sorry I can't be of more help :-\
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Thanks Karen and Shygirl .... been thinking whilst reading your posts. What about one of the LARGE heavy duty supermarket carrier bags - with straw in? .... I could pop one in held by its hind legs and then it could be quickly carried away?? I'm thinking of having a box (with lid) and carrier bag to hand and depending on where the piglet is in relation to Lucky, the ark and my escape route I'll decide then ..... ?
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Because ours were so young they were always still in the farrowing pens in the shed, so they were always dry and in clean surroundings :thinking: Most of ours were completely healed after 2-3 days though - maybe a fender on the front of the arc just to keep them in? I'm not sure whether they'll need to be kept mud free - our summer Kunekunes go straight back into the fields - but they get a closed castration............. Sorry I can't be of more help :-\
At the moment the majority of the run is dry mud, its only the entrance that is bad and they don't tend to go that way. Initially I scattered a couple of bales of hay around the ark to keep them clean so may extend that again. I don't think keeping them in is an option, they are ACTIVE and it would take a lot to do that!!
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plan the escape route first, avoiding the dubs as that'l slow you down :roflanim:
keep everyone hungry, that always helps.
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Firstly food & do you have a area you could just lead the piglets into & separate them there? Also I thought after a certain number of days pigs have to be castrated under a GA - like with cats & dogs which would mean taking them to the vets? I've seen it done on the farm & in a vets & personally don't like it as they seem to get so stressed as opposed to other animals & the squealing is almost unbearable. I can understand why it's done though but I just wouldn't keep mixed gender groups together.
Also they need a lot of good handling & holding down - when seeing 1 being done under a GA it took about 4 people to hold it still to gas it down before the op (Granted that was a 8-12 week old pig.) Pig castrations also similar to dog castration where the testicles & scrotum are quite vascular as opposed to some animals - which means post-op their more likely to bleed & possibly swell or the scrotum's fill with blood - so keep a eye on that. Sorry not trying to scare you off the idea & good luck x
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I really think you are making this more complicated than needs be. Grab piglet get out quick. You start trying to get it in a box or bag it will get stressed and make even more noise. Mine shut up once you have them cradled in your arms like a baby.
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Thank you all .... I'll give BB's suggestion a go. Certainly is easiest if all goes smoothly. :thumbsup:
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Don't blame me if she has your leg off. :roflanim: :roflanim:
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Pete - I know she's a lovely sow but TAKE A BOARD AND STICK IN WITH YOU - you're better to have it and not need it than the other way round :thumbsup:
Also I thought after a certain number of days pigs have to be castrated under a GA - like with cats & dogs which would mean taking them to the vets? I've seen it done on the farm & in a vets & personally don't like it as they seem to get so stressed as opposed to other animals & the squealing is almost unbearable. I can understand why it's done though but I just wouldn't keep mixed gender groups together.
After day 5 (I think, it might be day 7) castration has to be carried out by a vet - doesn't stipulate in the welfare regs that they need anesthetic though.
I have to pick up on your point about the squealing though - ours didn't squeal when the castration was being done (on farm, by my OH at 3 days old). When they were picked up - yes, they squealed like, well......pigs ;D but not a peep from them during the actual procedure - I couldn't have held them or put them through it if that were the case. Maybe older pigs, in unfamiliar surroundings would get a bit more stressed and make a bit more noise though.
As for not keeping mixed sex groups together - that's fine if you have plenty of pigs to keep them company and plenty of space (and very good fencing) to keep them well away from their sisters/mother, but certainly for me it was a choice I made so they could run in family groups without worry of accidental pregnancy before gilts were ready or that if I sold 2 out of 3 boar weaners, one would be on it's own. Everyone has their own way that works for them
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Do you have anywhere you could put the piglets before the vet arrives?
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When we had exactly the same problem with a very anxious sow who'd be at the scene at the very first inkling of a squeak, I managed to extricate the piglets using a lightweight plastic crate, with lots of straw, on its side, and then pushed the piglet in sideways using a handful of straw, ie no hand contact with any part of its body. Sometimes you could get two together this way. As soon as it was in I could usually get out of the plot without a single noise, and hence avoided being angrily chased by mum. It worked about 75% of the time, however there would always be one or two piglets that would squeak their heads off almost as soon as you looked at them. And it may be that at 20 days old they will be too big to do this; we had ours castrated at 4 and 5 days old. So I agree with the others, have a board and stick in there, and a fast escape route if it looks like you are going to be attacked. Good luck.
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Do you have anywhere you could put the piglets before the vet arrives?
That is precisely what I am planning on doing but I still have the issue of extracting them!
Tamsaddle - thank you for the advise.
On a future occasion I'd look to get them done at an earlier age but a combination of events on this occasion made it difficult. (Lucky farrowed slightly earlier than expected, I started a new job and had to be away 2 days and Lucky had mastitis which was our initial priority)
If I get the chance I'll photograph the run later and you'll see that its not the easiest to get into and out of swiftly!
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Being a vet, it is much easier for me to fit within the regulations!
However, as at a younger age, they require less pinning down, anaesthetic etc, I have done my last 3 litters myself at home, between 3-7 days old.
I have had 3 of them develop hernias however, as the way pig testicles descend leaves things with a chance of leaking from inside the abdomen at the groin area. One survived, with surgery to replace the intestines (again as a vet, I could get him into surgery and fix him up very quickly!), but two unfortunately died (one while under anaesthetic to replace the intestines).
Just keep a really close eye on them post castration, if they are off colour, or any swelling in the groin area, or anything poking out from the castrate wounds, take them straight in to the vet surgery.
With older pigs, the vet may do things slightly differently, so reducing the risk of hernia further, but I cannot tell you exactly what technique someone else would be using.
When I did it, my OH fed the sows in one corner, I took a board in to block the door, picked the young piglets up out of the house, placed them in one of these fantastic new floppy buckets, the kind you can scoop both handles together. As your piglets are likely to be much bigger, and out and about, it is likely to be worth having some food to distract the sow, and someone to help fend her off, if your arms are full of piglet!, but picking them up and holding them in your arms (right way up, they get annoyed being upside down!) is probably the easiest way.
Then you can stick them, one by one, into the area you have to put them
Good luck!
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The other important thing to do, if you are going to use any sort of container to scoop them up, is to completely cover the whole piglet in straw for the few seconds you are getting out of the plot with them. I have always found they stay silent for longer if they cannot see where they are being taken and there is no airflow over their heads and bodies. They seem to get temporarily distracted by the process of finding their way out of the straw. If you are feeling very brave, you could have a trial/practice go getting piglets out without Lucky going beserk, a few days before you have to do it with the vet at your place, ready and waiting.
Of the total of 10 piglets we ever had castrated, we lost just one to a hernia - on that particular piglet the person doing it had used the American method of twisting and pulling hard, rather than the UK method of cutting, with which we never had a problem. It was ghastly, poor little thing, all its guts fell out of the hole, and as it was late on a Saturday night we decided to put it to sleep at once. I am sure that terrible yanking method they seem to use in the States must cause a lot of unnecessary bleeding inside. All of them, even the one who died, hardly made a sound while it was being done, and recovered very quickly indeed - nor did their mum notice their purple bums!
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In cattle, we regularly twist and pull the cord when castrating bull calves.
The reason the twisting and pulling is done, is that when the blood vessels are torn by stretching, the blood vessels will usually become narrowed, and close down, limiting the bleeding.
This is a similar phenomenon to when a placenta comes away from a baby, with the umbilical cord pulling and stretching, hopefully closing off the vessels and preventing both bleeding and infection.
In the UK, it is illegal to castrate piglets by tearing tissues, so we have got to cut the cords.
I don't think there is a huge difference in risk of hernia between the two methods, as clearly we have both seen hernias with either method.
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Well I must have very laid back pigs. :roflanim:
My eight sows farrow twice a year I can walk in the pen and pick up a piglet from the minute they are born to the day they leave their mum and the worst I get is a bit of a chunder, I tell her not to be silly and that is that.
I don't own a pig board have never felt I needed it, certainly don't go in with a stick.
Before I upset anyone this is not a criticism of anyone else or the way they do things this is just the way I do it.
I'm not stupid I always have a way out if needs be but touch wood that has never happened.
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i suppose it depends on individuals and breed too, my tamworths were sharper than my gos, but then one of my tammies in particular was very laid back.
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Here is a photograph of the run that Lucky and her piglets are in. As you can see a quick escape from the ark area isn't easy!! (left run far ark) .... with a mud bath to navigate by the gate.
(http://i1140.photobucket.com/albums/n578/P6te/yeUDc_wmYh9g_UQ6yMd6IMPY7EcnL0wDLb02DtBi7qo_zps336baaa8.jpg) (http://s1140.photobucket.com/user/P6te/media/yeUDc_wmYh9g_UQ6yMd6IMPY7EcnL0wDLb02DtBi7qo_zps336baaa8.jpg.html)
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Very impressed with your beautiful fencing, no wonder a quick escape route is impossible. Mine never looked that sturdy. We used stock fencing without any extra lines of wire at the top so we could just step over easily, and never had any of our pigs trying to do the same. One possible solution that might just work: cut a piglet sized hole neatly out of the stock wire at the bottom, positioning it somewhere near the two arks, bend the cut ends back. You give Lucky a selection of slow treats mixed in hay on the far side of the sheds/hole, then when she is fully occupied looking for them and happily munching, see if you can tempt the piglets you want through the hole with, say, grapes or a few nuts. Temporarily, you cover the hole with a plank of wood from fence post to fence post, lots of bits of rope/string handy to tie it in place. Permanently, the hole can be safely repaired from any future escapes by using a larger piece of stock wire over it, and wiring every horizontal and vertical strand around it tightly together. Obviously you need at least two people, one on each side of the fence, and ideally a third taking captured piglets to wherever the vet is working.
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If you cut the wires in a properly tensioned fence you'll screw up the whole stretch.
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Agreed if you cut the whole way through. Only feasible with a small hole. If you cut no more than 3 horizontal strands, avoiding the top and the bottom strands to keep the tension intact, I have found it very easy to tension up the gap again by tightly wiring up 2 or more squares all round the hole with the replacement piece.
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Thank you both for your suggestions .... on this one Hughesy is correct. The fencing is professionally tensioned and all strands are in tension alike. It is tensioned to the point that at the moment I can and do use the strands as a step ladder (due to mud at the entrance) and that is the regular way in and out of the run (adjacent to the ark). Normally the automatic water troughs near the entrance are in use but to avoid the need for Lucky to drag herself through the mud we have provided a tyre water container that we refill near the ark where she is fed.
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Well, today was the day the boars were due to be castrated but over the weekend as we looked at them we decided that although they were just within the regulations (21 day limit) for castration on the smallholding they were too big for us to be comfortable putting them through it and we cancelled the appointment. They are really good solid chunky piglets.
So, we will now have to separate them at the suitable time but more to the point we won't be keeping one as we planned. When out next litter is due we will get things properly organised and hopefully all will go to plan then.
Of the 3 boars, one (or possibly 2) have good markings and conformation so if anyone is looking for a boar to keep for breeding then please message me. I'd really only be happy letting all 3 boars go together unless someone already has suitably aged companion.
Thank you to all who offered help on this subject.
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I was wondering how it had gone, but sure you made the right decision cancelling at their age. It always amazes me the incredible speed they put on weight and size in the first 3-4 weeks. If you ever need to castrate in the future doing it before they are 6 days old is ideal, and you can also learn how to do it yourself once you've been taught how - not difficult or gruesome at all. They are incredibly cute in the video you've posted, look really happy and energetic - lucky mum, lucky piglets - hope you find them a good new home!
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Thanks Tamsaddle,
Next time I'll make sure they are done early but on this occasion for a variety of reasons it didn't work out that way.
Regarding the 3 boars, I'm happy to keep them but if someone is on the lookout for good breading stock I'll part company as per my earlier post.
Pete
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its all experience. once you start breeding then you suddenly appreciate a barn with stalls and solid doors and walls.
we managed breeding pigs with outdoor sties and stables but it was tricky and on our wish list on the new place is plenty of barns, byres etc even if it means we can only afford a tiny cottage.
btw your place looks really lovely. :thumbsup: :thumbsup: