The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Ladygrey on January 20, 2014, 07:48:21 am
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Hi there :wave:
My 7 month old Rough collie puppy has started barking at strangers and dogs and well pretty much everything.
I can tell that its fearfull barking as he doesnt know who they are, but if we are close up then the barking will stop and he will try and hide a little and he is friendly.
He is a little scary when he barks as his bark is so loud and people are looking wary of him now :(
we are doing a socialization class every wednesday evening which he loves and is happy and friendly and loves everyone, its just if I am walking and 1 person or dog comes into view and he starts barking really loud and scary!
Should I be socializing him more? is this just a stage he is going through?
Thanks :)
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I'd say it's a stage he's going through, just keep doing what your doing, IMO collies have a fearful streak in them anyway, mine do, but they grow out of it ( he types whilst precocious little brat (14mnth bc) princess Julie sparkles randomly barks out of the front window at absolutely nothing)
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He may be getting territorial/protective of you.
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Most likely his second fear stage some tips here http://thepuppyplan.com/the-science/teenager- (http://thepuppyplan.com/the-science/teenager-)–-is-it-scary#.Utz1fpGQGSN can't seem to get link to work but if you google puppy plan and go to teenage section it has tips honest :innocent:
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This is a critical time, LG. DO NOT let this bother you. If you let it bother you, you will become apprehensive when you see someone/thing in the distance, the dog will pick that up and assume that you need protection... and an unbreakable habit can be born in very little time at all.
Ask me how I know. ::)
So, if you can, keep your mood light and happy, ignore the barking, make yourself smile and think happy thoughts, sing if that works for you, fill yourself with confidence that nothing bad will happen so there's no need to get upset - and it'll just be a phase he goes through. :fc:
If you can't stop it getting to you (and please be honest with yourself about this), then get some friends to help you desensitise him and you! by repeatedly appearing in the distance and then being fun to see when you come up to them. As they're friends and it's a setup, you shouldn't feel apprehensive yourself, so it'll just be the dog doing his jumping-at-shadows thing, and if you do enough practising, he should grow out of it.
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thankyou everyone
hopefully just a stage he is going through ???
Im trying not to let it bother me but it does.. I feel like I have done something wrong :gloomy:
Its difficult to remain calm when he is barking as he jumps everywhere so obviously I have to reign him in tight to me to prevent him from running into the road... not sure what to do about this
In a place of large amount of people he is fine, its just where there is one to focus on, I think my other dog Laddie started him off as Laddie will huff and growl under his breath (but nothing else) when he see's someone, so Tully has taken this as a warning or a command to start barking...
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I think it's fairly common in pups. My working lab pup does the same sort of thing but without the jumping about. She is 6 mnths old. She barks at something before taking time to work out what she is looking at. ::) The other day it was just a fallen tree that she couldn't make out. She is quite sensitive and shy with people until she knows them. I had an accident a few weeks ago and my father had to come and look after the animals. He'd only met pup a couple of times and she barked incessantly at him the first evening. By the next morning she was his dog, sitting on his lap and kissing him. ::) Think sometimes it is a bit of immaturity. Our pup also hides behind our legs from strangers. Think sometimes they grow out of it completely but they are all individuals and some are more sensitive than others and always need a bit of time to get to know new people (I do too ;D).
If your pup likes playing with people then fun and games from people could desensitize but it would worry my lab pup. I ask people to ignore her and not make eye contact. When she settles down they throw her / or give a treat. Food is the way to her heart. They also used this approach with her at puppy training and it worked well.
Wouldn't worry too much unless you think the bark/body language shows signs of aggression. Try to ignore and be relaxed ..... know it's hard sometimes. Our pup sees very few people where we live but she also is much better in crowds .... too much going on to focus on one thing. Think as they get trained a command can be given .... quiet or the like .... so they know that it is enough barking.
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our dog 15mths, was barking at the horses rug the other day when id left it on the ground - i bet he was embarassed, lol, as he thought it was a monster :roflanim:
my gsd pup took 18mths before she had the courage to bark at the door, even though she wasnt a nervous dog.
keep on socialising him in a matter of fact way. wev taken all ours on buses and trains etc for no reason than to socialise.
i read that putting something comical like a neckerchief around the pups neck helps prevent strangers being so scared of them, and also more likely that they will come up and stroke them and therefore help you with the socialising.
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You can get a ribbon to attach to the pups collar asking that they are given space, also for old dogs, etc. Some scheme or other but can't remember what it was called now .... was given one at puppy training.
Think you have to read your pup. Mine dislikes strangers fussing her too much at this stage. Often people do the big hand on top of head thing which she is very wary of. Depends on pup as to whether lots of fuss from strangers at this stage is good thing or not IMO. Mine is best ignored and just slipped a treat.
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Its difficult to remain calm when he is barking as he jumps everywhere so obviously I have to reign him in tight to me to prevent him from running into the road... not sure what to do about this
Okay, so work separately on getting him to come in close to you when you ask - 'here here' or something, gets him bringing his nose right up to your knees, or, if you can do it, 'Heel close' or similar to get him walking calmly at your side again.
Collies aren't always food-oriented, which can make training harder, but then if they are not food-oriented they generally do have a lot of sensitivity to when you are pleased and when not, so that helps.
As with all dogs, rewarding the right behaviour is crucial; with collies especially, any kind of reprimand is almost always misinterpreted (in our eyes!) as a collie's mind works so fast, the link between what happened and what the collie was doing 'wrong' is nearly always something different to what we meant.
For instance, collie dog gets pulled in close when people appear in the distance. ;) He probably thinks you are frightened of the people in the distance and need his protection ::). The tighter you hold him, the more protection you need... and so on.
So work on a 'come close' command, and a reward that the collie likes and understands, be it a food treat, a pat or a kind word, or something else.
When you are out and he's doing the jumping everywhere thing, use pressure-and-release, and reward him whenever he isn't actively pulling away from you.
By pressure-and-release I mean that if he makes even the tiniest move towards you, release the pressure on the lead. He'll probably pull back out again - that's fine, don't tug but keep a firm pressure, and as soon as he makes even the tiniest move towards you, release the pressure again. Repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat. He's a collie, he'll get the message ;) - even horses get the message, and they have tiny brains! :D
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I agree with all of that, and also try to watch ahead and anticipate what he might take offence at. Difficult to do, but it will help. Been there, got the T shirt :'(
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my gsd use to jump about on her back legs and spin around in circles when she saw another dog so we had to use a halti. she was actually quite a handful but never agressive. that stage doesnt last forever - shes just calmed down - now shes turned 10 :roflanim:
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Thankyou very much everyone :)
Tully is very reserved and maybe a bit aloof with strangers, he isnt trying to greet them or say hello when they are up close, he will just stand quietly, If I invite a friend into the house then he is excited and jumping up and wanting to play, although he wont react to anything they say and wont eat out of strangers hands either...
I dont think I would put something around his neck as it would just get muddy and destroyed! but thanks anyway!
Sally thanks for the suggestion of trying to keep him close! I will keep trying and if I ask him to he will trot alongside me looking up at me so maybe I can use this as a distraction. He eats his kibble as a treat but not much else lol an old lady gave him a piece of hot-dog sausage and he spat it on the floor!
Although he adores carrots...
For instance, collie dog gets pulled in close when people appear in the distance. ;) He probably thinks you are frightened of the people in the distance and need his protection ::). The tighter you hold him, the more protection you need... and so on.
So work on a 'come close' command, and a reward that the collie likes and understands, be it a food treat, a pat or a kind word, or something else.
When you are out and he's doing the jumping everywhere thing, use pressure-and-release, and reward him whenever he isn't actively pulling away from you.
By pressure-and-release I mean that if he makes even the tiniest move towards you, release the pressure on the lead. He'll probably pull back out again - that's fine, don't tug but keep a firm pressure, and as soon as he makes even the tiniest move towards you, release the pressure again. Repeat repeat repeat repeat repeat. He's a collie, he'll get the message ;) - even horses get the message, and they have tiny brains! :D
I am going to try and do what you say! he naturally just walks by my side without any pulling, but if he gets a fright then he will sit his bum down and not move and if he see's something to bark at he will run forwards!
I am at fault here as I did get annoyed with him and then I think he got upset because I was annoyed with him, he can just tell :(
So I need to concentrate on positive reinforcements and training him to ignore people.
The problem is we only usually see 1-2 people a day so if I lived in a high population area it might be different, also I dont have any friends around here who could help me out
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This may not help now but for the future I always take new pups to a big supermarket and stand near the door - everyone and their Mum and Dad want to touch and speak to a cuddly puppy, and it really gets them used to people, and the occasional pram /pushchair or bike.
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This may not help now but for the future I always take new pups to a big supermarket and stand near the door - everyone and their Mum and Dad want to touch and speak to a cuddly puppy, and it really gets them used to people, and the occasional pram /pushchair or bike.
One of the saddest things I've seen was a young Guide-Dog-to-be being sat in a busy shopping centre, wearing a harness saying 'Do not approach; Guide Dog in Training'. Poor puppy dog! He looked so sad and miserable, all these people and every one of them ignoring him! My heart nearly broke! :'(
So yes, socialising a puppy in a busy place, like a supermarket forecourt or a shopping centre, would certainly work - good one Annie! :thumbsup:
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The problem is we only usually see 1-2 people a day so if I lived in a high population area it might be different, also I dont have any friends around here who could help me out
You mentioned that you have been attending puppy socialisation classes? Would any of the people who go there be prepared to meet up and help you? You could go to somewhere convenient for them, it wouldn't have to be in your home area?
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LG - your pup sounds a bit like mine. Kate is quite shy and reserved and if people approach her she doesn't naturally greet them but is a bit nervous. She wants to say hello but is unsure so barks. Our puppy trainer thinks she will partly grow out of it. I have seen it a lot in working labs. She is also really observant and spots objects at a good distance and will bark at them until she works out what they are. I'm hopeful that a lot will stop when she starts her training.
Could your visitors throw a toy for your collie? Or would that interfere with any training you wish to do in the future? We sometimes ask visitors to throw our pup a biscuit if she is reluctant to eat from their hand and she will go to them afterwards looking for a treat ::)h
We have used the supermarket to try and help with training but it's too far for us to do very regularly so has been ineffective. Our pup goes days sometimes without seeing anyone and even if I travel to the village we can linger for half an hour and only see 2 or 3 people.
Guide dog pups are well socialised ...... they have to be! I was friends with a farmers wife who puppy walked and had brood bitches for the Guide Dog Society. She won an award as was one of their longest serving walkers. She was brill and a great source of knowledge about pups and dogs in general. She always had a pup and had dealt with just about everything! No need to feel sad. It's only when they are working that they ask you not to approach/distract the pup ..... just as one might not want a collie or retriever approached or distracted when working. Her dogs often wore similar signs but she would ask certain people at times to fuss her trainees or would say yes when people asked if they could stroke her dogs.
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Some really good advice in these posts, if you want even more there's a really good facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/reactivedogs/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/reactivedogs/)
I would always take this pup out on its own not with any other dogs. Make sure that you have a really nice walking to heel normally, or use a gentle leader type head collar and the dog is not in front of you at any time. You need to meet any dangers in front of your dog so it knows you will protect it. I think with a rough collie puppy it will be apprehension not aggression.
Is there anywhere you can go where you can see these "dangers" at a distance where your dog won't react? (and just as importantly you won't get "butterflies")? Then you can practice being calm together. If your dog is jumping around you are too close - you may need to be 200 yards away! Once you know what your safe distance is then experiment with what's the best way to calm your dog - stroking, talking, yummy treats, a toy? Then gradually - VERY gradually over a few weeks try to decrease the distance by using your calming technique.
I read recently any plan to change dog behaviour takes at least 3 weeks of hard work, most people give up after 10 days and call it a failure. (yes I've been guilty of that one!)
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The problem is we only usually see 1-2 people a day so if I lived in a high population area it might be different, also I dont have any friends around here who could help me out
You mentioned that you have been attending puppy socialisation classes? Would any of the people who go there be prepared to meet up and help you? You could go to somewhere convenient for them, it wouldn't have to be in your home area?
The classes I am attending are ringcraft classes, so the dogs are learning to walk up and down around other dogs, let a stranger (judge) walk up and stroke them etc, Tully LOVES these classes and is full of beans!!
I dont think I could ask any of the people to help me :s its ten miles away from where I live and all of the people are either middle aged or elderly (I have a phobia of people my own age! lol) so I love to talk with them and be with older people :)
Also I wouldnt be brave enough to ask ???
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Could your visitors throw a toy for your collie? Or would that interfere with any training you wish to do in the future? We sometimes ask visitors to throw our pup a biscuit if she is reluctant to eat from their hand and she will go to them afterwards looking for a treat
I think if a visitor threw a toy for Tully he would go hyper and love it! but then again he is different inside the house, the only time someone other than me is in the house is on weekends when I get to see my boyfreind, I havnt lived here long and my house is teeny tiny so I get invited around to my old lady freinds but they dont come round to my house! lol
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Some really good advice in these posts, if you want even more there's a really good facebook group https://www.facebook.com/groups/reactivedogs/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/reactivedogs/)
I would always take this pup out on its own not with any other dogs. Make sure that you have a really nice walking to heel normally, or use a gentle leader type head collar and the dog is not in front of you at any time. You need to meet any dangers in front of your dog so it knows you will protect it. I think with a rough collie puppy it will be apprehension not aggression.
Is there anywhere you can go where you can see these "dangers" at a distance where your dog won't react? (and just as importantly you won't get "butterflies")? Then you can practice being calm together. If your dog is jumping around you are too close - you may need to be 200 yards away! Once you know what your safe distance is then experiment with what's the best way to calm your dog - stroking, talking, yummy treats, a toy? Then gradually - VERY gradually over a few weeks try to decrease the distance by using your calming technique.
I read recently any plan to change dog behaviour takes at least 3 weeks of hard work, most people give up after 10 days and call it a failure. (yes I've been guilty of that one!)
Thanks for the advice!! I suppose I always take both dogs out together... so when Laddie (sheltie) growls under his breath at someone (which he has always done but nothing else) Tully is taking this on and seeing them as scary!
I will try and take Tully places on his own sometimes and maybe this will help :)
This afternoon as we were walking a builder carrying some scaffolding popped out of a garden, Tully was too close to bark but was terrified and tried to pull backwards out of his lead and run off, very stressed puppy, I kept walking and offered him some treats (which were refused) and when we were past I told him good boy and gave him a treat. but then is this rewarding his fearful behavior?? or is it doing the right thing??
He isnt very food orientated so when he is scared he doesnt want a treat, or am I not meant to treat him when he is scared! im so confused ??? ???
Also I met a man walking today, I saw him from 200 yards off but the path was too narrow for both of us at the same time, so when Tully spotted him I called Tully to look at me to distract him but I had to pull him to the side to let the man past us, he barked one or two times but when the man was past and he was quiet I gave him a treat and told him "good boy" was this right??
obvoiusly I couldnt relax when I was holding him as I had to move him out of the way...
Although after that a bicycle went past on the road and I stayed nuetral and ignored it and so did Tully :)
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ladygrey - you live in basingstoke? - theres a really ace dog trainer who is (or was) in the romsey / winchester area. shes called patsy parry. its all positive stuff, and i think shes even trained movie star dogs. she does good citizen etc.
she was my trainer for my pup 10 yrs back when we lived down you way. it would be worth a shot.
http://www.apdt.co.uk/dog-owners/local-dog-trainers/hampshire/patsy-parry-bahons (http://www.apdt.co.uk/dog-owners/local-dog-trainers/hampshire/patsy-parry-bahons)
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Unfortunately I now live in Stroud! which means I dont know many people and its not the biggest place, mainly hills and umm more hills
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He isnt very food orientated so when he is scared he doesn't want a treat, or am I not meant to treat him when he is scared! im so confused ??? ???
The more you get into dog behavior theories the more confusing it gets! I went through many behaviorists and read many books trying to get help with my dog reactive setter - and I came to the conclusion no two behaviorists agree!
Some say don't reward fear, some say give reassurance to fearful dogs. Don't worry about what you are meant to do - read about options and suggestions and try them out - in the end your dog will tell you what is right for them. Sorry if this is a bit airy fairy - but the dog in front of you will usually be the best source of information about what to do. You sound as if you can read your dog well so you will get through this together and have a really good bond because of it. :dog: :dog: :)
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I met a man walking today, I saw him from 200 yards off but the path was too narrow for both of us at the same time, so when Tully spotted him I called Tully to look at me to distract him but I had to pull him to the side to let the man past us, he barked one or two times but when the man was past and he was quiet I gave him a treat and told him "good boy" was this right??
Sounds right to me - it worked didn't it? Not sure about the builder though, perhaps you should have not treated at all, and walked on fro a bit, then asked him to come to you and treated then.
Are you going to show Tully or is that the only class available for socialising?
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Just found this if it's of any help - http://www.sacramentodogbehavior.com/6mistakesbmod.htm (http://www.sacramentodogbehavior.com/6mistakesbmod.htm)
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I dont think I could ask any of the people to help me :s its ten miles away from where I live and all of the people are either middle aged or elderly (I have a phobia of people my own age! lol) so I love to talk with them and be with older people :)
Okay, you love to talk to them. So talk to them. Talk about this problem you are having, see if any of them have the same problem, or have had it and found a way to get past it. Talk to them about how you would like to be able to set up some exercises but haven't anyone nearby to where you are to help. About how you love the people in this group, how you feel comfortable with them, how you would be happy to travel to somewhere convenient for anyone who could help you with this... are you getting the picture? :D ;)
Also I wouldnt be brave enough to ask ???
See above! :)
Also I wouldnt be brave enough to ask ???
And, although I suspect from what you're already doing and saying it won't get this far because you will work through it with Tully :) - if you don't manage to get it sorted on your own, then it's your decision whether you decide to ask these nice kind older folk for a bit of help or spend the next 10-15 years screwed up with apprehension every time you see something your dog isn't going to like the look of in the distance. Yes I am being again famously blunt - but I have that T-shirt and I do urge you to find the courage to ask for help if you need it, rather than blight the rest of your time with this dog. Ask me how I know ;)
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Thankyou doganjo :) I am hoping to show him one day, but I dont mind when and I dont care if I do well or not :) its just fun to enter :)
Sally yes I suppose you are right :) Maybe I will ask someones opinion one day, we are off there tonight but I dont know if I could ask tonight..
Today's walk was really good :)
instead of turning right out of my lane and along the pavement until I get to the field (which I do the same route 4 times a day) I turned left, and I walked right into town (only 2 miles)
I had Tully on an easyer to handle lead (thinner and lighter) and I set off and didnt let him walk infront of me, well we walked past dogs, men, ladies, bycyles, children everything and he never said a word, we went into the pet shop and bought some treats and said hello to the lady's border collie (which growled and snapped at him) and he was very happy :)
A little boy ran up to him and hugged him (Laddie hid behind my leg) and he wagged his tail and stood still :)
then we walked all the way back again :)
This evening I turned right (my usual way) and a man came running down his driveway in the dark and Tully got a huge fright and as he couldnt run away because of the lead started barking.
So I think I will try alternating the route we go and he is definatly happy and waggy if he is around lots of people and things and he is frightened if there is just one person and they jump out at him
Tomorrow I will do the same and walk him into town :)
Also I noticed that when Laddie (sheltie) see's another dog he gets all tall and tail goes up over his back even though he doesnt say anything... but Tully then is copying Laddie.. but its going to take me ages to walk them one at a time so maybe I could walk Tully once a day on his own and see how he goes
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its going to take me ages to walk them one at a time so maybe I could walk Tully once a day on his own and see how he goes
You're doing pretty good so far. I know how it feels to be dog walking a lot of the day. Because of the type of dog, mine get free running rather than road walking but because my girls don't get on (Belle has similar fear symptoms to Tully, following attacks, but she's 9 so it's more difficult a problem to solve), I have to do two walks a day. Changing the venue is good because dogs don't relate actions to places, so any improvements have to be reinforced by doing them in different areas.
For instance, when training a long seek back retrieve, (250 yards)I trained Allez to do it in one field, in a number of lengthening stages, then took him to another field and almost went back to the beginning, although because the commands were clear in his brain it was quicker, and each new field I went to it was quicker still, till eventually the command 'go back' now means 'I'll find a retrieve if I keep on going in a straight line because Mum says so'
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It sounds like you're making great progress - well done :thumbsup:
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Just found this if it's of any help - http://www.sacramentodogbehavior.com/6mistakesbmod.htm (http://www.sacramentodogbehavior.com/6mistakesbmod.htm)
I love that!
I see so many dog owners out walking their dogs, completely oblivious to the fact that their dog is looking up at them, seeking some form of feedback. If I had just 2% more Crazy Dog Lady in me, I would roll down my car window and shout, “REWARD THAT, for Pete’s sake!!!”
I have 2% more Crazy Dog Lady in me than she does, and I am going to start doing that :)
It is better to be rude forgotten five minutes later by a stranger than to be paying their dog’s vet bills or explaining to animal control why your dog just bit someone.
If I can work that into a T-shirt slogan I am going to get some printed :)
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:thumbsup: Well done you and pup. From your last description your pup sounds pretty average to me. A lot of our pups over the years have barked at the odd thing ... they are dogs after all. My fathers labs will still give the occasional bark or growl if they see something or someone they don't like the look of or can't make out. If they bark too much after that first sort of warning bark they are given a command that means "that's enough ... it's okay". You could teach pup that eventually if you need to.
Think it's a good idea to walk any young dog on their own on a regular basis .... know it's time consuming though. Pup gets your full attention, gets confidence to be on their own, easier to teach some of their lessons this way etc. I try to do a mixture with pups. Current pup is much better when she encounters new things if with our older dog ... so opposite position to you. He is friendly to the point of being a nuisance ::), bless him, and our pup is so tempted to overcome her fear and fuss people when he is greeting them. She is far more relaxed. Very possible that it works the other way for your pup and he picks up the negatives from your older boy.
Relax and enjoy. ;D
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Thanks so much everyone! :) you are all so knowledgeable and friendly!!
Tully is doing better again today! we passed two men and he just said a small gruff under his breath, I gave him a treat for being quiet :)
I'm going to take him out into town again tomorrow but its busy chucking it down right now so we went to the fields instead.
Will concentrate on trying to take him out on his own sometimes, but then I feel like im neglecting Laddie :( I hope he doesnt mind.
Tully had a fantastic time at dog classes wednesday night, he is the best behaved puppy there and better behaved then some dogs :) he was desperate to play with a border collie but ended up having the greatest fun with a group of little daschunds!! He is very freindly with everybody but in a collie way, he doesnt wag his tail at anyone and he lets them stroke him but doesnt go up to them or greet them lol he is such a one person dog! more so than Laddie ever was!
Im pretty sure its just a scary phase he is going through that I need to just ignore and stay calm and not get stressed about it and we will be fine :)
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That all sounds great, LG :D Thanks for the update!