The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Curly Sue on December 16, 2013, 08:17:46 pm
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In 2014 I will be buying some pigs with 2 objectives in mind - I want 1 pig butchered and in the freezer at no cost and I want £1,200 profit (something I want to buy.......). I will be doing it with a friend who lives nearby on some land he has bought - 4 acres. Is this realistic on 4 acres with my first foray into swine?
Constructive criticism / thoughts welcome!
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I can't help but if you find a way to do it please share it with us all.
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YES , absolutely. go for it :-J
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You want too make £1200 profit from one pig? Is that right 4 acres is a good amount for the pigs are the fences good there? Pigs cost a lot too feed that's thesis cost
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There is a pig costings calculator somewhere on this site. That would give you a good start with the real costs of keeping pigs.
Bit optimistic in year 1 for me unless you are thinking of lots of pigs.
I watched a video from polyface farm about how he processed pigs through 20 acres - maybe it would work if you scale it down to your 4 acres.
Its a bit tedious to watch but an interesting concept.
How Joel Salatin Nets 60k/year on 20 Acres of Rented Land! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7BgtCqcEP0#ws)
Good luck either way!
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This has to be one almighty wind up or just barking mad.
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id say def a wind up - from a pig farmer who completely understands no-one makes a penny :roflanim: :roflanim:
renting the land out would make the money though ;D
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I've heard the old "there's no money in pigs" thing many times and for a lot of people there isn't. However to start up with pigs and expect to just walk into profit is very naive. Or a wind up. Please do come back and tell us how you got on.
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Probably best to just go on the game. :trophy:
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I remember one of the pundits on the BBC business news saying that as far as making a living from investing in shares goes, you might as well put your money on a horse! Unless you do your homework and are prepared to work very hard, the same could be said of keeping pigs except there's less chance of winning.
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Curly Sue
Either your £1200 is a typing error ??? or you're barking mad!
This week I've sent 3 pedigree GOS pigs to the butchers for pork, I sell them at £280 per pig = £840
Out of that theres £193 butchering costs, then theres the feed they've had, water, straw and transport costs to come out so I'm lucky to break even, we keep one quarter for ourselves.
Commercial pig farmers losse roughly between £5 & 18 per pig so go figure.....do the math!
Keep dreaming girl, you ain't gonna make your fortune in pigs! keep doing that lottery.
best regards
mandy :pig:
God I'm getting cynical in my old age.........................................................!
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Hey old age isn't that bad a thing. Well not so far anyway. :fc:
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Morning All,
No, it's not a wind up, just ignorant of the facts. It almost sounds as if the more pigs I have the greater the loss.. that's a sad story ??? :-[
If I temper my objectives for year 1 then maybe a more realistic goal would be to keep half a pig myself from 4 acres and maybe 8 pigs... I'll have a look at the calculator and see what it throws up.
Is it realistic to package ourselves and sell retail..?
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Even if you're well connected and it's a one-off enterprise, can think creatively and have some very generous friends who will take pity buy stuff from you at inflated prices, there's a vanishingly small chance you could achieve this.
The only conceivable way to do it would be to sell value-added produce at the end of the chain. Top-end charcuterie can go for £50+ per kg. So to get your £1,200 profit let's say you need to produce 30kg of quality salami, be at break-even before selling an ounce of it, be able to sell it at little cost, and have a butchered pig in your freezer for you.
The trouble is that raising pigs to produce the quality of pork you will need to prodice a premium product requires high quality inputs - good stock, good feed and good stockmanship.
You don't mention if there is any infrastructure on the 4 acres or if your profit needs to cover capital investment too. Pigs need houses, good fencing (or very good walls), and management. That all takes time and money.
If you are costing your time too then there's nay chance. And thinking about it, even if you're not costing your time there's nay chance. :D
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Sorry, didn't see your reply before posting.
It is a sad story, and most people who keep pigs on a small scale don't do it to make money, because it's so difficult to do without making significant compromises.
Have a read of our pig articles where we go through the basics and share some of our experiences and costs:
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/livestock/pigs/ (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/livestock/pigs/)
The pig calculator is at the end. Rosemary also posted about our pig venture this year, which was the smallest scale we've kept pigs on and should give some more idea of the economics:
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/diary/kunekune-pigs-for-meat/ (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/diary/kunekune-pigs-for-meat/)
And please ask questions or search through the forum for previous posts - there are a lot of very knowledgeable people on here who will be happy to help. :thumbsup:
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does it have to be pigs? geese are profitable as they require little feed, plenty of grass
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Sue.
Buy yourself a couple of weaners and fatten them up for yourself and a couple of friends. At the end of the project you'll have some super pork to eat and a much better grip of the economics of keeping pigs.
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Sue sorry we all thought it was a wind up! Believe me there are a lot of people who try to make something out of pig keeping and fail. It's not easy. There is a lot of experience and expertise on this forum but still none of the pig keepers here are ordering themself a new Bentley for Xmas that's for sure. We agonised over how we could turn a profit from our small acreage and pigs are the way we've gone. But we've spent thousands and are still spending, even though we have a fairly consistent turnover now we expect to break even this year at best. Next year will see us in profit but I still won't be paying myself a wage out of it. To have any chance at all you need to forget trying to make anything out of selling weaners or sending pigs to market. Or indeed selling to butchers or any other wholesale. The only way is to sell your produce direct to the end user and doing this opens so many cans of worms and presents so many hurdles I'd need to write a book to describe it all. And apparently there isn't much to be made from writing books either. As has been said, get yourself a couple of weaners, rear them and sell some meat to friends and family. See how that goes and take it from there.
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I've only got as far as reading a couple of how to keep pigs, but will sometime take the plunge and get a couple for the freezer. I know people who have done the same, as well as reading posts one here, it seems from this bit of research that if you break even and have a freezer full of pork you're doing ok. I would be inclined to think about other things you could do with your four acres. If it's well fenced, and has water and a field shelter, horsey people might pay you £7-10 a week per pony, times three ponies, over a year, you'll be looking at proper money. My mum does this, it almost pays for her horses keep and the lease. Although it's hassle as any dragging gates or broken fences or anything are her responsibility.
This year I had a go with chickens. I bought eggs, hatched and reared them and sold the pullets... I just broke even... And am now down £60 odd after buying wormer. I feel like this was pretty good going for year one! Best of luck to you!
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Some really good advice here, thank you all so much. A few have asked if it needs to be pigs...? I think it does, only because I like the little blighters! I don't think I'd have as much fun with geese or ponnies.
Year 1 costs will include fencing and housing of pigs so yes, capital outlay. Having said that, my partner in crime is from farming stock so I'll be knocking on a few friendly doors for donations!!
I shall temper my ambitions to a freezer full of good food and hope not to lose any money. Are there many onerous regulations when selling to friends or friends of friends???
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I shall temper my ambitions to a freezer full of good food and hope not to lose any money. Are there many onerous regulations when selling to friends or friends of friends???
Yes & No
Yes if you follow the letter of the law however most EHO's turn a blind eye to one off sales to family & friends provided your 'customers' either collect from the butcher who does your cutting & packing or you collect and deliver it to them within a couple of hours.
If you cut yourself then theres millions of expensive rules & regs to go thro. Find a good abattoir/butcher who will kill, cut and bag for you, collect and deliver to your pals, job done. Simples :thumbsup:
We only do pork twice a year and this works for us, that's part of the reason my butchering is perhaps a tad more expensive than most because its jointed, vac-packed, labelled & boxed and sausages are made and packed in trays. You can save money by just getting it jointed and put in large poly sacks for your customers to put in freezer bags themselves and not get your sausages trayed, this is ok if they know what the respective joints are and are happy to weigh the meat themselves.
HTH, feel free to ask away for anymore info. the best part of rearing your own pork is knowing you have done a good job, that your pork had the best life it possibly could and you know what it has been fed.
Good luck
Mandy :pig:
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The easiest way to sell to friends and family is to get them butchered by a local butcher and have your customers collect halves or quarters direct from the butcher. That way you never have to touch the actual meat and the butcher should have all the right certificates and processes in place. Getting a reliable local butcher has been our biggest problem though.
We do about 25 pigs a year, of which about 20 go to members of our community farm and we sell five to friends. I reckon we 'make' about £50 a pig when sold as halves when accounting for costs but not capital expenditure or my time!
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Many butchers wont do this, they see us pig producers as poaching their customers.
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Many butchers wont do this, they see us pig producers as poaching their customers.
Hehe I have a mate who has a butcher's shop and I try to poach his customers whenever I'm there! To be honest a butcher would be mad to turn down some occasional cutting work as it's money for old rope if they've got the time to do it.
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I'm sure those with a keener business brain could make a slightly better go of it but we now reckon that if we end up with half a free pig we've had a result and that's by writing off set up costs . We managed that last year from 8 bought as weaners. Feed cost just too high for anything more. . There's an old adage which I think comes from horse racing which is that the way to make a small fortune in racing is to start with a large fortune- so I guess the way to end up with £1200 is to start with £2200- having pigs is great fun and we miss them terribly when they go and the result is blooming delicious but there's no money in it for us
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Really it's like any other business. You need to control the costs, produce a quality item that people will want to buy, and then you have to sell it, hopefully all of it without incurring any wastage, and for more money than it cost to produce. Simples.
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I always used to keep a couple of weaners to fatten every couple of years or so and make bacon sausages hams etc plus fresh pork and pates.
A few years ago (before the feed prices were this high even) I decided to work it out on paper before going ahead It came out to £5.50 a Kilo allowing for the things you often dont allow for ie bedding and driving backwards and forwards to collect them, take them to the abbatoir and collect the offal same day etc
I bought some nice woodland reared Berkshire pork instead Just ready for straight into the freezer (thankyou Debbie) - and very nice it is too
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Really it's like any other business. You need to control the costs, produce a quality item that people will want to buy, and then you have to sell it, hopefully all of it without incurring any wastage, and for more money than it cost to produce. Simples.
It most certainly would be simples if pig feed cost less!!
Curly Sue, we have got 11 sows (I think if I've added up right :P ) plus 4 boars and however many piglets/growers/porkers/baconers/young breeding gilts this lot have produced, getting through approx 4 ton of feed a month. Over the year we cover our costs so the pigs pay for themselves mostly. We certainly don't make a living, myself and OH both have proper jobs alongside doing the pigs. Money from them doesn't come in regular so more often than not feed is paid for out of our wages. We keep our pigs as a hobby for showing and because we enjoy having them. They are bloody expensive, take up all our spare time, I HATE doing them in the winter but when you have a sow farrow and see the piglets grow up and keep one to breed the next generation and get them out to shows in the summer and socialise with like minded friends it becomes worth it[size=78%] [/size] ;) [/size][size=78%]. [/size]
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We keep our pigs as a hobby for showing and because we enjoy having them. They are bloody expensive, take up all our spare time, I HATE doing them in the winter but when you have a sow farrow and see the piglets grow up and keep one to breed the next generation and get them out to shows in the summer and socialise with like minded friends it becomes worth it
Ditto! ;D As the L'Oreal advert keeps saying "because they're worth it!" ha ha
mandy :pig:
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I've made this point before but there has to be a line drawn between hobby and business. it's not fair to compare to compare an enterprise which is seriously trying to make a living with one that is not. It does seem that often it's the people who have a wage paying job and keep pigs in their spare time that are the same people who tell us there's no money in pigs. And no point moaning about the cost of feed either we all know what the costs are and we have to cut our cloth to suit. Like I said before it is simple really. Turnover minus costs = profit or loss.
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About sums it up Hughesy :innocent: . I'm only in it so i know for a fact my pigs were raised ethically and if i cover costs and have a freezer full of pork i'm happy. I'm only dabbling admittedly as i dont have enough land.
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About sums it up Hughesy :innocent: . I'm only in it so i know for a fact my pigs were raised ethically and if i cover costs and have a freezer full of pork i'm happy. I'm only dabbling admittedly as i dont have enough land.
Which is absolutely great. I should point out that I wasn't having a go at anyone and that all pig keeping is great. Raising meat ethically is very important and many "hobby" breeders are doing great things to ensure the survival of our native breeds. And it is difficult to make any money out of it but not impossible.
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Totally agree :thumbsup:
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I've made this point before but there has to be a line drawn between hobby and business. it's not fair to compare to compare an enterprise which is seriously trying to make a living with one that is not. It does seem that often it's the people who have a wage paying job and keep pigs in their spare time that are the same people who tell us there's no money in pigs. And no point moaning about the cost of feed either we all know what the costs are and we have to cut our cloth to suit. Like I said before it is simple really. Turnover minus costs = profit or loss.
There is a big pig business near Penrith with thousands of sows that hasnt been able to make it pay and were going bust. Have heard that one of the big supermarkets have stepped in now to keep them going. Plenty have been selling up this year. A heck of a lot of big farms which appear to be expanded are purely funded by the bank and not by healthy profits. With the big ones it is either risk a lot and go bigger or pack up . So if the big ones cant make it pay not sure the little uns can either.
I would like to see pig feed come down and it has slightly this winter, wasnt moaning just commenting ;). We will continue at the moment to breed what we do because we want to. We are happy and skint, obviously doing something wrong but who cares its only money
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I agree to some extent about the big farms. Trouble is they're at the mercy of the supermarkets and have no control of the price they will be paid for their output. It's totally different at the small end of the market. We have control over what we produce and when, and more importantly who we sell it to and what we charge for it. I firmly believe that to have any chance of success you've got to be in charge of some of the important decisions and the big farms that supply the supermarkets aren't.
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Wow, looks like I've dived into a hot topic here!! I too will have it work it out on paper and trial it in 2014. We've 2 small children who will love it so it will be worth it for them if nothing else. My father used to have a few and really enjoyed it, I know I will.
Turning to profitability, I can't see the price of pork changing much until consumers change their buying habits. At the moment they will buy as cheap as they can and the supermarkets will strive to meet that demand, turning the screw on producers to comply. The celebrity chefs have done a lot to educate the public but household budgets are tight. Most people want cheap convenience and good produce sadly doesn't fit into that category.
Putting that to one side, what breed creates the best bacon and how well is taste defined by the type of feed?? That question should stir a few comments over Christmas!!!!
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Luckily there are people out there who don't want cheap they want quality. Having said that I don't see a need to charge posh farmer's market prices either. We price ours at a similar level to what a decent butcher would charge for pork but we push the fact that it is outdoor, rare breed, high welfare, local, etc, etc.
As regards feeding regimes yes it will make a difference but not as much as outdoor vs indoor or rare breed vs commercial hybrid pig.