The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: Rosemary on August 24, 2009, 09:58:59 pm
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I have had a contact from a certain Government department seeking views from smallholders. I will be speaking with the researcher tomorrow at 11am. I'm sorry it's such short notice but your thoughts re. the questions woudl be appreciated.
Again, apologies for the short notice - my fault, not theirs.
Some questions for you to mull over:
* How would you define a smallholder?
* Do you call yourself a smallholder/do you think others call
themselves smallholders?
* Do you think there are certain groups within the definition -
different types of smallholders (including what group
you might fall into)?
* What motivated you to become a smallholder and continue to be
one?
* What current issues do you face as a smallholder?
* Do you have preferred ways of getting information, any trusted
sources?
* What role do you think they play in the local community?
(economy, sense of belonging, community feel)
* How do you safeguard the welfare of your animals?
* What relationship do you have with vets? Close/trusted?
* How would you describe your attitudes/beliefs towards the
environment?
* Do you have a county parish holding number, receive the June
Survey and/or claim single farm payments?
* Are there any smallholder myths you think we need to bust?
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Rosemary I don't think I can class myself as a small holder. I have about 4 acres of land that I have for my many animals, would grow vegetables if I had more time though. I am on first name terms with all the vets in the practice we use and I am fiercely protective of all the animals. They are all locked up at night time and sonce the last fox attack we have installed the Foz Watch things and have human hair hanging in tights all around the land and so far so good.
I think a smallholder as being someone with any size of land that grows their own fruit and veg and may or may not keep a few animals. In some way it has a "romantic" picture attached to it but I know it is very hard work and requires a lot of dedication.
Hope some of this may help you.
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Personally I think a smallholder should have more than veg and three chickens!
Ok maybe the chickens qualify but a smallholder should be 'holding' ie have an animal that requires a cph number,
We have 2 goats, 3 pigs and 18 chickens, but in a surbanan back garden, between the house and veg patch. m proud to be a small holder but feel v misunderstood sometimes. No mr farmer, I cant take 100 hay bales, I cant store them. No mrs petshop, one bag of hay at £2 is not enough!
Motivation- wanting more independence from supermarkets, wanting to provide own milk, cheese, eggs knowing what conditions the animals were in. Having the space and time due to personal circumstances.
Have run out pf time now - would you let us know what the researcher says.
Wou;d love to carry on this discussion with you all!
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Rosemary,
I always dreamed of some kind of self-sufficency, just because I like to know where my food comes from and prefer what is grown without pesticide use. Now I do grow quite a lot of fruit and veg myself and have a few birds for eggs. I gradually got to this stage. I don't think I'll be "growing" animals for meat in the near future.
I would not have called myself a smallholder (the actual meaning suggest more animals than I have and running it as some kind of business?), but it sounds nice, especially with the "Accidental" attached, lol.
My main trusted source for info is TAS and some other forums and books.
Although it is not new to me, I see growing my own food as a very important step to reducing food miles, etc. I also enjoy a lively exchange of produce in the close community.
The vet's just around the corner and very capable but difficult to get hold of at short notice.
The only myth that needs busting is that it is only hard work having animals and growing your own food. It is hard work in a way, but ever so rewarding. :&>
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Personally I think a smallholder should have more than veg and three chickens!
Personally I think this is an elitist view. Many people have a small amount of land and like to grow veg and have chickens who couldn't grow larger animals because they build up relationships with their animals to an extent that they cannot kill them. I could not kill a pig or a lamb or a duck or a chicken for my own food. I am not a vegetarian but I prefer to eat meat grown by a smallholder, rather than a factory
Some people have a fair bit of land and a CPH who could in your definition be called a smallholder but who do not make proper use of that land. I was that person.
I am more of a smallholder now, in an acre of garden ground with a small veg patch and a small fruit patch and a cockerel and 11 hens and a drake and three ducks than ever I was with 21.5 acres and a croft number, let out to a local farmer. OK we grew veg and had a few hens and ducks latterly but no way would I have joined any smallholders association. I now feel very confident and very much at home as a member of Central Scotland Smallholders Association!
JMVHO
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" Don't tell them your name Pike" ;D
Most government departments are on a need to know basis and they need to know nothing.
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* How would you define a smallholder?
I think it depends on the person who is smallholding. In some ways we are not as much smallholders as other people, but I would still class us as that.
* Do you call yourself a smallholder/do you think others call
themselves smallholders?
I call us smallholders, and yes I certainly class others as that- even those who don't keep animals/livestock.
* Do you think there are certain groups within the definition -
different types of smallholders (including what group
you might fall into)?
Yes- I think there is a group who mainly produce fruit and veg, and other groups who have mainly livestock, and others who have a mix of both.
* What motivated you to become a smallholder and continue to be
one?
It started a long time ago, and motivated my father not me! However what motivates me now, is my animals, and a better quality of life for me, my family and them.
* What current issues do you face as a smallholder?
Rules and regulations- movement restrictions, vaccinations for this that and everything else, ear tags. Goats being classed as sheep, when they are not sheep.
* How do you safeguard the welfare of your animals?
We are fortunate in our location, and the location of our property, our animals are located further from the road and are not easily visible by passers by. All animals are shut in at night. Our land is double fenced to protect against disease transmition etc. We have an excellent working relationship with our local vet, and ensure our animals are wormed and protected by vaccines as much as possible.
* What relationship do you have with vets? Close/trusted?
Excellent working relationship with our vets, and also the practice we used to use before we moved area. My mother is a qualified vet, and they are very good at taking on board what she has to say, and giving us the medicine or supplies we need.
* How would you describe your attitudes/beliefs towards the
environment?
I believe in eating local produce where possible, that we should not be transporting food great distances just so we can have it out of season. I also believe local markets and abbatoirs should be used, rather than transporting animals great distances.
* Do you have a county parish holding number, receive the June
Survey and/or claim single farm payments?
Yes
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Its a tall order for this time of night Rosemary...but here goes...
Q : How would you define a smallholder?
A: Anyone who utilises land owned/rented by them to grow food or raise animals, either for their own consumption or for retail purposes, on a scale that is unlikely to generate full time employment of other people.
Q: Do you call yourself a smallholder/do you think others call themselves smallholders?A: I am a smallholder and know many other people who would call themselves smallholders for the reasons given in the answer to the previous question.
Q: Do you think there are certain groups within the definition - different types of smallholders (including what group you might fall into)?
A: I would suggest there are three main groups, each of which would have subcategories for specialisation; they would be
Agricultural Smallholder - (someone who cultivates their land to produce food or plant stock). Sub category – horticulture
Livestock Smallholder - (someone who utilises their land to breed or raise animals for food production). Sub categories – Bovine, Porcine, etc
Generalist Smallholder - (someone who utilises their land to grow crops and raise animals for food production). I would classify myself as a Generalist Smallholder
Q: What motivated you to become a smallholder and continue to be one?
A: A desire to adopt a rural lifestyle which would enable my wife and I to indulge our passion for rare breed farm animals and locally produced foods. I/we remain smallholders because nothing we have ever done before has given us so much pleasure or reward. Our smallholding now incorporates a Farm Shop, which provides us with an outlet for our products and produce and returns a reasonable income; and my wife and I have become an integral part of the local community.
Q: What current issues do you face as a smallholder?
A: The same issues as any other business Finance, People, Resources and Time; never enough of either and a shortage of all!
Q: Do you have preferred ways of getting information, any trusted sources?
A: The internet, farming friends, specialists and other smallholders with similar or more experience than ourselves.
Q: What role do you think they play in the local community? (economy, sense of belonging, community feel)
A: Economically, it largely depends on what the smallholder does with the product/produce he/she produces; i.e. whether or not its for own consumption or retail – a sense of belonging is again dependant on whether or not the smallholder actively seeks to be part of the community – there is a place in every community for a smallholder, if he/she plays an active role within it.
Q: How do you safeguard the welfare of your animals?
A: By adhering to the DEFRA guidelines and animal welfare standards.
Q: What relationship do you have with vets? Close/trusted?
A: Personally, we enjoy a close and trusted relationship with our vet.
Q: How would you describe your attitudes/beliefs towards the environment?
A: My belief is that we should all do our utmost to sustain the environment and keep it in a clean and safe condition – unfortunately large parts of our environment are being contaminated and/or destroyed by political mismanagement.
Q: Do you have a county parish holding number, receive the June Survey and/or claim single farm payments?
A: Yes to all of the above
Q: Are there any smallholder myths you think we need to bust?
A: That smallholders are all amateur hobbyists playing at being farmers!
Hope this helps
Farmer
:farmer:
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I'm with Farmer on every point,couldn't have put it better myself Sir!
One more myth to bust;We're not all like Tom and Barbara,some smallholders balance professional lives as well............ Ree
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I agree with farmer and Ree, would like to add (although not living in UK) that the bureaucracy intended for the larger farmer should sometimes be a little more lax for the smallholder who does not have 2,0000 plus pigs.
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I too feel that bureaucracy is a big problem in britain and that some rules are detrimental to animal health, this is the main reason why I'm moving to america in a few years time
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Where doyou fancy going to Ian ? If I were twenty years younger I'd go to the US or Canada
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Sorry to curb free speech - but could we really, really try and keep this thread on topic - so I can point the researcher to this forum and thread.
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GOVERNMENT RESEARCHER ?????
ye gods ..is there nowhere where we can talk without 'the powers that be ' sticking their noses in asking questions and making 'data bases', 'lists' . Sorry but I have well and truly had enough of government intrusion in my everyday life . I will not be answering ANY questions about what I think or do for ANY government RESEARCHER ....????? WHY do they want this information ? WHY do they need it ? WHAT are they going to do with it ? ...no doubt as usual, there will be logical sounding answers to these questions , but it just gets more and more intrusive .
bye........
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OK, no-one's forcing you. Calm.
My view is we have to work with them, so might as well give them the best info we can. As a former public servant, I don't have quite the same jaded view of government, or those who work in it, as you do.
Thanks to those who have responded in a considered way. Further comments still welcome.
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Personally I think a smallholder should have more than veg and three chickens!
Personally I think this is an elitist view. Many people have a small amount of land and like to grow veg and have chickens who couldn't grow larger animals because they build up relationships with their animals to an extent that they cannot kill them. I could not kill a pig or a lamb or a duck or a chicken for my own food. I am not a vegetarian but I prefer to eat meat grown by a smallholder, rather than a factory
Some people have a fair bit of land and a CPH who could in your definition be called a smallholder but who do not make proper use of that land. I was that person.
I am more of a smallholder now, in an acre of garden ground with a small veg patch and a small fruit patch and a cockerel and 11 hens and a drake and three ducks than ever I was with 21.5 acres and a croft number, let out to a local farmer. OK we grew veg and had a few hens and ducks latterly but no way would I have joined any smallholders association. I now feel very confident and very much at home as a member of Central Scotland Smallholders Association!
JMVHO
What makes you so sure my animals are all grown for slaughter??!!
They are not.
I think smallholding is as much a feeling as a label - if you don't think you 'qualify' then maybe you don't. Then again...
I would like to have the land to do a little more, but I dont want to be a farmer. I live a surburban street, with a large back garden, and couldn't comfortably have many more animals or grow more.
As for making use of the land thats a very personal decision too. I hate people commenting on my animal keeping,(where do you have them? Have you moved? How do you find time? And worst of all - Why?!) without having seen it first, seen how much room they have, how secure they are, and how well they are looked after.
My husband is agoraphobic - he spends all day with them, while I (sadly) have to go out and earn a living!
Just because we live in a town doesnt mean we cant do a good job. Yes its very Tom and Barbara but I'm proud of that.
Our animals are fit and healthy and are more friendly than some people's "pet" Dogs.
Does that soud like I'm ranting? Cos I honestly didnt mean it to!
x
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Little Blue
I think you maybe misread my post or misunderstood it. Or maybe I misunderstood you. I thought you meant/said that if you grew some veg and had a few chickens you couldn't be a smallholder in your opinion. I disagree.
I don't think I specifically implied that your animals are purely for slaughter - my apologies if I did, and does it matter anyway, some people do, some people don't?. And I don't remember commenting on anyone's method of animal husbandry. I wouldn't have the audacity - people in glass houses etc
All I was saying was that I disagree with you about that statement. I used to have a small croft with a CPH but we didn't utilise it as such so I wouldn't have classed myself as a small holder. Yes I moved - to be near my family after losing my husband in a climbing accident - how does that have any relevance? - most people on here know that anyway. I had time because the kids helped me................ I can't see the relevance in that either. ???
Now I have a large garden, poultry and vegetables and DO class myself as a smallholder - albeit an accidental one ;D ;D ;D
I don't have a problem with folk ranting ;) quite used to it, an anyway Russ is the Champ on here on that subject! ;) ;) ;D ;D
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Hey Rustyme, the proccedure for goverment is ask the questions collate the data save the data to disc then lose it .....simpills lol.
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Noun , smallholding , a piece of land under 50 acres that is sold or let to someone for cultivation.
Sounds about right to me.
I think one of the lovely things about being a smallholder, is the fact that there is not one of us here that works the same. We have our own little ideas, good and bad. We get ideas of the net, handed down from relatives, think up our own etc. Wee are all pretty independantly minded folk as well. Not content with acting like our own sheep !
We do this each for SO many different reasons, far too long to put on a form for some officials.
The one thing smallholding gives me is the little glimmer of some independance. On my own land doing what I want to do when I want to do it. That my friends counts for a lot.
Kevin
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That's IT! In a nutshell. That's what Rosemary should have said to the Council person. That definition of being sold or let for cultivation means ANYONE with a garden is a smallholder - fact! All gardens are cultivated in some way - even the hard landscaped ones have pot plants in them. ;D
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Problem is Annie is that this official wants to know MORE than that. I share Russ's worries there, although I am not quite as paronoid as him yet ( working on it though !)
If you look at the questions asked, it gives them quite a good snapshot of ....YOU the smallholder.
I admire Rosemarys patience on this. I am afraid, file this kind of form...........in the black bin liner.
Kevin
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OMG, paranoia strikes deep. It wasn't a form; the lassie phoned me and is phoning me this afternoon to discuss the research. It's for Defra and they are trying to find ways of improving communication with smallholders.
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Parish Holding number?! As in holding animals, not just tending the land? I dont mean to be pedantic, and I love hearing diff opinions, but I still feel smallholding has to involve an animal, otherwise is gardening, Whether is a few roses, veg, market gardening or arable.
Semantics isn't it
(I have a Horticulture qualification, but never been on any livestock type courses simply for reasons of access. But I am a smallholder as well as a land cultivator!)
Rosemary, what feedback have you had from the researcher. Did you show them this thread?!!
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OMG Rosemary, they have your phone number !!!!!!!!!!!!
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;D ;D :&>
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Yes, I showed them this thread. They are probably checking your email addresses right now. Be afraid, be very afraid. ;D
I agree about the holding number / gardening
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I've nearly wet myself laughing whilst I read this thread!!!!!!!!!
I suppose I'm too late to give the DEFRA lass my opinions! Nevermind, I am pretty much with farmer all the way and only wish I could be as articulate!
I have never even bothered to consider whether I am a smallholder - I am just me and I enjoy fruit, veg, and animals. I love getting muddy, I love watching the pigs belt down the hill, ears flapping, when its feed time. I love watching the joy my children get from collecting the eggs, carrying the chickens around or diggin for worms.
I hope my children will learn to respect all living creatures (except for red mites!), understand where their food comes from and how important animal welfare is. When we wanted more hens we specifically got Ex-Batts as an educational exercise for the children. I want the children to understand their environment and the impact hat we all have on it. I hope they will grow up to be free thinkers and no take things at face value.
I love being outside and if we could afford it we would definitely expand further into smallholding. Yes I have a CPH number, but I don't do the Single Payment scheme as it seemed too bureaucratic and more trouble than it was worth for a 2 acre field!
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Don't worry, I am not paranoid but I too do not like the idea of bodies of people monitoring what people are saying/doing. I will not have reward cards due to this although my OH took out a Tesco one but I will not use it, my theory, they look at my buying patterns and obviously others, then trim prices to suit, eg, what I buy all the time gets a bit more expensive and what I do not bu too often gets cheaper, I used to nitice when I had children at school, during the school holidays, children type food and drink went up!!!!! I have even bought shoes and been asked for details!!!! my brother walked out of a shop without buying a laptop for cash when they asked name address etc!!!!! It may seem trivial but NO it's not....I also will refuse to fill in such forms!!!!!!!!! Its very hard to live a private life and some people find the intrution a bit too personal.
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and don't forget 'the eye in the sky' - Flash Earth and Google Earth are watching you - why is there not a scary icon, Dan? ??? >:( :censored:
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And those camera's WILL get clearer and better so we cn be watched ::) ALL the time :o
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Paranoid or not, I'm with Russ on this one. Is nothing sacred?
Dave
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Maybe there will be a market for "private rooms" somewhere like a lead lined room with no windows....they shouldn't get us there!!!!
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nothing new since 1984
we all have to weigh the pros and cons for ourselves. In my early 20s I protested loudly against a Census in my home country out of the very reasons you all stated and I see the danger of too much information in the wrong hands. But the pro in the mentioned loyalty card shows in my wallet in a good way, I'm afraid to say. It pays for my family's yearly RAC membership and a restaurant and a science museum visit in the holidays, things I could or would not afford otherwise. I don't give a sh.. if they know what I buy, if their prices go up I go elsewhere. And they can send me hundreds of vouchers for chicken and I still wouldn't buy them from the Big T as I have a free range farm in the neighbourhood. :&>
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I didn't add, during the last FMD outbreak, although obviously it was leaked, I did appreciate the automated telephone call that went out to all holdings advising of the halt to all animal movements. And given that I nearly ended up stranded at a agricultural show with 8 goats, I was also very appreciative of SEERAD being so on the ball, and being able to be on site and advise us so promptly. It meant that rather than ending up stranded, we were able to get home again.