The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: graham-j on November 10, 2013, 06:47:12 pm
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Hi,Just been up to see my sheep this evening as I do every evening. 3 of them have got swollen lips,they look like they have been punched in the mouth,two of them have swollen lips and the third has red swollen lips.I think its orth what are your thoughts.I put a new ram in with them two weeks ago after a month in quarantine,The ram is showing no sign what so ever of swollen lips.The ewes have been on the same field for a bout 3 months,but I have use the field for about a year.I gave them a new lick bucket two weeks ago as well.I have herd lick buckets can give it to them so I have taken it away but they normally have one.How should I deal with this I suppose I am going to have to call the vet in anti biotics.What do you think.Any advice greatly appreciated.
Thanks Graham.
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If its orf you should see little blisters or sores round their mouth. 3 of my sheep got it this summer, ewe and her 2 lambs. It just came on out of the blue, as they were in their own paddock, but had been with me only a week. I just sprayed a couple of times with battles anti-bac blue spray, and they went on their own after a week or so. Try not to touch the area with your hands (make sure you wash them thoroughly if you do), as I hear it can be very painful if you catch it. Ram may be the carrier
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Hi,thanks for the advice there are no sores,I have taken the lick away hopefully this will do the trick.
Thanks Graham.
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Orf can be carried by an apparently healthy sheep so may gone undetected in your new ram. The virus would just have lain dormant in him until now. Do hope there's a less nasty explanation, but, if caught early with the blue spray your sheep should be fine.
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Hi,thanks for the reply,is blue spray different to purple spray I take it that it is.
Thanks Graham.
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We had orf this summer which seemed to take an age to sort. Eventually we got on top of it with regular sprays. Probably most effective was a 5% iodine spray on it initially and then a bit of fly cream if it was dry and cracking. The blue spray we have is certainly different to the purple spray we have. The blue is antibacterial (terramycin) on prescription, expensive and we try to use sparingly for foot problems and infected wounds. Purple is only an antiseptic, used for cleanjng wounds, available over the counter and to be honest not much use. We prob use it most for marking at drenching time so we know who's been done. Bit of a waste of money really.
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Yes, blue spray is a topical antibiotic.
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I'd suggest you search out some pics of orf to see if you think that's what you've got. If you're not sure, it would be a good idea to take some pics and post them here so we can see whether we do think it looks like orf.
Search here on orf and you'll find plenty of threads about it and the various remedies we use.
It's a virus, sheep which haven't come into contact with it before would have no immunity so could easily blow up with it. It has to enter through broken skin, so a typical situation is lambs getting it around their mouths from eating prickly thistles. Possibly the new lick has a rough rim, the new tup has deposited virus there, the sheep have punctured their lips and picked up the virus?
Being a virus, antiobiotics are pointless. I am trying to not get on my ranty horse :rant: :horse: about using antiobtioics where there is no evidence of bacterial infection...
There is no treatment for the orf virus, the infection just has to run its course. However, you do want to guard against them getting a secondary bacterial infection, which is why people use the blue spray. In this case, the antispectic purple spray will do every bit as good a job and not add to the problems caused by over- and inappropriate use of antiobiotics.
The other country remedy which people use, including us, is to dip their faces in a strong solution of Daz. We do find that Daz plus antiseptic purple spray gives the best recovery. And yes it has to be Daz, not any of the other washing powders.
Of course if they already have secondary bacterial infection - if there is any pus for instance - then an antiobitic injection or spray would be indicated.
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I gave up using purple spray years ago, it was not man enough most of the time. I do use it instead of iodine at lambing time, because its more convenient. I can buy it from my local feed merchant, and its not much more expensive. Being an antiseptic as opposed to an antibiotic, I don't see why you wouldn't, to stop any bacterial infection in the sores?
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Hi,sorry this is the best pic I can get it was raining hard.What do you think..
Thanks Graham.
(http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc431/graham68j/SL380444_zps1c537024.jpg) (http://s1211.photobucket.com/user/graham68j/media/SL380444_zps1c537024.jpg.html)
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That looks like orf.
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Hi,yes that's what I thought.Those sores weren't there yesterday.There are 5 sheep in the field.The new ram and one of my existing sheep haven't got any sign of it.One just looks a little red under the nose,one has swollen lips and a few small sores and then there is the one in the photo this is the worst one.
I have caught and sprayed with purple spray the worst two today..I have anti biotic spray from the vet and I think I may have to use that on the worst one tomorrow if it doesn't look any better.
Graham.
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I know you think I'm mad, but the Daz does help, really it does. They mostly stop getting worse when you do it. You can do purple spray on top of the Daz if you want - they look bizarre but who cares so long as they are being treated, eh.
Do take care handling them if you have any broken skin on your own hands - best to use latex gloves for safety. It's not the end of the world to get it yourself, and you only get it once, but there are a few people who have a really bad reaction to it so it's probably worth trying to avoid it. ;)
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agreed- that looks like what ours had- we spent several weeks this summer almost neurotically washing hands and hoping we hadn't scratched somewhere we shouldn't have. its not pleasant. my neighbours little boy got it on his face a couple of years ago after visiting a farm visitor attraction and petting the lambs- poor little chap
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Hi,thanks for all the advice I don't know what I would have done with out it,I could have cried when I first saw the state of them.No doubt the vet would help at a cost.I have just use purple spray for now.One is looking a bit better, even the worse one didn't seem as bad.I will use Daz if I have to thanks.
I know what you mean about washing your hands,I keep doing it and I feel all itchy now.
How long will I have to keep these sheep away from the rest of the flock.The grass where they are has run out what should I do.
ThanksGraham.
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Orf hangs around and remains viable for many months. If you don't have the pasture then you'll have to mix the flock again and accept that contagion is likely and treat it. There is a vaccine but you may have to speak to your vet about that - it has a lead-in time so may not work for you if the disease is already present.
Keep applying the spray daily for a few days - if the scabs are infected then that is the right treatment and it will ease that aspect of the problem.
Otherwise, I would regularly and thoroughly clean all troughs and equipment until you are sure that the disease has gone. And I agree with Sally - definitely wear gloves. And keep the kids away.
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Get some blue spray. It's always worth having on hand. It doesn't cost much and if you show your vet that pic they'll see it's orf, hopefully won't then charge you for an examination/call out and will prescribe you some.
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I really hope that no vet would prescribe antibiotics for a viral infection!!
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Orf scabs are liable to bacterial infection.
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They can be, yes.
Prophylactic antibiotics are generally regarded as being a bad thing, however.
So uninfected orf should be cleaned and kept clean - Daz and/or antiseptic spray do this job very well.
If the orf lesions get infected then yes, antibiotics may be necessary.
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My you're quick Sally.
I look forward to my next bout of orf so I can try the Daz trick.
Shame that Ecover won't do...
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lol. Actually the Daz trick predates Ecover - you could try a controlled test... We just use the Daz because we find it does work.
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We go for non-bio with the septic tank. I assume that bio is the answer...
I see a PhD thesis appearing...
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I find it strange that Ovaloids haven't had a mention when it comes to Orf cases.
They are a small black capsule (same in size as a cod liver oil capsule) and contain different natural ingredients such as.... You guessed it Cod Liver Oil!
They cost about £16 for 100 from most farm supply places and are administered much the same as you would a copper bolus, with an applicator or if your quick enough with your fingers.
Ive found that catching any lambs with signs of Orf, giving them two Ovaloids, and an engemycin/Terramycin spray round the mouth with a follow up spray if needed a few days later can really help the recovery process.
If you feel they need it another two Ovaloids can be given a few weeks later.
I must stress how important it is for people to wear gloves when handling sheep with suspected Orf, it is really nasty!
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Hi,all bar one sheep look a little better today definitely no worse.The worse one looks like it might be more swollen,and has got some deep cracks in its lips.I have some blue spray ready.
I'm going to try,should the water be hot,warm or cold how much should I use.I take it I put some warm water in a bucket and about a mug full of dazz,then stir it up.How do I his head in the bucket,it doesn't sound very easy,I bet it must panic them.
I need to move this ram in with the rest of my girls,should I dose them up with Ovaloids.Poor sheep.
Thanks Graham.
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Very glad to hear you are containing the condition - well done.
Yes, water warm enough to dissolve Daz and not give them a cold shock along with the soapy water shock!
Yes, push their muzzle in and hold it for a second or two. It's over quickly and they don't suffer any lasting ill effects.
Once Dazzed and antiseptic sprayed, any deep cracks would probably benefit from Sudocrem. I haven't used it on orf lesions myself but it is good for cracked hands in humans, and for dry cracked skin following fly strike treatment.
I know nothing about Ovaloids, sorry. There is a lick that some people use; we've used it ourselves - 'Frobut' Tubby bucket. Some people say a good mineral / rock salt will do just as good a job.
You could call the vet and ask whether it's worth considering vaccinating - it says it takes up to 4 weeks to develop full immunity, but you may find the vet advises it's worth doing in your situation.
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Hi,thanks again for all the advice,the worse one finally looks a little better today,poor thing.
Graham.
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Hi,day 11 all sheep looking much better now except they look like they have been in an accident in a felt tip factory all different colors of purple and blue.
Thanks Graham.
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good- that sounds a lot quicker than ours took- but we were in midsummer and the flies were constantly on them stopping it healing up :thumbsup:
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Hi,that sounds awful I hadn't thought about fly's luckily none about at the moment.
Graham.