The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Azzdodd on September 05, 2013, 08:51:11 am
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Well I went down last night and he was lay on his side I thought o god went over got hold off him check all over for injuries and flystrike not a thing he is limping and holding one leg up....no signs off a break I am going to take him to the vet sometime over the weekend but by his ways the out come won't be good.....I refuse to have him PTS cause I had a goat done a few years back and it was horrific....so I will take him to the abbotior purely cause I know how fast it's done there. I don't know if I could eat him as he was my first ever sheep.....centimental attachment....but I feel I wouldn't want to waste it he is about 6 so pretty old...a welsh mountain? What could I do mince him all? Or will there be some good
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First our knackerman is really quite good and quick with old sheep, so I am surprised that you will not have him sorted that way.
But, we have eaten 4 (or maybe he was 5 by the time he went) year old Shetland tup. However took him in the spring, not in autumn/winter - despite firing blanks he was still incredibly smelly in November... and I guess the meat would have been tainted more earlier on in the season. Slow roasting with loads of liquid, casseroles and currries all very nice from him. Mince can be quite fatty for the older ones, unless you cut the carcass up yourself and then can choose what goes in and what goes into the pot to render for soap.
Not sure if abattoir takes in animals that limp?
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Abbatoir won't take anything that's not weight bearing on all 4 legs normally.
Maybe reconsider PTS, I had our old ram PTS and it was incredibly peaceful and dignified. Plus no journey stress and stress of being at an abbatoir.....
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It's a painful time for you, I know, :bouquet: - but please remember that it is illegal to transport a sheep that cannot bear weight on all four legs. So you will need to get him sorted at home. It will be cheaper to get the vet to visit on a weekday than at the weekend, plus if he is in pain you shouldn't be waiting another two days to get a vet to see him.
If you can't see any sign of a break then could he have been rammed and have a very bruised shoulder or something? :fc: it is some injury that could heal.
However, if it is as you fear, and you need to get him PTS, and if you don't want the vet to do it, then as Anke says, the knackerman can usually sort this out for you, or your local hunt may offer the service.
If you want to use the meat for yourselves or friends, you should be able to arrange this but I am not sure at what cost. We have a merchant we use when we get a beast (bullock or cow) with a broken leg but otherwise suitable for human consumption. We have to get the vet to co-ordinate their visit to certify the animal suitable for human consumption with the merchant coming to the farm to slaughter and remove. However, by the time you pay for the vet's visit and certification it may be too costly for a tup; you would need to make enquiries and decide.
I hope it isn't as bad as you fear :hug:
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Well gonna try get the vet out tonight to see him he is normally first to the gate for a biscuit....he does bear some weight on it just not very happy about it. See what the vet says and go from there all I can do....
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we had a goat PTS by the vet and she didnt do it properly, wasnt in the vein and it took him 2 injections (one on each side) and 5 mins of crying before he died (and goats do cry). never again. it cost £110 on a sunday morning.
now i get the knacker man to shoot them, very very quick, very professionally and cost about £7. even for a horse its much kinder than sticking needles in.
:bouquet:
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6 years is not very old for a sheep, unless he has had a hard life in the mountains
Could be a painful abcess/infection. An antibiotic injection could do the trick.
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As a vet, I try to offer the option of euthanasia of sheep/cattle/horses by injection or by captive bolt gun.
Some people (myself included) often prefer the gun as it suddenly renders the animal unconscious with no further suffering.
Others absolutely prefer an injection.
It can be difficult to find a vein in an animal that is unwell and close to death, so it can be very difficult, but it can cause reactions and if not injected fully into the vein it can leave the animal awake for a while.
It is not something we vets like to see either, but sometimes the vascular access can be unpredictable and we have to do what we can to rectify the situation, and cause euthanasia with the least possible harm.
With your tup, certainly worth going to the vet and checking if there's anything you can do for him
All the best
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We had an alpaca PTS and it took the vet more than an hour. Very distressing experience. We don't use the same vet for our sheep, I sincerely hope if we ever find ourselves in that situationagain it will be more dignified.
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If you keep sheep - get a .410.
If you call the vet/knackerman you will have to wait for him to turn up whilst the animal is suffering and pay em nigh on £100.
My old .410 cost £150, will soon pay for itself and I can end suffering instantly. Your livestock, your responsability.
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If you keep sheep - get a .410.
If you call the vet/knackerman you will have to wait for him to turn up whilst the animal is suffering and pay em nigh on £100.
My old .410 cost £150, will soon pay for itself and I can end suffering instantly. Your livestock, your responsability.
does it require a license etc?
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Our fallen stock collection is just over £20 per sheep. I don't think they charge extra for shooting.
fsmnutter - please can you answer me a question? I read that the captive bolt only stuns and that the animal must be killed while stunned - by shooting, slitting its throat, electrification, for instance - or it will wake up.
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If you keep sheep - get a .410.
If you call the vet/knackerman you will have to wait for him to turn up whilst the animal is suffering and pay em nigh on £100.
My old .410 cost £150, will soon pay for itself and I can end suffering instantly. Your livestock, your responsability.
does it require a license etc?
Yes - you can have one on a shotgun ticket, which most should be able to get.
Sally - a captive bolt is just that, the 'charge' goes behind the bolt - there used to be ones that penetrate, but they were considered a disease risk and now they deliver a blow to the skull without penetrating - basically its a bit like being hit over the head with a hammer. Given that this might not kill an animal, it is best to bleed it. You'd do that after 'normal' slaughter anyway...
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Sally - a captive bolt is just that, the 'charge' goes behind the bolt - there used to be ones that penetrate, but they were considered a disease risk and now they deliver a blow to the skull without penetrating - basically its a bit like being hit over the head with a hammer. Given that this might not kill an animal, it is best to bleed it. You'd do that after 'normal' slaughter anyway...
That's pretty much what I had understood, which is why I asked fmsnutter for more info as her post suggested to me that she euthanased by captive bolt gun only ???
As a vet, I try to offer the option of euthanasia of sheep/cattle/horses by injection or by captive bolt gun.
Some people (myself included) often prefer the gun as it suddenly renders the animal unconscious with no further suffering.
Others absolutely prefer an injection.
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Just to reassure some people. I also had an alpaca PTS but in her case it was extremely peaceful and well done. The vet was experienced with alpacas and was calm and knew that the dosage required for an alpaca is very high compared to a similar weight animal - he used two bottles and I think said that it was the equivalent volume required to PTS a cow,
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I regret that I too have had the unpleasant experience of seeing it take too much time and more than one injection to euthanase in this case a part-grown lamb. It was a vet who subsequently left the profession, so perhaps now I would feel more confident with a vet I have known for a while and know to be completely competent.
I am also tortured by the memory of asking the fallen stock collector (this was on a previous farm, with a different fallen stock company) to end the suffering of an old ewe. He was a kind man, considerate to me and the ewe, but neither of us was certain the deed was done after the first bolt. :'( And hence there was a chance that she was aware of what was happening when the second blow was delivered. Horrible horrible. Now, having read that the captive bolt doesn't kill, I am tortured further by nightmares that she woke up in the wagon...
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My goat was horrible 2 in each leg then 2 in the heart I was cryin my eyes out! At the age of 18 she was bleating like mad and I just had to hold her I will never ever have an animal go the same way. That's why I wanted to go the abbotior as I know how fast it kill them
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My heart breaks for anyone who has been through the traumas that some of you are describing.
When it was time for our first sheep to be PTS I didn't know what to do. I knew what I personally didn't want in our situation - hunt kennels, knacker man or shooting - but I had heard that finding the vein for the injection can be very tricky.
However, our wonderful vet came to the rescue and said he could sedate Amy beforehand. So as it turned out, our experience was as calm and peaceful as I could possible have hoped for. Amy was lying down in her stable, little needle jab in her backside and then she dozed off in my arms. At that point the vet could snip away the fleece around the vein and get easy access for the lethal injection. And then she was gone.
I know this won't be what everyone would choose, but I just wanted to let you know of our experience and to say that when you have a great vet they are worth their weight in gold!
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My heart breaks for anyone who has been through the traumas that some of you are describing.
When it was time for our first sheep to be PTS I didn't know what to do. I knew what I personally didn't want in our situation - hunt kennels, knacker man or shooting - but I had heard that finding the vein for the injection can be very tricky.
Gun behind the 'horn rige' pointing towards the gullet. Better to use a .410 than a rifle because of ricochet (be very careful if you are using a .22). If it is still alive then, you can always give it another cartridge (not that I've ever known that happen) - or you could cut its throat just after in a 'just in case' precaution.
Dealing with these things gets easier, the more of it you do - it is always hard at first, but ultimatley you will know you have done the best for your animals. I admit that I developed thicker skin than most about this early on, because aside from the usual 'boy shoots rabbits' escapades, I did my work experience at 14 in a vets, and the vet thought it was important that I should see animals being put to sleep, so when people didn't want to be there whilst that was happening ( I would stay out of the way if they did), I would be let in the side door. A cynic would say that he also needed help carrying the deceased....
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I think there may be different kinds of captive bolt guns as, when I had a pony break a hock, the hunt man came and used one. It certainly pierced the skull and she bled profusely from the hole.
From what I understood, a captive bolt gun mashes the brain, but in theory, an animal could still be alive, albeit in a semiconcious or comatose state. Presumably, if the operator completely misses the brain, the animal could in theory be full concious, but I'd imagine the concussion, as with a hammer blow, would render the animal unconcious for a few miutes at the very least. I think the bleeding is for the benefit of making the meat more edible than anything, although the implication is always that it is a belt-and-braces appproach before butchering.
Hope your ram just has a foot abcess or similar Azzdodd and is being a drama queen. :fc:
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Sally - a captive bolt is just that, the 'charge' goes behind the bolt - there used to be ones that penetrate, but they were considered a disease risk and now they deliver a blow to the skull without penetrating - basically its a bit like being hit over the head with a hammer. Given that this might not kill an animal, it is best to bleed it. You'd do that after 'normal' slaughter anyway...
That's pretty much what I had understood, which is why I asked fmsnutter for more info as her post suggested to me that she euthanased by captive bolt gun only ???
As a vet, I try to offer the option of euthanasia of sheep/cattle/horses by injection or by captive bolt gun.
Some people (myself included) often prefer the gun as it suddenly renders the animal unconscious with no further suffering.
Others absolutely prefer an injection.
Hi Sally
*WARNING, DON'T READ IF OF SENSITIVE DISPOSITION, GRAPHIC DETAIL OF CAPTIVE BOLT EUTHANASIA*
There are different types of captive bolt available, as described, there is a version that doesn't penetrate the head, causing stunning by concussion, which I believe can be used for Halal slaughter, as they are not allowed to eat meat unless it has been 'killed' by cutting its throat, whereas in the UK animals must be rendered unconscious first, so this type satisfies both the laws of the UK, stunning the animal, and Halal tradition whereby the animal will still be alive when bleeding.
The kind we have (and I have also seen used in abattoirs) has a cartridge behind a 'bolt' which when shot, protrudes out of the gun by a short distance, enough to penetrate the skull and brain, causing immediate unconsciousness in the animal. On occasion, this bolt will cause sufficient damage to the brain to kill, but the only way to be sure the animal is dead is to ensure brainstem death. In the abattoir, this is done by bleeding, or this could be done for euthanasia as well.
In practice when euthanising an animal, not for human consumption, it is usually done by a procedure called 'pithing', where a long pole, either metal or plastic, is put into the hole to ensure the brainstem has been destroyed. This cannot be done when the animal is intended for human consumption due to concerns over BSE, etc.
I have also used the captive bolt to render a horse unconscious instantly, followed by a lethal injection, as it was in the field in the dark, and I couldn't be sure the captive bolt and pith had done the job, and certainly did not want the scenario you painted where the horse could wake up.
Using a captive bolt, after a very short period of time, it is possible to be sure that the animal has died, as the stun from the captive bolt will wear off within a minute, and therefore after that point, if it is not breathing, it will not wake up. Whereas, I have heard horror stories from other vets about lethal injection in sheep, where heart and breathing have stopped, but 10 minutes later it has woken up. This is why I would always give a very high dose of injection (like the 2 bottles for an alpaca story), as it is not possible to break down the injection and come round from a greater dose, and make sure that it won't wake up again by waiting a suitable length of time.
Hope that clears it up, and wasn't too gory reading
Suzanne
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Having been present at a large number of animals being put to sleep by injection and also chosen to be present when my sheep were killed using captive bolt ( for slaughter) immediately following by throat cutting. I can tell you my preference would be for injection ofr euthenasia . I'm not sure that the animal knows a great deal of difference but I find the bolt gun violent.
Each as far as i'm concerned has the potential to go wrong but of primary importance is that everyone involved understands the proceedure and the requirements to ensure it is carried out respectfully and with conscience.
Do NOT ever assume the vet knows what he/ she is doing i've worked with enough to know that some are very competent and others shouldn't be let loose on animals for vaccinations let alone anything more invasive. You are your animals best advocate.
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Has the ram seem a vet yet?
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That's pretty much what I had understood, which is why I asked fmsnutter for more info as her post suggested to me that she euthanased by captive bolt gun only ???
As a vet, I try to offer the option of euthanasia of sheep/cattle/horses by injection or by captive bolt gun.
Some people (myself included) often prefer the gun as it suddenly renders the animal unconscious with no further suffering.
Others absolutely prefer an injection.
thats what a pithing rod is for. gives a good clean kill, much quicker and its not that hard to get a captive bolt gun, although I think some training is required.
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He had been seen and the vet was useless and cost £139 there is no breaks or abscesses he gave him pain killer and antibiotics and has made me pen him up but doesn't know what it is.....
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thats what a pithing rod is for. gives a good clean kill, much quicker and its not that hard to get a captive bolt gun, although I think some training is required.
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when we had a pony shot, they used a pithing rod, but when a poorly weaner was shot he didnt - it was a professional knackerman. any idea why it was different - size maybe? death was instant in both cases.
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I think I have been very lucky. I had my old goat which was our family pet euthanized by injection and it was very quick a bit like when they do a cat or a dog. I had booked her into the pets crematorium as I didn't think I could dig a big enough hole, so the vet helped me put her in the boot of the car. I went into the house to have a cup of tea and a good cry and then set off on her last journey. I had only been in the house 20 mins but what ever had obstructed her now made her empty her contents all over the boot, there is only one thing that smell more than a live goat and that's a dead goat. We never really got rid of the smell in the car despite professional style air fresheners.
I have had two horses euthanized by injection, a lot more long winded putting in the cannula etc, the first one dropped like stone the second was ill and shocked but the injection was effective, I think if you are not used to it its less upsetting. I am a bit of a wimp and need to have my old pony euthanized but I think it will be the hunt as its quick and she hates needles but I do not think I will be able to stay with her when its done.
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Its a few years ago now but - our (old) Old English Sheepdog had looked at me with alook in her eyes that said she's had enough, vet's next morning, brought her home to bury her. It didn't dawn on us till later, we had dug the hole, had a hot drink, carried her over, yet rigermortis hadn't set in, the thought still haunts me we buried her alive.
As the vet had earlier treated another dog (who had a strange choking cough) for bronchitis, a week later took him back, he was so full of cancer the (different) vet didn't wake him up from the sedative she's given while she'd x-rayed. Doesn't give you much faith?
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Suzanne - thank you very much for your comprehensive reply. I think I understand it all a lot better now.
When the fallen stock people shoot a sheep for us I am pretty sure they don't pith. Does this mean there is a chance the animal might regain some sort of consciousness in the wagon?
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Suzanne - thank you very much for your comprehensive reply. I think I understand it all a lot better now.
When the fallen stock people shoot a sheep for us I am pretty sure they don't pith. Does this mean there is a chance the animal might regain some sort of consciousness in the wagon?
It may be that they use the captive bolt with a cartridge designed for a larger animal, such as a bull or horse, which I think would mean the brain would be killed outright, potentially even are using something with a free bullet?
I would be shocked if they were using a light captive bolt stun and not pithing as it would certainly not be in their interests to have anything wake up in the wagon.
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When the fallen stock people shoot a sheep for us I am pretty sure they don't pith. Does this mean there is a chance the animal might regain some sort of consciousness in the wagon?
It may be that they use the captive bolt with a cartridge designed for a larger animal, such as a bull or horse, which I think would mean the brain would be killed outright, potentially even are using something with a free bullet?
Ah, that would make sense; they're bound to need to shoot larger animals too. Thank you so much, I can put my fears to rest now. :relief:
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Suzanne - thank you very much for your comprehensive reply. I think I understand it all a lot better now.
When the fallen stock people shoot a sheep for us I am pretty sure they don't pith. Does this mean there is a chance the animal might regain some sort of consciousness in the wagon?
It may be that they use the captive bolt with a cartridge designed for a larger animal, such as a bull or horse, which I think would mean the brain would be killed outright, potentially even are using something with a free bullet?
I would be shocked if they were using a light captive bolt stun and not pithing as it would certainly not be in their interests to have anything wake up in the wagon.
Isn't being a knackerman or similar one of the few cases when you are allowed to have a handgun on your ticket?
A friend of mine is a 'keeper on the New Forest and I know he was mulling over applying for one, because he got a lot of calls about deer, ponies etc that had been hit by cars...
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Suzanne - thank you very much for your comprehensive reply. I think I understand it all a lot better now.
When the fallen stock people shoot a sheep for us I am pretty sure they don't pith. Does this mean there is a chance the animal might regain some sort of consciousness in the wagon?
when a knackerman was at ours, i noticed a sheep was still breathing in the back of his lorry. he said he hadnt shot it it, just picked it up from a farm apparently already dead, but know he realised it wasnt dead, he would shoot it when he was away from my farm. he said his boss would go nuts if any animal was taken back not dead.
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UPDATE my old man when out in the filled this morning and tupped a ewe...think he may be feeling better! Thanks everyone for the comments and really made me realise I need a new vets.....