The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: mab on August 25, 2013, 10:24:38 am
-
OK, I know this has been gone over before (been checking past posts),but as it looks like I may have to go & buy some stock sooner than planned (Assuming something quick and local doesn't turn up), I have to decide which breeds would suit my needs.
looking at the bewildering choice on the NSA website, I'm thinking if I put down what I'm looking for and maybe get some suggestions of breeds I can look out for (or which to avoid) - if nothing else, putting it down here will help me get it clearer in my own mind.
My thoughts are:-
fairly easy to care for & not prone to health issues.
I'm about 6-700ft up but on steepish land, most of which is fairly rough, and fairly sheltered from winds (in the valley & lots of trees & scrub) but gets a lot of sun (south facing).
I'm working on improving & repairing fences but a breed that isn't prone to escape might be prudent.
I'm planning on stocking lightly with the intention of not relying on vast amounts of supplementary feed in the winter.
I'm not adverse to rare breeds but don't want to go a long way/ pay through the nose for an obscure breed.
it would be nice to produce meat for which there's a good market, but profit is not the priority.
I do already have 1 shetland and know and like that breed.
I don't know if I'll end up keeping my own ram, but as wondering if there are any ram-breed issues to be aware of just in case.
I must admit I've never been to a mart so I don't know what I'll find there.
-
Not sure I would buy at mart but worth going along to see what the local market likes. best thing is decide what you want from your sheep - pretty things to eat the grass, wool, commercial meat or tasty meat. How many - a few you can eat yourselves or sell to f&f or sell at auction commercially.
You mentioned sheep that don't escape and shetlands in the same paragraph :o You sure you have a shetland?
If you don't want to buy a ram, buy from a local breeder who would either lend you a ram or take your ewes back for tupping. Can also give support to a newbie.
-
you answered your own question with your first thought , "easy to care for" . www.easycaresheep.com (http://www.easycaresheep.com)
:thumbsup: decent commercial sheep that will do both jobs . lambs for meat or ewe replacements . no trouble with flystrike or needing clipped .any excess lambs can be sold through the normal channels . often struggle to get anything for rare breeds on open market. i like the rare breeds but they are rare for a reason
-
You mentioned sheep that don't escape and shetlands in the same paragraph You sure you have a shetland?
well, that's the principal argument against more shetlands, although, as long as they're happy they don't try very hard to escape.
not too worried about pretty, and with a small no. of shetlands I found the wool more faff than it's worth.
My first thought is that I don't really have enough friends & family near enough to go that route so that would suggest I should go for commercial - except I get the general impression that the commercial breeds are higher maintenance/ prone to health & quality of grazing issues.
maybe I should go for the 'tasty' and look for private markets for it (or make more friends), as I'm starting small and building up the flock as I clear/fence the land.
currently looking on preloved, but some of the nearby sheep are crosses which just adds to the confusion.
LFE but do they answer all the questions - like being easy to get?
-
as a separate (but related) question:- when I moved here I arranged a new CPH no. so I could move the sheep from my old place in England. I've just been checking my paperwork and notice that I don't have a new flock no. (neighbour thinks my old one moves with me but, this being Sunday, There's no-one to answer the question at the Welsh govt.).
does my flock no. move with me?
-
LFE but do they answer all the questions - like being easy to get?
go on the website and click on stock for sale .they are native to wales
-
Yes, you'll keep the same flock number.
-
thanks MH - I was worried if I did find some animals I'd have to wait for a new no. to be sorted.
LFE, there's one in aberystwyth, POA, though I'm still reading up on the breed - don't like to take the ECSS word alone - all societies think their breed is the best.
-
Have you thought about Hebrideans? OK I keep them so I'm sure to be biased, but they do seem to say yes to all your points. They are certainly hardy and healthy, easy lambers and plenty of milk, with good feet (especially on rocky and/or dry ground) the meat is well known as a gourmet product so to some extent the markets are already there. Hebs are plentiful, with pedigree breeders in Wales and there are bound to be unregistered flocks if you don't want to go the reg route. They have a very weatherproof fleece, but do need to be shorn. They thrive on varied pasture, but benefit from hay when the snow lies and a small amount of hard feed the 6 weeks before lambing, but the meat is far better from grassfed lambs. One slight downside is that the carcases are best cropped at 16 months, so you need to overwinter them.
If you want to know about local breeders (reg) pm me your area and I'll look some up for you.
-
i like the rare breeds but they are rare for a reason
Actually they're mostly rare because of fashion, which until recently among the commercial boys was for a Continental sire that produced a big carcase and early finishing lamb. After last Winter, though, local demand for the Charolais has plummeted - lambs too thin-skinned to cope with wet and cold weather. Similarly the Texel has a reputation for needing a high number of assisted births due to the lamb's short neck and big shoulders and the tilt of the ewe's pelvis. Early finishing generally goes with lots of creep - not at today's prices! Rare breeds were generally selectively bred over centuries to thrive in their locality, adapted not only to the weather and available grazing but the mineral content of the soil.
-
marches . not in my experience ,we started out with rare breeds but couldnt get them to pay. it costs the same to kill and butcher a 25kg rare breed lamb as a 45kg "fashionable" lamb . the heavyer rare breeds mostly run too fat( not wanted by butcher or consumer) . if there was a good return from them the fields would be full of them .
there is a job for any sheep on different farms/regions /types of ground
we have some pedigree charollais and agree they are a bit soft if the weather is bad but they have there good points .easy lambing and real sweet lamb
my easycares fatten of grass but these aint everyones cup of t either . if times are hard or i run out of grass etc i can run a trailer load to the mart and get a decent return. the times when i did that with the rare breeds came home near in tears
-
I must admit the easycare do seem to have a lot to recommend them (though I don't know how much I'd have to pay for them yet). They are big to handle, but on the other hand, I won't have to shear them (which I found backbreaking even with little shetlands).
If they are bred from wiltshire/welsh mountain on anglesea, I guess they should be suited to wales OK (albeit south wales), although the 'reviews' i've seen are from big farmers probably with relatively well maintained grass. I'm wondering if they'll be selectively grazing the grass more than something like the shetlands (which I'm thinking have a broader, goatlike browse?)?
-
Soay????
We are in Powys, at about 800ft.
Our little flock have so far :fc: been trouble free. We do vaccinate and treat preventatively for fly strike etc. but as first time sheep keepers have found them relatively easy to care for. No shearing, no help needed with lambing or mothering and no foot problems .... though of course we keep a careful eye on all these.
Our fencing is good but they have made no real attempts to escape and trained easily to the bucket.
They seem to do well on our grazing .... which is probably not the best and love "browsing" hedges.
Not ready to go until about 18 months .... so not a commercial option .... depends how important that side is.
-
If in wales, highly recommend you look at the Lleyns - I have them and shetlands (by the way my shetlands have plenty of grass have never left my holding but think its their god-given right to walk up and down and along my devon banks ad pretty much go where they please).
lleys are highly maternal, easy lambing, fairly commercial both for selling livestock and for meat trade. Wool is good as well. Pretty heads and not too fiesty.
-
I've just been reading up on hebs, soays, borays(sp?) and comparing to the shetlands I know. The minimal shearing does appeal, and so does their 'conservation grazing'. And there are some soay for sale nearby :) .
Still can't make up my mind - I keep switching between practical (easycare) and the rough grazing, nice meat 'primitives'
At this rate I'll end up with two flocks, but that just makes more work.
In the short term I may end up getting a couple of whichever I can find quickly for Elfie.
Lleyns: OK I'll have a read up on them...
-
Go for a hill breed and then cross with a good terminal sire, you'll have hardy mums and great lambs!
-
OK, 'hill breed' is a bit general for me, and 'terminal sire' is a bit technical for my limited understanding ;D , but I guess it's like when I put my shetlands to a jacobs tup when I first got them, and the resulting lamb made a good weight for a shetland ewe.
I still like the idea of easycare (mostly because of the no shearing, and that they can make money if that's required). I've got some prices from a breeder in aberystwyth but it may not be quick to sort.
Trouble is I still like the primitives and I'm still going to have Elfie anyway, so I'm thinking of getting a companion for Elfie in the next day or so, but not to breed from, but then get a proper breeding flock in the near future when I've done a bit more research into what I want.
cheers for the suggestions
-
marches . not in my experience ,we started out with rare breeds but couldnt get them to pay. it costs the same to kill and butcher a 25kg rare breed lamb as a 45kg "fashionable" lamb . the heavyer rare breeds mostly run too fat( not wanted by butcher or consumer) . if there was a good return from them the fields would be full of them .
there is a job for any sheep on different farms/regions /types of ground
Oddly my original business idea was to run several nucleus flocks of the most popular rare breeds and then sell them as such.
Oddly that idea went out of the window when:
a) I read a billion sob stories on here/other places about lambing problems etc in some of the ones I was considering
b) I saw how much primitives go for at market - because thats always your emergency back up plan (£5 a head for shetlands, anyone?)
c) I wanted a life.
Easycare for me, thanks.
-
Welsh mountain sheep is an example of what I meant and maybe a charollais as a terminal sire... I used dorsets and texels on mine with great success but with the texels I knew the line I was breeding from to avoid problems!
-
Llyens every time. I'm at 1000ft on the Welsh Borders and they do very well here.
<a href="http://s62.photobucket.com/user/castlefarmpoultry/media/The%20Farm/100_1977.jpg.html" target="_blank"><img src="http://i62.photobucket.com/albums/h117/castlefarmpoultry/The%20Farm/100_1977.jpg" border="0" alt="Lleyn Sheep. photo 100_1977.jpg"/></a>
-
still leaning in the easycare direction ATM, though I've found a neighbour with dorset downs (mostly DD, but with a bit of other breeds), though they seem like a serious commercial breed and while docile, not necessarily easy.
Are easycare docile? or more 'hill breed' wild? (starting to get a feel for the terminology I think :) )
AS for llyens - I'm still a bit vague as to what they're like; both the NSA breeds and the lleyn sheep society websites are a bit short of details.
(thanks eveyrone :thumbsup: i'm beginning to feel like I can make an intelligent choice rather than pot luck).
-
Lleyns are delightful sheep, generally just get on with the job, very milky, easy lambing, good feet. They're even pretty! Crossed with a Texel or similar you get a good commercial fat lamb. The pure Lleyn is an ok fat lamb - not laughable but won't have the conformation buyers really want these days. However, in your area there will be a lot of Lleyns so the buyers will be more used to them than they are up here.
The only criticism of them is that they are very likely to have multiples - triplets and more - and unless you have really good ground even the very milky Lleyn may struggle to rear 3 or 4.
-
Hi, This is our fourth season keeping sheep and we have gone with Wiltshire Horn. So far no trouble at all. No shearing needed, they train to the bucket easily and are therefor easy to move about the holding.
With three seasons of lambing under our belts we have not had to intervene in one birth yet and the mothers seem to be good mothers. As for the carcass produced it seems fine to me and sure does taste good as both lamb and mutton.
As for selling I was speaking to a fellow Wiltshire owner only today and he has recently sold at the market for around the £70 mark.
Most importantly get a breed that you like looking at every day as they are addictive!!
Good luck, will be interested to hear what you end up with.
Fishy.
-
well having though about it a bit more, there are lleyns available nearby, but they still lose out (on paper at least) to easycare.
The wiltshire horn as shedding sheep scores a lot of points but they seem to be a bit thin on the ground in these parts in my search for local breeders / sales.
I've talked to an easycare breeder and got prices - not cheap: 60 for brokers, 100 for ewe lambs, and 120/130 for ewes (forget the term) but I think he meant they're read to go, though he's not quite as local as I'd like, and if I want to build up an easycare flock I'll need to use and easycare tup (though maybe could use wiltshre if I can find one).
-
Black Welsh Mountain for easy to keep, hardy, good milky mothers, will eat anything, very tasty to eat, handsome to look at sheep. And there are plenty available in Wales. You could also cross them with a beefier meat breed ram if you needed bigger lambs.
Otherwise I'd go with Lleyn, or easy care.
Whatever you pick, try to get some from someone who has similar land to you, that way you know that they will do well at your place.
-
To those who said there is a difference between 'tasty' and 'commercial' meat... I take slight umbridge at that- all of our lambs are commercial type- mainly Texel x with a bit of suffolk, hampshire and charolais mixed in, and the meat is fantastic. They finish quickly, are lean, easy to keep, are reasonably easy to keep in a field and the carcass is great.
Depending on numbers you want to get a breed that sells well at your local market- there's no point having say 30 rare breed sheep to find that you can't sell the surplus lambs at market once you've filled your freezer.
-
Taste is subjective obviously. Unless you've tasted every breed the I guess it's unfair to judge :).
I asked AH about flock numbers when you move and they said that they were linked to your CPH, so would change when you move. And that was wales-->wales. So do let us know what they say.
I guess you need to decide where you are going to sell your lamb(s). If you think your only outlet will be at a mart then that will influence your choice. If you can sell lamb boxes from the door (or from the abattoir), which is easy, then that opens up more choice.
-
talked to AH - your right Foobar :thumbsup: I do need a new number, though she did add that I don't need the flock no to buy & move the sheep - only when I need to order new tags, so I don't need to wait for the new no. to arrive (phew).
I guess I'm guilty of perpetuating the claim that rare breeds are tastyer without any personal experience - it's just that folks say how tasty their rare breeds are compared with supermarket meat - which we suppose to be commercial breed derived.
-
well having though about it a bit more, there are lleyns available nearby, but they still lose out (on paper at least) to easycare.
The wiltshire horn as shedding sheep scores a lot of points but they seem to be a bit thin on the ground in these parts in my search for local breeders / sales.
I've talked to an easycare breeder and got prices - not cheap: 60 for brokers, 100 for ewe lambs, and 120/130 for ewes (forget the term) but I think he meant they're read to go, though he's not quite as local as I'd like, and if I want to build up an easycare flock I'll need to use and easycare tup (though maybe could use wiltshre if I can find one).
That does sound slightly pricey - I'd want to pay £95 for fully recorded ewes.
Easycare tups ought to be fairly easy to find though - don't forget that the easycare breed soc has a very open mind on what constitutes an easycare, so you can look at other shedding rams - exlanas and so on...
You might have to travel a bit to get one, but its a trip worth making for the right ram.
If you are selling through the market - put your easycares to a terminal tup to get market lambs, put the best to an easycare ram to breed replacements.
-
I guess I'm guilty of perpetuating the claim that rare breeds are tastyer without any personal experience - it's just that folks say how tasty their rare breeds are compared with supermarket meat - which we suppose to be commercial breed derived.
We sell Texel-type and Charollais-type to the supermarkets and to our local butcher. We have tried it ourselves too. The Texel is cut-with-a-postcard tender but in my view a little light on flavour. The Charollais is sweet and succulent :yum:
I've eaten 24-month old Swaledale grass-fed wether and until I ate Castlemilk Moorit it was the best lamb / mutton I'd ever eaten.
I've also eaten old Swaley and old Swaley mule - both very tasty but being old gals, lots of yellow fat that needs dealt with and the meat needs long slow cooking with some moisture.
Our own Castlemilk Moorit wethers were very very different from any lamb/mutton I've ever eaten before. Very lean, incredibly tasty. Almost gamey, a bit reminiscent of venison. Has completely spoiled me for 'regular' lamb.
I am looking forward to trying my Shetland X lamb - but won't have any for the table for some months yet, as we'll be using the only male on some of the first-timers and the fleece sheep ;)
-
When we first acquired our Southdowns our (commercial) neighbour looked over the gate and said, "There maybe a reason why they're a rare breed." Nine years on I told him that we charged the society auction upset price for our breeding stock and he said, "Oooh." I agree it can be helpful to breed something that'll be recognised at the local market. Around here a Jacob crossed with a Down breed is known as a "farmer's cross," because the lamb is so sweet the farmer keeps them to eat for himself!
Lleyns were a failure for us. Ewes very nervous and defensive and sisappeared to the end of the field every time they spotted a human - much worse when they had lambs - and although they scanned with triplets and quads none ever managed to raise more than twins.
-
Lleyns were a failure for us. Ewes very nervous and defensive and sisappeared to the end of the field every time they spotted a human - much worse when they had lambs - and although they scanned with triplets and quads none ever managed to raise more than twins.
That's the final nail in the coffin for lleyns then, although I still don't know how flighty the easycare's are - are they easycatch?
-
The lack of wool makes them quite difficult to hang on to until you get the knack. I wouldn't say they are better or worse than any other sheep breed. Wilts Horns can be a bugger though - although plenty of people on here seem to have no problem with theirs.
I haven't noticed my Lleyns being particularly flighty - and the key to not getting loads of multiples with them in my experience is not to flush them. I get the odd ewe with quads, but in general my Lleyns tend to lamb at about 180%,
-
I had 20 Lleyns and they were on the same grazing as our 180% Southdowns and £160% Badger Faces and averaged around 280% - more in their second lambing. Didn't overfeed them either. We had a couple that prolapsed very late and dramatically and the vet was (expensively) involved - said they were in perfect condition for lambing.
-
Hmmm...might be because I bought full-mouthed ewes then, maybe. Does lambing percentage drop off with age?
Those lambing percentages sound like what you'd get out of Highlanders that hadn't been negative flushed.
-
Lleyn is an improved hill sheep---it doesn't want messing around with. Stick it in a field with a bit of grass and leave it alone. It will then scan at 180/200% and wean 160/180% IF you leave it alone
Most problems with sheep are caused by people interfering---particularly at lambing, idiot shepherds who just can't but help stick their arm in a ewe when she is best left alone (rant over---for now)
-
What's more (2nd part of rant coming so watch out---)
When you are choosing a sheep to keep the breed of sheep you chose will be less important than where/who you get them from
There are lleyn flocks bred and fed indoors on high protein diets that have never had any selection applied for feet/prolapse/fecundity etc and they will deliver you all sorts of problems ---there are also Lleyns flocks that have had all the work/trouble bred out of them by thrifty farmers
Buy the first type and suffer the consequences
If you want good/functional sheep of any breed look for someone who doesn't show them and culls hard
-
Sorry if I confused you about the flock number, we moved ours but maybe it is different in Scotland.
-
What's more (2nd part of rant coming so watch out---)
When you are choosing a sheep to keep the breed of sheep you chose will be less important than where/who you get them from
There are lleyn flocks bred and fed indoors on high protein diets that have never had any selection applied for feet/prolapse/fecundity etc and they will deliver you all sorts of problems ---there are also Lleyns flocks that have had all the work/trouble bred out of them by thrifty farmers
Buy the first type and suffer the consequences
If you want good/functional sheep of any breed look for someone who doesn't show them and culls hard
I knew there was a reason...
In my mind....flushing...sounds expensive - don't think I'll bother, just keep em on short grass and see what happens....
I even managed to kick the dreaded lick bucket habit for most of the summer this year....
-
no worries MH, I was going to check at some point anyway - I was asking in case I found some sheep over the BH weekend.
going to see some easycares tomorrow (the expensive ones) but I suspect I'll have to travel some distance to get them cheaper, and for a small number that may not be economic.
-
We keep Lleyn 185% don't flush don't hard feed don't keep indoors not trouble free but good efficient grazers and wouldn't change them
although he has just bought me 3 Jacob ewe lambs for my big b'day pressie as when we first had them yrs ago it was absolutely the best meat..... :sunshine:
-
It's the shepharding that makes the sheep flighty, not the breed.
-
It's the shepharding that makes the sheep flighty, not the breed.
I totally agree with you! I've had manx, castlemilks and black welsh... All very easy to handle, and not escape artists or jumpers at all not to mention how low maintenance they are!
-
Hmmm...
Well, my lot are all reasonable to silly tame, but they still escape if there's a reason.
"A reason", apparently, can be that they hear me and want to come and meet me. ::) Which is a shame, as I can't keep them in an otherwise extremely suitable roadside paddock. ::)
-
It's the shepharding that makes the sheep flighty, not the breed.
I totally agree with you! I've had manx, castlemilks and black welsh... All very easy to handle, and not escape artists or jumpers at all not to mention how low maintenance they are!
hope so - certainly my shetlands were/is fairly docile - I've just agreed to take 4 easycares from a huge flock and they didn't seem very tame - don't know if I'll make much of an impression on them but maybe their lambs will be tamer. :fc: