The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: mab on August 21, 2013, 07:45:26 pm
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hello everyone,
one of my two shetlands has stopped eating; I noticed yesterday that she seemed to be sitting down a lot and not chewing cud or eating, then yesterday eve when I came out with the usual small amount of ewe-nuts she only ate a little and then stood with a 'look' which, on the dog, I would have interpreted as the 'I want to throw up' face. Otherwise she looks OK - no scouring, no sign of flystike, etc, just not eating.
this morning she was just standing and not eating - sometimes moving a short distance - didn't sit down once all morning - Time to talk to the vet (midmorning); well he gave me a couple of injections for her (metacam), one for today and one for Saturday.
didn't look good when i came back with the meds - she just stood there and let me approach and give her the injection - not at all her usual flighty self. But having done that she has perked up a bit and is moving about a bit more and sitting down again.
Once she'd perked up I looked at her teeth as per vets instructions (which was not so easy as she'd started moving away from me again) - can't see anything wrong and doesn't react when prodding her cheeks - so am not sure if vet is right with his teeth problem theory.
other factors to consider: she had access to some oak logs which might have had 'young' acorns on them yesterday/ day before - but that might be a red-herring. I did find in the shelter a 'grassy' lump that looked as though it might've been regurgitated - it smelled of sheep pee - though it may just have been pee'd on.
any suggestions?
oh, I picked up a sachet of 'rumen stimulant' but I don't think she's going to take it voluntarily - any advice on 'drenching' (I've never done this before - though I've just looked at a couple of u-toob vids, they're not filling me with confidence)?
thx
marcus
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Could be anything ??? every one should buy a simple digital thermometer, if your sheep has a fever then it may need antibiotics or if sub normal, all information for a vet . Dosing is easy so don't panic a gun or narrow necked bottle or the syringe from a lamb stomach tube will work , into the side of the mouth on top of the tongue and pour or squeeze slowly so she has time to swollow , if she starts coughing stop give her time and then begin again
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Agree that a plastic syringe is the easiest way to drench if you don't have a drenching gun. Get someone to hold her for you or tie her up with a halter so you have both hands free - one to hold her head and the other to insert the syringe to her mouth. Hope she picks up soon :hshoe:
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Thanks for that; got the syring - i'll give it a try. I have managed to get her to eat a tiny amount of the powder mixed with a little ewe-nut-dust.
she does seem a bit more perky again but wondering how much of that is the short-term effect of the jab.
:fc:
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Have you weaned lambs off her recently-mastitis?
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Metacam is a pain killer and anti inflamatory , so you may be right ,time will tell
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I would have given her a vitB injection (like Combivit) - it acts as a stimulant for appetite and would safeguard against possible CCN (although if she had that she would be dead by now). You can get Combivit from the merchants, about 5ml into the muscle.
It has worked very well for me this summer with a couple of goats (milkers) that stopped eating their concentrate.
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I'm betting 'gut-rot' from the acorns.
Is she bloated?
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We had a lamb off colour a few weeks ago. Just not eating. It took 2 lots of antibiotic injections before it picked up. Fine now.
I had rumen stimulant which I fed with a syringe. You need to make sure it has fluids.
My sheep book suggests ivy or willow as an appetite stimulant.
Good luck
Joanne xxxxx
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Have you weaned lambs off her recently-mastitis?
no, it's a couple of years since her last lamb - she has a lump in her udder from then so I don't breed from her.
I'm betting 'gut-rot' from the acorns.
Is she bloated?
That is my guess - she doesn't really look bigger than normal, but considering she probably hasn't eaten in 24hrs +, I'd expect her to look thinner. It would also explain her reluctance to sit down (although, I would've expected scouring). I should add that she has a history of eating fallen acorns (though never enough to make her ill), but when I let her near the logs I didn't think about acorns - didn't see any - and just supposed she was after the green ivy (I was focused on clearing the road where the oak had fallen) - now feeling like a bit of an eejit :( .
Oh, JMB, you posed whilst I was typing!
We had a lamb off colour a few weeks ago. Just not eating. It took 2 lots of antibiotic injections before it picked up. Fine now.
I had rumen stimulant which I fed with a syringe. You need to make sure it has fluids.
My sheep book suggests ivy or willow as an appetite stimulant.
Good luck
Joanne xxxxx
I have seen her standing over the water bucket several times today, and with drips on her chin, so I think she is drinking. I'll offer her some ivy &willow tomorrow (oak free).
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Well she's a bit more perky today - so much so I can't get hold of her ;D - but I'm still not seeing her eating, and she's still standing around a lot.
I did wonder about vitamin jabs /antibiotics but thought the vets would've suggested them if appropriate - am wondering if this vet is on the ball or waiting for me to bring the sheep in for a consultation fee (though, to be fair, they may not be able to advise more without seeing the sheep themselves)
Well I'll try & corral her again in an hour to give her more rumen stimulant.
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If you get her in, check her temperature.
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I had my digital probe thermometer handy earlier - but didn't get hold of her.
trouble is my usual method of confining them is to entice them in with ewe-nuts; but it doesn't work as well when they're off their food ::) ....
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At last! (she's moving faster than earlier, but managed to corner her)
temp 39°C which I think is normal? (my sheep deseases book doesn't give a temp for adult sheep - only lambs).
ivy / willow (and ewe nuts) not enticing her - is it worth trying apple/ carrot?
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Try an apple - my sheep love apples. Hope she gets better soon :)
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My experience is that sheep or goats will eat a couple of strands of ivy (no more) when they won't eat anything else. And getting them eating again is critical.
Cream crackers, digestive biscuits......l
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no luck with the apple/carrots. and she didn't try the ewe nuts today.
she does drink the rumen stimulant (smells a bit appley). once the syring is in her mouth she seems to suck on it quite happyly. I'll keep going with that tomorrow and try to persuade her to eat a bit of something (i've got cream crackers - i'll give 'em a go).
still nothing from the rear end though, and she still spends a lot of time standing rather than sitting/lying, even though she's moving around more.
(thanks to everyone for the help BTW)
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Is her rumen working? Can you see the rumen wave and hear her belch?
If not, is it worth doing the live yoghurt, oil, ginger & bicarb thing?
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Fingers crossed she improves and you witness some 'functions'. So hard watching and waiting.
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Is her rumen working? Can you see the rumen wave and hear her belch?
If not, is it worth doing the live yoghurt, oil, ginger & bicarb thing?
I don't know TBH - she breaths quite heavily (not unusual in warm weather but she is breathing heavier than I would consider normal ATM), and I don't know what the rumen wave looks like (pause for a quick google). not much the wiser - So should she belch at a regular interval?
i did hear what seemed to be a belch shortly after one of my rumen-stimulant squirts. I'm planning to continue with the RS but I'd like to know more about the live yoghurt' thing - I assume it's a diy version of the RS?
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update,
well I got her to eat about 1/5 of a cream cracker, and a tiny sliver of apple this am along with some more RS, but didn't witness any belches or other bodily functions except breathing :-\ . Have watched the other (happy) ewe but couldn't see much through her breathing (& trying to get her chin rubbed) so am still not sure what a rumen wave might look like.
she's still on her feet (only rarely sitting - last observed sitting 12.30 am) & starting to look a little hollow around the kidneys.
temperature still seems normal, but her nose seems a bit drippy this morning.
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Marcus,
When I am petting mine they often belch, although not always audible, but I do get a wiff of chewed grass like old cabbages, I guess thats their rumen working. Do you get anything like that?
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Do you have any molasses or treacle? If so it would be worth dribbling a bit over some ewe nuts (or anything else, biscuits etc) and see if she will eat those. Often the sweet taste will encourage them to eat it. Also the sugar will provide energy.
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no i didn't get anything like a belch from her this morning - but I'll keep listening.
I did get a mollasses lick for her day before yesterday which she did lick a little. But I'll try using treacle on some ewe nuts, crackers, etc (why didn't I think of that ::) ), as she's only eating bits ATM when i put them in her mouth.
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Have you got some twin lamb drench or similar? It does provide energy and may just get her some appetite again if there are no other signs of illness. If she doesn't get anything into her she will keel over very soon.
When my goats get fussy about their concentrate I drench quickly with Ceto-phyton, just so they don't get into the ketosis state, and also always inject with combivit or similar. Has worked well.
How old is your girl? If she hasn't lambed recently and is older it may just be her time...
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Hi mab :wave:
poor Estell :sheep:
It looks as though you have tried everything, I would offer her a few lose minerals - poorly sheep seek out natural substances to make themselves better.
-and how about getting hands on ,by giving her tummy a firm massage, animals often will "push back into pain" you may release some blockages that way!
hope she improves
Tilly
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no twin lamb drench - not had lambs for 2-3 years and no combivit either. Only thing I've got is tetroxyLA 200mg/ml oxytetracyclene, unused, which expired oct last year, which if I remember rightly is an injectable antibiotic.
she's not terribly old - 6, 7, maybe 8ish, I think. Didn't get a clear idea of her age when I got her.
I will try the massage - see how she responds - another good idea :thumbsup: [size=78%].[/size]
I've actually let her out as she was showing signs of wanting to leave her pen, so she's gone out into the field with Elfie (gave me a bit of a scare as when I came out to check on her 10mins later, I found her laying down, head down in the grass, but she was just catching some Zz's - shes standing again now).
I'll catch her again in an hour and see if she'll nibble something.
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Ruminants should have a regular action of the rumen erupting some gases. It's normally about every 30 seconds and usually results in a belch as Sally Bionic describes. In a short-coated animal you can see the muscular wave crossing the flanks; with a long-coated animal you should be able to feel it if you put your hand on their flanks behind the ribs. (Try it with a healthy individual first so you know what it should feel like.)
As to the yoghurt / oil / ginger / bicarb bloat remedy, it's a tried and trusted remedy for bloat in sheep, goats and cattle - see Toffee's story (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=26356.msg258002#msg258002) - but I can't see any reason to not try it when the rumen has stopped working for reasons other than bloat. You maybe don't need the oil if you aren't trying to control excess gas (which is what bloat is), but it won't do any harm. The yoghurt, ginger and bicarb should kick-start the rumen, hopefully :fc:
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Having quickly read Toffee's story: I've got everything except the yoghurt; maybe can get some tonight/tomorrw - and poss some twinlamb drench if farm supplies place is open tomorrow (need to stay in ATM - awaiting a delivery)
treacle, crackers, ginger, bicarb - what next? curry powder and coriander? Maybe I should just bring her into the kitchen and open the cupboards ;D
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treacle, crackers, ginger, bicarb - what next? curry powder and coriander? Maybe I should just bring her into the kitchen and open the cupboards ;D
Not such a daft idea - they generally know what they need! :D
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tried massage, and not yet provoked any emissions. she doesn't seem to like pressure underneath except right at the back when she appears to try to sit on my hands. massagin g the sides doesn't prompt any perceptible response.
having watched the other sheep closely I can now see what the wave should look like but am not seeing it on Estell.
she's salivating slightly - greyish drips on her chin.
been wondering about bloat or constipation and reading up a bit in my sheep diseases book, but am still guessing (and wondering where to find live yogurt - probably not at the 'local' shop).
she's due for her 2nd metacan jab tomorrow if she hangs on that long.
I've attached a couple of pics in case it looks like bloat to someone else
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Doesn't look like bloat to me.
I would get some antibiotics from the vet, either a long acting one or a course of jabs (3 days say). Has the vet seen her? And I think you are gonna have to pro actively/aggressively get food and fluids into her otherwise she'll just waste away and die pretty quickly.
Would it be worth considering liver fluke as a possible cause?
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no she's not been seen by a vet yet - the vet seemed to think it might not prove much unless we start on bloodtests, etc which would be expensive.
Would it be worth considering liver fluke as a possible cause?
I asked the vet that, (particularly as there haven't been given any fluke treatments/ preventatives - following vet advice at last worm count) but he though it unlikely.
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Ok, well I would defo ask for some antibiotics asap. They aren't going to make her any worse that's for sure :).
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hum..OK, (wonder if they're open tomorrow - I guess my out of date AB's are no good)
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What colour are her gums they should be pink not grey, grey means aenemic with fluke or worms or both as no1 suspect . Is she standing with her head through the gate because you are behind her or did she do this of her own accord , is her vision ok
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her gums, tongue & eyelids are black so can't tell 'colour'. I did try and look at other bits of her that aren't black, and, to my eye they don't look particularly aenemic (I looked up the symptoms in my book). Trouble is they're not bits of her I normally look at closely so I'm trying to compare with the other ewe who's got even less non-black bits.
She did put her head against the gate of her own accord, but put her head through when I was trying a massage. As far as I can tell her eyes are ok - she sees me coming and as I move around her eyeballs do follow my movements.
Actually, following foobars advice, I phoned the vets and luckily caught him before he left; I raised the fluke issue again, and after some discussion of symptoms since our last talk he agreed that a fluke treatment might be a good next step (one that does mature and immature flukes? - and do both sheep as a precaution). Also, as she hasn't eaten significantly, tomorrows metacam is being replaced with a steroid (Estell's not destined for the butcher). I'll collect the meds tomorrow am.
On a positive note, she seems to be taking an interest in the rumen stimulant and took quite a lot this time, even coming to meet me for the next syringfull and sucking it out of the end, though I persuaded her to take another 1/5 cracker and she then walked away from the RS.
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I hope Estell pulls through :fc: . If she will swallow and take the rumen stimulant, how about some willow leaves/coarse mix/porridge whizzed in a blender and syringed into her? A bit like soup for sheep. Or is that just a daft suggestion ??? ? I am being serious :( .
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well I don't have a blender (or porridge, or coarse mix) but I could grind up some ewe nuts and mix 'em in (I've already been adding treacle). Not daft at all I don't think.
And mush some apple.
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I'm dreading reading this thread every day. Feel so much for you and Estell. She looks so miserable in your pics :( . I do hope I never read the thing I'm anticipating. You're doing so well by her, I hope you get to the bottom of this and pull her through.
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I'm dreading coming out in the mornings but so far so good. :fc:
Well she's still going, and still taking very small bits of food.
had a quick trip to the vets this am (took 2 hrs :rant: [size=78%] -[/size][/size] stopped off for yogurt, diesel on the way back but seemed to have an exceptionally bad run of queues, tourists driving slowly, and old biddys having extended chats with their friends behind the till).[size=78%]
[/size]so this morning she's still standing / sitting and not keen on eating. I've just denched her for fluke, jabbed her with steroid and multivit (she really didn't like that), and got her to eat a couple of slivers of apple and a couple of syringes of RS.[size=78%]
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I think she might either be a bit older than your estimate or have been going downhill for a while. the tell is in the photos, I can see the whole spine and the muscle wastage either side of it. Have a little feel of her muscles either side of the spine, if they are concave she is losing muscle mass and this is probably old age. Even without her teeth she should be able to cope with that nice long grass you've put her on, so if she is losing condition this may just be her time, it's nothing you are doing wrong :hug:. She looks as if she was a nice strong ewe in her time, nice long straight back, gentle face too.
All this tlc will make her feel loved but I wouldn't let her go through the winter that thin unless you have a place she can be out of the weather. They can be thin like that for a long time and still cope but if she won't eat perhaps that's just her choice to make at this stage? Loss of appetite sometimes accompanies senility, my granny stopped eating towards the end and she was just very old and a bit dottled :( It may be natures way?
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silly question: what proportions do you use for yoghurt, ginger, oil, bicarb, water? tried to search past posts but kept getting posts in the recipe section.
I made up some at random guessing I don't want huge amounts of ginger (it is strong tasting stuff),but when I put the bicarb in it foamed up when stirred and ended up too foamy for the syring. Dog ate that batch.
tried again with less bicarb, added last, and minimally stirred. Estell has that one and the one after.
Hi Julie,Mmm.. I'm not sure; I'm not certain of her age, true, but my gut feeling is that it's not that.
She certainly doesn't seem senile - she's very alert and (now she's had the steroid & vits) is giving me the runaround - and her loss of appetite was sudden.
don't worry about the winter - if she gets that far - they have shelters and in winter I put straw in for them.
PS. she produced a few'pellets' today (looked normal) following the jabs - still looking for the wave (not given up yet)
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Yes, don't stir it with the bicarb in. You can massage her flanks and belly once she's had it. If that doesn't make her belch or fart I'd be wondering about a blockage.
I'm trying to remember what quantities I gave Tofffee. I guess about 4 parts yoghurt to 1 part sunflower oil. I gave him about 2 dessertspoons bicarb - but he was a 4-month old calf, so considerably bigger than your ewe. Just a bit of ginger chopped up - enough that would give it a gingery flavour but not blow the back of your head off.
Toffee had about 1L per feed, three feeds per day, as far as I recall.
You'll have read that the bicarb made him belch; when the belching left off I poured more water into him which reactivated the bicarb.
I guessed quantities, like you.
jaykay was one of the people whose information I had read up - if you feel you need a bit more guidance, I'd suggest sending her a PM and asking her advice.
Keeping my fingers :fc: for you and Estelle.
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umm looking less optimistic now - her temp has go up to 41°C and her breathing is becoming laboured, and shes drooling.
just giving her water ATM.
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Sounds like pneumonia , maybe she had sub clinical pneumonia or as a result of being poorly pneumonia is getting a hold
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Ewww, don't like the sound of that temp and the laboured breathing. It does sound like pneumonia, in which case she needs antibiotics, Tetroxy LA is good. But I'd speak to the vet to be honest, though if she were mine and I couldn't get to a vet til tomorrow, I'd give her the Tetroxy anyway.
And she needs food. By now I think I'd be drenching her with a mixture of mainly Readybrek with molasses/syrup added and live yoghurt/rumen starter too. Make it runny. Basically make up the runny Readybrek (with water) and then add a couple of tablespoons of live yoghurt and a couple of tablespoons of syrup to about a litre (it's not an exact science). Put it in something like a washing up liquid bottle. If you can enlarge the hole and add a piece of flexible tubing so much the better, but it will work with just the bottle without the lid - just messier.
Hold her head slightly up, (easiest to do it from behind, standing astride her, facing her head end), get the bottle into the gap between her front and back teeth, make sure you stop every mouthful so she can swallow, the last thing you need is her inhaling it.
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Earlier when she was moving around a lot I was trying to get as much into her as she would take, but thinngs went suddenly downhill after my last post - I went out to find her collapsed on her side, unable to rise.
made her as comfortable as I could while she panted, seemingly unable to raise her head.
After an hour she struggled to her feet (with help) and her breathing has eased slightly, but she's just moving around 1 or 2 steps at a time. her belly feels more bloated now - hence I'm wary of trying to force anything into her (though I keep offering water).
keeping a close eye on her but I'm thinking I may have to make an unpleasant decision if she goes downhill from here...
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If all you have is the tetroxy l a unopened even though its out of date , i'd consider giving her a massive 10 ml in total in 2or3 diifferent sites , sorry its not sounding good for her
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Alas, she just dropped and died (at least it was quick at the end).
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Of course, now I have to find a companion for my remaining sheep - she's not taking the absence of Estell well.
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Sorry Mab :hug: . At least you did all you could for Estell. Maybe it was just her time :'( . If I lived nearer you could have one of my girls as a companion but I guess I am too far away.
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Thanks bramblecot, I keep wondering if I made her worse by getting her to take more food (& steroids), though rationally I know if if she didn't eat soon she'd've died anyway.
Elfie (the other sheep) has settled a bit, but I'm still hearing the odd baa, and she's already jumped one stock fence she'd never jumped before when she went looking - I've a vague concern She'll find her way to one of the sheep neighbours before morning (or worse, hang herself on barbed wire if she tries a fence she can't clear).
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So sorry, but you have tried as best as you could. I think she will have had something underlying, and having stopped eating for more than two days would have taken a miracle to get her back to health...
Let's hope the other one is not going walk-abouts... and you should be able to get a couple of store lambs maybe quickly.. if you have sheep neighbours?
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Marcus, so sorry to hear that Estelle didn't make it but you did everything you could for her :bouquet:
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:hug: You really tried. It was her time. I hope you can find a companion for Elfie.
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Thanks everyone, for the advice & support with Estell.
well I've sent word out among the neighbours - meanwhile, Elfie's making do with equine company.
Now down to the practicalities - don't suppose there's much chance of a fallenstock place open on a bank holiday ::) .
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Now down to the practicalities - don't suppose there's much chance of a fallenstock place open on a bank holiday ::) .
I doubt it. The one at Lampeter (Douglas Bros) has an answerphone so you could leave a message. that may be the best you are going to get I think. I don't know if you have anyone nearer though.
If you want to try Douglas their number is 01570 422310
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So sorry hon. You did all you could :hug:
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Thanks - though I was lying awake last night thinking of what I could have tried/ should have done ::) too late now!
Thanks for that no. Bionic :thumbsup: ; the places I'd found no.s for were closed for the weekend (where are you supposed to find them in the yellow pgs anyway??), so I was surprised when I got an answer from Douglas, but they're coming tomorrow am, which is a relief - I was thinking she'd be here till Tues at the earliest.
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Well, if there is any good news in this its that they are coming tomorrow.
I know what you mean about trying to find someone. I looked in yellow pages too - nothing. In the end I phoned animal welfare in Carmarthen as they have an out of hours vet you can call and he gave me the phone number.
They were very good with my pig last Sat and the man and my OH dragged the pig to the lorry between them. I stayed out of the way. It isn't a nice time but you will feel a bit better when she has gone.