The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: lord flynn on August 09, 2013, 04:08:48 pm
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Ok, so I might be a bit grumpy as I am fed up of people asking for something for nothing. Especially animals. To do animals correctly costs time and money-why shouldn't that be reflected in the asking price? I realise that there'a a recession on but as rightly pointed out by another poster, if you can't afford to buy-how can you afford to get the vet out?
As I was told off for being against T&Cs. I removed this post from the 'Wanted Shetland Pony' ad in Marketplace.
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=36497.msg362199;boardseen#new (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=36497.msg362199;boardseen#new)
I dunno-not sure you can produce say a 4yo youngster and do it properly (chipped,worming, trimming, well handled, teeth and castration which is anything from £100-200 etc etc) for £300/400 and have it deemed over priced. I keep Native ponies (Exmoors) and buy them as weanlings for £125 chipped but completely feral and not castrated. Ponies done correctly, shouldn't be thought of as worthless merely because they are ponies.
I've also heard people moan about prices of more than £15 for POL chickens-if you breed chickens then you know how much feed you shovel into them to get them to that stage-especially purebreds that are POL later than hybrids. Not to mention the years put into breeding a line of anything and all the pitfalls along the way. I actually think Dobbies has a good case for selling them for what they do.
I've had a load of stuff for sale of late and ended up keeping half of it-just not worth my while selling it at the prices I've been offered (less than 50% in some cases, which is just rude-and I expect to haggle a bit!).
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Thats the problem with selling horses your Lordship. We know how much they cost to rear and have the value of that animal (or chicken) in our mind when we want to sell it.
With both these animals it's a buyers market and to be perfectly honest we took 5 months to find a good riding horse and tried 30 different ones, most were crap and not worth the time and petrol going to view them. The owners all had ideas of what the animal they were selling was worth and most of them were totally out of touch with prices today.
Sheltlands have had thier day I'm afraid. What you could expect 10 years ago for a well bred young pony is a very long way from what you will get today.
A neighbour who used to sell his filly foals at arond £1000 back then has stopped breeding as the money on them now is about £250 if your lucky and thats top quality animals
At one of the Brightwell sales a few months ago a nice little 4 year mare and colt foal made £50 and the auctioneer struggled to get that.
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, if you can't afford to buy-how can you afford to get the vet out?
As I was told off for being against T&Cs. I removed this post from the 'Wanted Shetland Pony' ad in Marketplace.
http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=36497.msg362199;boardseen#new (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=36497.msg362199;boardseen#new)
Once again your lordship, I will reiterate that, if you read my posts correctly, money is not an issue. I have given valid reasons for looking to rehome a shetland rather than buy one. This week I've had the vet and the farrier out to my miniature shetland. Somehow managed to afford that. I put an offer down on grazing land, somehow managed to afford that.
Get off your high horse and stop being so judgemental, Castle Farm is right, it takes a hell of a lot to find the right pony, I've just paid £90 for a vet's visit to a pony that's not even mine because it turns out it's a strangles carrier so I can't get it!!
It is unreasonable to expect to sell a shetland pony these days (particularly an unbroken one) for anything over £150. Add to that the petrol costs going to visit it, the vetting fees to get it checked, and then any tack or extras you need to get to suit that particular pony, you're looking at easily over £400 before you even begin.
I just cannot get over how unsupportive and cynical some people can be.
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Well this subject is jumping about a bit hay it takes all kinds of vegetables to make a pot is soup. Thainestone mart have a sale of horses etc and you will get a shetland pony there pretty cheep but God knows what it will be like, never mind about his lordship I sure he means no harm and is only concerned for the welfare of an animal wanted for free. You obviously are a responsible person and know what you are doing so I for one will pass on any information if I hear of a wee shetland free to a good home. We have a shetland was my daughter's first pony how many folks started the same way a complete gentleman and character she called him Bobby bingo! and our first venture into the eguine world.
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Leesey, this is generally a very supportive forum. I'm sorry to read these posts, we aren't really like that on here mostly. I can see Dan or Bloomer locking this thread next.
I hope you find a sheltie. My one regret is not getting myself a pony when I had the opportunity - plenty of land, two barns, a good job - unfortunately also a new husband who was frightened of horses, so I couldn't go to my dog shows and leave him to look after it. If I ever move from here for more land, or manage to buy some locally, guess what I'll be doing - same as you - offering a good home to a retired pony. Dan's idea of the £1 exchange is a good one though!
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I think it's very easy for people to jump in and condemn someone without having all the facts and information at hand (especially in the world of internet anonymity) heck, I've done it myself in the past, though hopefully not in such a personal or patronising way.
A little bit of tolerance goes a long way folks ;) :innocent:
Leesy, :bouquet: for you, from all us nicer TASers
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TBH I'd be happier gifting my pony to someone I knew would look after it than sell it to just anyone.
As Dan said on the other thread, we paid £1 for our Shetland to make a contract that included a clause that the person who sold him to us has first refusal if we ever can't keep him. We can afford to look after him but wouldn't have paid "real" money for him (although he is a wee sweetie).
I do read lots of scarey stories on FB about dogs especially but cats too FTGH ending up as dog fighting bait so I suppose it's a judgement call.
But let's try a bit of tolerance folks please.
Leesy, :bouquet: from me too.
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I am a great fan of Freecycle and Freegle where people give away items they no longer want, or request items that they need. All for free. I have furnished most of my house for nothing but the cost of diesel and I have also given away many things. The idea being to keep it all out of landfill. A lot of the items I now own, I really treasure, they are not new and shiny but have a history. Many people have things sitting around at home that they don't want, use or value and to have someone take it away, is reward enough.
I realise that livestock is slightly different but even so there must be people out there that have animals that they can no longer afford, or are not getting the time and attention they deserve, who would do better in a new and loving home.
Where is the harm in asking? It could be a happy solution for both parties.
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I will be totally honest that 'free to a good home' ads make me worried, but only because i know that locally there is a lot of illegal dog and cockerel fighting that takes place and as a result I would worry about where that free cockerel or free puppy/kitten might end up.
However, I offered 2 shetlands a home here on free loan and as with everything, the merits of the individual circumstances always need to be taken into account.
I hope you continue to post here Leesy, pretty much everyone is friendly, helpful and tolerant and it would be a shame to think that one post has put you off :(
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Add to that the petrol costs going to visit it, the vetting fees to get it checked, and then any tack or extras you need to get to suit that particular pony, you're looking at easily over £400 before you even begin.
I just cannot get over how unsupportive and cynical some people can be.
not cynical, practical and not sure why I should be supportive. still, I am in a tiny minority apparently and my perspective is obviously out of whack. Apologies for not understanding.
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Thank you to everyone that has posted.
Lord Flynn you might find that the very purpose of a forum is for people to chat and get advice and support from like-minded people. Thankfully I do feel my faith is restored by the responses given tonight.
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Thankfully I do feel my faith is restored by the responses given tonight.
:love:
*changing-my-name-to-Queen-Anne* - got the legs for it :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
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A number of the horses advertised as companion horses free to good home go direct to the meat man.
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*changing-my-name-to-Queen-Anne* - got the legs for it :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
[/quote
surely not doganjo!!!! :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
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my user name is our dog's nickname. he's a setter, very aristocratic.
I believe animals have a worth-or should do. free cycle is great for old sofas but not for ponies. Having a value gives them a better chance long term. Of course paying for something is no guarantee that someone will look after it but generally speaking, an animal of value would be worth more consideration to most that something they picked up for free in the local rag. A generalisation? maybe on a board like this, not so much elsewhere.
The horse market is dire atm, the welfare implications are massive with many people taking home ponies and no money to care for them. If people refuse to pay a reasonable price from good breeders, and god knows, noone expects the 'make' money on horses unless they are totally irresponsible in how they do it, then this market and bad breeding is self perpetuating.
the OP says this isn't the case and maybe its not, only have her word for it. I didn't state my POV well and I was out of order in starting this thread for that I apologise. However, not everyone on a forum exists to blow smoke up the backside of strangers when they disagree. I see many small native ponies used, abused and not have their needs met through lack of money and/or ignorance-have rescued one of them, its something I feel very strongly about because they are our heritage. That I don't apologise for.
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It is a very difficult situation, and I think one which is hard to discuss on a forum where some people know each other in person and some people don't, and it is easy to misunderstand someone's meaning when you can't hear tone of voice, see body language etc.
The horse market at the moment is dire. When I advertise a pony, I put on what I believe it is (or should be) worth, and then state quite clearly no offers. If someone isn't prepared to pay for the bloodlines, time effort, resources etc., then they can't have it. On the other hand, I have also given away a pony because she was needing a different home (she needed to be kept busy and I was pregnant with our first son).
On the other side of things, I recently paid a considerable amount of money for a Shetland pony, and I consider it money very well spent, even though it has meant going without various other things that would normally be considered more essential, he is for my two tiny sons, and he is a saint in pony form, as well as having superb conformation, which hopefully means we will have him for many, many years. I have also been given quality ponies in that past, because they were needing a different home or purpose, but I think this is much easier with people you know.
Good luck finding your new pony, leesey.
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Animals, like anything else are only worth what people will pay for them. Thats free-market capitalism for you.
Its tough when the market commands less than you'd like, but thats just life in stock production.
If shetland ponies aren't worth much, produce something that is. If you can't produce chickens and make a profit, dont do it.
We don't eat enough horse in this country anyway. :P
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An interesting thread.
The market place is flooded with all sorts of animals and livestock where a heck of a lot the breeders have caught a cold hoping to make money out of the creatures that they can't now sell or rehome cheaply .
I applaud your stance " M'lord" I'd hope to re home any excess stock I had with someone who I felt could afford to give it a good life .
There are lots & lots of animals coming on stream for a few pounds as breeders are still breeding their animals hoping for a show stopper ( and thus profits ) and the market to pick up for their rejects .
My wife & Munchkin are " Many Tears " animal rescue kennel helpers/dog walkers etc... the vast majority of the animals are kennel throw outs who have reached the end of their breeding life or are abandoned farmed dogs and cats chucked out when someone wants to go on holiday or abandoned sick in need of veterinary treatment .
My thoughts now run ( have done ever since I ran a small mammal farm ) ..... if you breed animals make sure you can handle the offspring financially and also everything that goes with it .
Sometimes it became a very very hard decision to cull excess stock and send the carcasses off for human consumption , pet food , bird food , to a zoo , for a breeding /species revival programme or maggot meat .
It made me realize that being a successful breeder of any stock or animal does have many far reaching responsibilities & consequences , some of which are not particularly pleasant.
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aw well here is ma tuppence worth :)
the country is awash with un wanted horses at the moment . couldnt count how many i have been offered for free in the last couple of years for my daughters especialy shetlands .my mate recently bought a bit of land which a guy was grazing shetlands on there was a bit of a stink as he had payed for the grazing for another couple of months, to save any grief my mate bought the 6 shetlands from the guy for the grand sum of £200( for all 6 )
if leesy is willing to give one a good home then hats of to her/him it will be one less unwanted /neglected horse .
to say something will be better looked after because it cost alot of money is rubbish .
i new a family in the borders who changed there dog more often than i changed my underpants some of them costing into the thousands the one that sticks in my mind was a british bull dog that was given away after a few months as she was sick of it snoring !! at the time it cost £1200 .i also no a guy who payed big money for pedigree texel sheep then lost interest there were sheep with strike and ones so lame they could hardly walk . he gave them away in the end
on the horse meat man side of things surley any animal which is unwanted whether it be a hen ,sheep ,pig or pony if its fit for consumption then it should go in the food chain . got to be better than it standing in some field neglected or shot and draged onto the knackers lorry
i could rant on but iam running out of beer but if i ever do get my girls a pony it probably will be a shetland will i pay for it.....neigh chance :horse: amen
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I do not sell ponies very often but I have bought a few, so as yearlings and my most expensive pony was £2000 which to my husband is a lot of money. Unfortunately ponies have been a bit like the south sea bubble and the unwise have bred thinking selling a foal is a way to make money, there are still a lot of foals going to be for sale this year.
A well mannered well trained pony with good confirmation will always sell and a nice Shetland that has been ridden, is good with children will be worth £600- 800 but you have to get to about 6 or 7 years, and one that will do well in the show ring ridden could make £1500-£2000. Just because the general horse market is poor do not think there is not a market for quality, nicely produced animals,
If you want to pay little or no money I can give you links to sites where you can get ponies for the cost of transport but they will be poorly put together, not wormed unhandled and will probably have a go at biting and kicking you. Like all livestock unless you are experienced and prepared to take a risk of the animal being diseased always buy from someone who has spent time and money on their stock you will pay more but far less than they cost to produce.
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I wish everyone who breeds dogs would listen to you. I have only ever bred a litter when I have at least as many, but preferable more, knowledgeable; homes lined up than expected pups. 7 litters in 30 years, two pure breeds. I bred when I wanted a new puppy, but only when I had enough buyers as well. Far too many people breeding in order to buy cars, holidays, new furniture etc without realizing/remembering/taking note that what they are producing lives at least 12 years and may change hands a number of times - if they are lucky and don't get lost in the meantime. :rant:
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I do not sell ponies very often but I have bought a few, so as yearlings and my most expensive pony was £2000 which to my husband is a lot of money. Unfortunately ponies have been a bit like the south sea bubble and the unwise have bred thinking selling a foal is a way to make money, there are still a lot of foals going to be for sale this year.
A well mannered well trained pony with good confirmation will always sell and a nice Shetland that has been ridden, is good with children will be worth £600- 800 but you have to get to about 6 or 7 years, and one that will do well in the show ring ridden could make £1500-£2000. Just because the general horse market is poor do not think there is not a market for quality, nicely produced animals,
If you want to pay little or no money I can give you links to sites where you can get ponies for the cost of transport but they will be poorly put together, not wormed unhandled and will probably have a go at biting and kicking you. Like all livestock unless you are experienced and prepared to take a risk of the animal being diseased always buy from someone who has spent time and money on their stock you will pay more but far less than they cost to produce.
My last horse (before the Shetland I currently own) was a youngster. We'll handled, attractive, and beautiful piebald markings. Lovely colt. Certainly didn't cost me over a thousand but yes he was more expensive to buy than a Shetland. I didn't pay through the nose for my current Shetland though and she has excellent breeding. I have avoided going to a dealer despite knowing he has Shetlands on offer, because I don't like the notion of en masse purchasing of horses without knowing their histories etc.
Once again, I'll add that I'm in no hurry to find one so I'm not going to go get something simply because it's cheap or free. If that was the case I'd have it already, I've made many enquiries!
My goal all along, which I stated in the first instance, was to rehome an animal that perhaps someone no longer has a use for or cannot keep anymore. I Said in my first post that long term loan would be fine. Plenty of people put ponies out on lt or even permanent loan.
It surprises me to find out that even Lord Flynn has rescued a Shetland... Was that one 'undervalued' too because it was a rescue?
Let me point out to anyone who's unaware of my background - I'm new to smallholding and chickens, which is why I joined the forum. But horses I know, and have done for two decades. Shetlands are new to me, I'll admit that, but as a mum I've had to change my views on the ideal horse! I love equines of all shapes and sizes, and consider none of them worthless. I hope that clarifies a few things :)
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It's interesting, when I read the post about the shetland originally I thought good luck to her, she'll be inundated with offers of free ponies because there are so many being given away ie dumped for various reasons from bad conformation and ill health, hidden or otherwise problems, financial hardship, marital breakup, kids losing interest.. but will likely pay ten times over for getting it to the point of health and work she might want for it. Takes all sorts, and if one of those thousands of unwanted animals gets a home half way better than what it has now, good. Hope she knows what she's looking at or she'll be fleeced by someone despite not paying a penny other than travel.
When I read LF's post, as a breeder, I agree that folk wanting something for nothing strike me as a dubious offer to even consider when it comes to livestock, and irresponsible, though desperate, to respond to. But if everyone felt that way then there would be no success stories so there's a place for optimists and desperation I guess. Some people are willing to take on the problem pony or dog or cat or cockerel, and make a go of it, some of those are experienced and competent to do so, some aren't and the animal is worse off with the do-gooder that isn't than with the meat man. I have taken on free ponies before and done extensive vet related work and personal behavioural rehab work with them and hope they all ended up better off for it, even the ones I subsequently loaned or sold on once suitable for a job clearly specified. One is still here that my vet at the time said only another vet or an idiot would take on - and I'm not a vet!
I would only give to someone I know and trust, and cannot comprehend putting a pony in a paper as free to good home, I'd rather have it pts than chuck it out in that way and hope for the best. And I have done exactly that, at my expense had a vet come out, a knacker lorry pick up and paid for what others might have dumped or sent to market or passed on as a freebie to avoid taking responsibility for.
I've taken them on, so I was that kind of person - but I couldn't honestly tell from the ad alone as written whether the poster was looking for a freebie, a genuinely experienced rescue/rehab home, or a well meaning but basically unknowing target for all kinds of con and offloading. Where shetlands are concerned I also had my doubts about the suitability of many potential free ponies for a. a job of work and/or b. a child to be around, and that raises further concerns that may be totally irrelevant if the shetland is simply a companion to live its days eating.
A redraft might be all it takes to bring the kind of animal being looked for, rather than the kind of throwaway owners a breeder would hate to think had ended up with any poor animal we had bred or cared for since birth. I don't think someone offering a home to an unwanted animal should be criticised, but nor do I think a breeder should be criticised for feeling protective of animals being handed over unwanted and in this society for many people to value anything, they have to have paid for it. Sometimes even then they don't if it's an animal, it's just an animal, an accessory to be changed seasonally and thrown in the bin like last years trendy handbag or shoes :(
Anyway, I don't have a shetland, never plan to have one, and don't need worry about the ad further than to say that a new member is unknown beyond the words they choose to use, so words need to be carefully picked to give a correct impression and I would say from the responses that they are perhaps a little ambiguous if there is such room for doubt, so perhaps just start over?
MTA cross posted with leesey and as this latest post is way clearer about her suitability as a home, it makes my point about the original ad not being clear enough. Sorry leesey, no criticism intended of you as a potential home at all, just the way you advertised sells you short. And the ad might bring you not just criticism from the likes of LF but a huge number of highly unsuitable ponies for your children, which you've already said you'll probably end up spending a fortune to back/school to the point of suitability anyway. I don't know what to suggest but hope you find the right pony and the right pony finds you.
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If you want to pay little or no money I can give you links to sites where you can get ponies for the cost of transport but they will be poorly put together, not wormed unhandled and will probably have a go at biting and kicking you. Like all livestock unless you are experienced and prepared to take a risk of the animal being diseased always buy from someone who has spent time and money on their stock you will pay more but far less than they cost to produce.
thankyou-well made points that I obviously failed to make. There's an old adage with horses -how do you make a million with horses? Start with 2 million! I wasn't talking about making money, god knows with all the effort and money put into them, even if you could sell a young (4yo) Shetland for £400 atm it wouldn't come close to 'making' money. Horse people know this and in times like these, its the middle and low end of the market that suffers-especially from a welfare POV. Responsible breeders have cut right back on breeding, ones with enough money aren't selling atm, they are keeping them, training them and selling them later as useful trained animals-they won't be making any money on them but it does give them a better chance in life. Ponies in particular get a rum deal IMO which is daft, surely a sound, well prepared kid friendly pony is worth its weight!
Other types of people continue to overbreed, they can sell them for next to nothing because they put so little in, even for less than meat they are making some sort of profit. Flooding the market with poor specimens, badly done and people taking them on exacerbates the market. Of course, by word of mouth there are nice ponies to be had-but IME they'll be for sale or loan.
(as for horse meat-well I agree with that! as long as its regulated I have no problem with it-better than than shipping these poorly bred native ponies live for salami in Italy).
I have two horses on 'free' loan-both with legal contracts on how the owners want them kept, one short term and one for as long as I want him. Loans can go wrong, horses can go missing but its up to the owners to check out loanees and keep tabs on their animals. It can work very well. If you sell you don't have to sell to just anyone, you can check them out and I personally woudnt ever gift a horse to anyone-loan yes, gift no. Oh, and first refusal contracts are worth nothing in court just fyi, it cannot be legally enforced if money has been exchanged or if no loan contract can be proved.
I don't breed horses, I don't even sell them to date. I do breed chickens in a very small way and so far all I've sold and all the cockerels I've rehomed I've known exactly where they are going. I've refused people who want to buy a single grower for example, or can't keep the breeds I have in the best way for them. When we move, spare cockerels will be run on and eaten.
I haven't rescued a shetland, I rescued an Exmoor from the sales ring, he wasn't free and was the going rate for a weanling. He's turned out very nice and I have high hope for him as a ride/drive pony for me. Even as an established ride/drive pony in a couple of years he'll not be worth more than 6/800 probably as they are an unfashionable breed and not for everyone. He'll not be for sale but I'd not give him away either.
The pony I have on long term loan went through various low end sales rings from weaning until 4yo and unfortunately it didnt do him any good character wise, meant that he'd never make a children's pony. But he somehow fell on his feet with his owner-and hopefully me, he's now 20. Exmoors are all undervalued, they are all awesome ;D
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Leesy, is there a Shetland Pony forum or Facebook group? There's one for Exmoors and Highlands I think-with maybe a little rewording you may well find what you want on such a site in time.
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I'm already on the Shetland group for Central Scotland on facebook, and a Shetland pony rescue group. Lovely groups, nothing that's been suitable. It's mostly miniatures that are around now, so I'll bide my time. This isn't the only place I've been looking, and plenty people have been in touch, just waiting to find the right one.
I've not had to reword anywhere else, so I'm happy just to let it lie, I'm not going to readvertise here, just keep at it through other networks and word of mouth. Thanks though!
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The title of this post was very misleading! lol
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The title of this post was very misleading! lol
:o ;D
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The title of this post was very misleading! lol
Took me a moment to realise, too! :roflanim:
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i'm rather confused as well by the title, but that's why I read it all. So the bottom has dropped out of the horse market so much that they are being collected for food? Same happens with unwanted cockerels. Free to good home is a bit of a cop-out. In our case it was £20 delivered to good home, no collections!
Had Cheval for dinner yesterday -over priced I thought considering the lack of taste. Beef is far better.
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i'm rather confused as well by the title, but that's why I read it all. So the bottom has dropped out of the horse market so much that they are being collected for food? Same happens with unwanted cockerels. Free to good home is a bit of a cop-out. In our case it was £20 delivered to good home, no collections!
Had Cheval for dinner yesterday -over priced I thought considering the lack of taste. Beef is far better.
I'm going to take this post as tongue in cheek and hope for the best!!! :)
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I'm going to take this post as tongue in cheek and hope for the best!!! (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Sometimes I put things on here that are mis understood or taken wrongly as I think fast and just put what I think in that moment.......
I keep seeing all sorts of pets for free, never sure if its a good idea or not although I did give a dog away to some one I thought was a good perspective owner, sadly they had him free then sold him.....I still wish I had kept him but my back was too bad to hold a very strong dog that was will ful!! I would never do that again, I would sell for a price and if they proved a good owner I would return the money for them to help with vet bills and feed. Money does not make people a good owner it just helps with the cost of keeping a pet!!
Hope things turn out fantastic for you :thumbsup: