The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Bumblebear on August 05, 2013, 11:23:52 am
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Jeez, after losing a weaner a fortnight ago the vet advised at thetimenot to vaccinate the other as she had been exposed and would prob now be immune or too weak to take the vac. Yesterday, lardy was looking distinctly stiff legged so I called the vet out immediately. She's had her pen shot and another due tomorrow, bit why is this happening?! We only keep pigs for 5 months of the year; their food is locked in a bin (no bird contamination that ive been reading about); they have plenty of rootling space and a clean ark. Why? Why? Why? I feel completely inadequate and if only I could understand why this was happening, it would go some way to making me feel a bit better. I'm so peed off I didnt send them both off last week too as no way can we afford yet another pig on top of fallen stock cost on top of vets fees for a third time....luckily ginger pig we bought in was vac'nated.
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ery is also known as east Anglian disease.
a friend phoned me her young stud / show boar had it luckily enough he was vaccinated so he is up an feeding normally today. she lives in Norfolk and said its rife around her atm.
we take no chances inject everything.
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I didn't know that Kja. :fc: we got to this one early enough. She's drinking a bit and nibbling a bit bit that grey cloud of doom is never far away. Why is it so rife, do you know?
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the weather conditions ie heat and humidity. the worst time of year is usually july - September.
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It's incredibly bad luck, but I don't think you'll ever get an answer as to why it's happening, or be able to do anything to prevent it. I see it is just one of those things. The main point is now you know what to look out for, and the instant you see that wobbling/weak back leg symptom, presume it's ery, ery-vaccinated or not, and just get a penicillin jab in as fast as you can. Oddly enough, I had a young gilt two weeks ago who was obviously unwell one random breakfast time. and when I finally managed to catch her and take her temperature it was 41 degrees - she had been quite symptomless the afternoon before. She too, like the three last year, was jabbed with penicillin within 2 hours of seeing the tell tale symptoms, and has recovered fully, as did the others. Even by tea time the same day she was zooming around like a completely healthy pig.
From my experience with my 4 weaners, there is no lasting effect, and it is completely curable as long as they are injected with the antibiotic fast enough, although I've read there can be long term consequences if you want to keep the pig for breeding - didn't apply to us. All three of mine who got it before continued to grow normally on to full size at slaughter time, no residual stiff joints or lack of mobility, and there really was nothing to tell by the end of their time that they had had it all.
You were very unlucky losing your first pig who got it, but that was undoubtedly due to inexperience - now fortunately you have the knowledge you need to act fast and keep on top of it. Don't despair too much - all livestock keeping is fraught with unexpected illnesses and problems, many with no explanation at all, however heartbreaking each one is to their owners.
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We've only had 1 episode of Eri in our 4 years of keeping weaners for the freezer. We kept 2 lots of pigs no probs, then last year our 3rd lot of pigs were AOK until 2 weeks before slaughter. It was July and the 1 pig, having been fine that morning, was just suddenly completely disinterested in food. When she failed to appear for morning breakfast (she had been out and about the previous evening, though not eating) we called the vet who came out. He clambered into the ark to have a good look at her and basically pronounced 'Eri' , gave pig 3 injections and then gve me 2 more injection pens to give to the pig the following day and day after. He said she will either come out of the ark tomorrow morning and be fine, or she will be dead.
She came out :thumbsup:
So, I quizzed the vet about why her and not the other 2, and he said it was all down to how 'stressed' the animal was. Maybe she was just a bit off colour which allowed her system to be open to the infection, while her sisters were fine. He said there was no point in vaccinating the other 2 at that stage. He said that the Eri bacteria reside in the soil for years and it really was a matter of luck if the pig came down with t or not. Obviously the more intensive systems, by definition, are more stressful for the animals therefore their potential infection chances rise.
Sorry to hear about your experience
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Ours got erysipelas three years ago when we moved our fatteners onto another field than before. It was not as dramatic as what's described here, though, no live or die situations, and no stiff legs either.
One morning one of the pigs was off its food and came to sit on my lap. So we took his temperature and called the vet (the first time we needed a vet), who declared straight away over the phone that it wouldn't be erysipelas even though he never asked about blobs on the skin or any other details :rant: The lesions appeared a few hours later and his junior vet came out who luckily had much more sense. Antibiotics and fever medication was administered straight away and he was back up on his trotters quite quickly, recovering within days. The other 4 weaners in the same field fell ill with the same all within days of each other, so all in all we spent two weeks monitoring temperatures and giving injections. So now when they arrive we vaccinate them (and always talk to the junior vet!).
The bacterium is presumably present in the local bird or fox population - in our case, both foxes and birds drink from the pigs' water, we can't help that. The vaccinations cost about thirty quid, I think, for both doses and each bottle contains enough for 20-odd pigs.
Update: I just read the other topic, just wanted to add that the lesions on our pigs were not diamond shaped or purple, just coin sized bumps. Bumblebear, next time a pig is ill, feel with your hands over its shoulders, back and sides for bumps, I felt them before I saw them, though they did become obvious afterwards. I have GOS, btw, not Berkshires, but the bumps kept the colour of the skin.
Good luck. :fc:
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Well she's certainly not bounding round the paddock but she is moving and eating a bit and drinking a bit. She has definitely lost a bit of condition and has had her 2 lots of pen. The vet also gave me some electrolytes; antacid and something else for her tummy as she started to eat grass and be sick. She looks better than the other one did at day 3 but I have to say any optimism I have is very cautious. :fc: Just gutting. Def be vaccinating next time. If there is a next time.
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Re. Eve's post and ery bumps - I have had slightly different symptoms with all 4 of mine who have been afflicted, other than the very high temp which they all had. The very first one, when I wasn't aware it had ery at all, definitely had raised bumps first, these became coloured and diamond shaped a day later. She was very stiff, lame and completely off her food. The second and third had high temps and coloured, but flat, lesions, but I think they were both jabbed early enough to avoid any other symptoms, and neither of these two went limp or off their food. The fourth one, from two weeks ago, was very lame, could hardly walk and had a very high temp, but no bumps or lesions at all, she was lying down and very easy to check properly (for once), and she too responded very quickly to penicillin. None of mine have been sick or eating grass. So it does seem to affect them in a variety of ways. As to being stressed, I can't think of anything stressful at all that happened to my three, then one, on the day they got it. It just seemed to arrive out of the blue. Hope yours continues to improve Bumblebear - do keep posting if they are any changes, for the better or worse. Very useful info to have.
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:wave: tamsaddle stress can be in the form of the hot humid weather ......... it can get the best of us down but it is enough to trigger a outbreak.
thankfully my friends pig is now up and running after 2 shots of anti b's she could not get near him for the 3rd :relief: she has now ordered a masterject.
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Same with ours, Tamsaddle, nothing I could think of that would have stressed them out, not even the weather (it was cool and raining as usual whilst we were quickly building a sickbed ::) ). My vote is on the fox passing germs on to the pigs, some of the foxes around here don't look too good.
Good luck to all these pigs :fc: Once yours are better again, Bumblebear, you'll be able to enjoy them :) :wave:
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She has been on antacids and is actually running out to eat now :) Well actually she gave me a scare earlier because when I gave them their feed she just stood there. My heart sank - especially as she had been eating fine - until I realised she was waiting for her melon treat, which she has been having whilst she was sick lol When she knew no treats were coming she went to her pig nuts.
Now it's just the fly struck lamb and the sick goat to deal with. When will it ever end!?
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She's poorly again! Seemed to get better then bang, off her food again and high temp again. Does ery keep giving "attacks"? This is so depressing for us and the poor pig :(
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how long was the course of anti b's she had ?
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Mine only got it one time.
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Two shots one day apart. This last time I've given her one shot a day for the last two days. Figure it isn't goi g to do any harm :(
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i think i have already said this but its best to give 2 shots a day for 3 days ery really needs to be hit hard to get on top of it. that friend of mine that had a boar go down around the same time did this he has not looked back and will be back in the show ring next month for his championship show.
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Is it too late to carry on now? Why didn't the vets leave us more then?! I thought they would know what to do :(
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Having read Bumblebear's other post about Streptacare, it does seem a complicated antibiotic to administer. Our vet gives us Betamox; with that you only need to do more than one injection site at a time if the dose is over 20 ml, ie. 200 kg bodyweight, but my pigs who got it were max. 30 kg weigh (requiring a 3 ml dose). I always ask for a whole bottle of antibiotic rather than single doses, just in case it, or something else, crops up again, or in another pig. You can use it for 28 days after first piercing the bottle lid. We gave ours two jabs in total, 48 hours apart, and that seemed to sort it out completely, with no recurrence of symptoms or high temperature. SO FAR AT LEAST !!!
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Thats what the vet left us Tamsaddle. She was eating and drinking and now off her food again but still peeing and we're still syringing electrolytes in her. She's not just laying there being compliant let me tell you - but its her breathing im worrying about. The whole thing is dragging on and it's really getting us down, never knowing if shes going to eat/drink/be dead when we see her. Then theres the fact that ginger pig is ready to go and I dont want ot send her by herself or leave black pig by herself :(
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Interesting that your pig has breathing problems - mine never had anything like that at all. It must be an awful worry for you, never knowing what you will find next time you see them. Do hope yours pulls through OK, can you leave the ginger pig for a bit longer so that they can go off together when you get to the end of your antibiotic withdrawal period?
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She died. We heard ginger pig chasing her, went outside and she was panting really heavily again; then had a fit and died.
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I'm so sorry for your loss :( :hug:
For what little it's worth, I don't think it's been purely ery, not with breathing difficulties :thinking: But I've not had a case of ery, so don't know for sure.
Hope things improve for you soon :-*
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So sorry, Ginger can go alone now though
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I agree with HH, don't think it was purely ery, perhaps a bit of pneumonia as well? My four who have had ery have never had any sort of breathing problems at all, just lameness/stiff back legs, off their food and very high temps, nor did any of them have a recurrence of any symptoms after their two antibiotic jabs and their temperature going back to normal. Nevertheless, I am so sorry about your loss, to have lost two to whatever it was is incredibly bad luck indeed. Just hope none of your other pigs get it :fc: :fc:
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Bumblebear, so sorry to hear that you have lost another one. You must be devastated :hug:
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We are completely done in. We've spoken to the vet to see if there is anything we could have/should have/shouldn't have done. Vet said that eri can cause lesions in the heart and it is that which causes the panting which causes a heart attack. She said in her experience seeing the lesions should be the first sign but in some cases (and black pigs) lesions can't be seen and it is the temp that alerts to eri. Which is what happened in our case. She says there is nothing we could have done differently, except of course to buy vaccinated stock next time, which we will absolutely be doing. Fallen stock have been and gone and now we have ginger pigs journey to plan. It will be bitter sweet tasting pork indeed this year.
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Even buying vaccinated stock isn't that straightforward, as they are not that easy to find. I have bought in 3 sets of 2-3 weaners this year; none of them were pre-vaccinated against ery, simply because where they came from there had never been any ery before. If you buy unvaccinated weaners at 8-9 weeks old, they will have missed the first jab at 6 weeks old which may be critically important. So in our case this year, we gave the bought in weaners their first jab at 10 weeks old, at the same time as our home bred ones were getting their second ery jab, and it was one of these pigs, a GOS gilt, who showed signs of succumbing to ery one week later at 11 weeks old. Thankfully she has fully recovered, but that first ery vaccination when she was 10 weeks old was obviously of no use at all in preventing the symptoms.
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Thanks tamsaddle, that's very interesting and enlightening. We got ginger pig from a petting zoo/meat producer who vaccinate all their pigs. They will be our first choice next year....if there is a next year.
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So sorry to hear you news hope ginger pig goes off ok. :fc: Your next ones will cause less stress for you.