The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: suziequeue on August 01, 2013, 06:19:01 pm
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My boy's spurs are damaging the hens now. I've just had one in sick bay with cuts and fitted her with a little canvas saddle but then noticed another of my good Marans sitting quietly and she has a big cut under her lef wing. I have dressed it with savlon cream and put her in isolation.
Any suggestions as to the best way to remove/clip his spurs?
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You can't remove them completely, but you can blunt them by clipping a small part off with dog toe nail clippers and then filing them blunt. wearing saddles is the best way.
Does he have enough ladies to 'entertain' or is he just picking his fav girls? You can keep them seperate physically - as in a run with in the run and rotate ladies round so they get a break.
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Are you running a cockerel with the hens in order to produce hatching eggs? If not, could you pen him separately and give them all a rest?
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I had the same problem with my old cockerel. He had large spurs and was damaging his ladies quite severely. I used the way described on youtube and I've put the link below.
Get someone to hold the cockerel. I wrapped him in a towel. The grip the spur with a pair of pliers. Then press down and turn (a bit like taking the lid off a childproof medicine bottle) until you feel it give. The outer keratin sheath will come off leaving a much smaller (and less damaging) spur. Dust this to stop bleeding (it will ooze for a while). When I did it there seemed to be no appreciable distress to the cockerel.
Removing Rooster Spurs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEJv4KvIog8#)
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I used the way described on youtube and I've put the link below
Removing Rooster Spurs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEJv4KvIog8#)
:o OMG really! I think this is a bit OTT it is the equivalent of ripping a finger/ toe nail clean off with pliers.
I'm sure clipping the spur back and filing as FF explains is much more appreciated by the cockerel.
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The best way is to wrap the legs up leaving just the spurs exposed, then getting a hot backed potato (microwaved works fine) put this on the spur for about 2 to 3 mins and then do the plier method. the outer layer comes off leaving a new smaller spur. there may be a tiny bit of blood although I had no blood at all and the old chap did not seem bothered at all.. he was back to business within a few minutes of being released. I had to do it as he actually damaged a cpl of hens so badly one day that one died! I would say not to leave it as it will only get worse!! Even when you cut them they will grow back!!
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id ask your vet for advice, im sure theres an acceptable way to trim them. its probably in the defra handbook for poultry.
we trimmed our cockeral's with dog claw trimmers on the morning of a show big mistake as it did bleed abit, even though we took only a little bit off.
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I have to say that the cockerel in the video is remarkably unperturbed so I'll try that method.
I wonder why the baked potato works so well. Does the heat soften the outer keratin coat I wonder. ???
I couldn't find anything about in of the .gov site or the poultry site. I expect for commercial chicken farmers cockerel spurs aren't an issue as they get slaughtered long before they are old enough to grow spurs :(
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Why not go the whole hog and trim their beaks and cut their combs off. I can't believe anyone would actually tear off a bird's spurs with a pair of pliers.
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I used the way described on youtube and I've put the link below
Removing Rooster Spurs (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EEJv4KvIog8#)
:o OMG really! I think this is a bit OTT it is the equivalent of ripping a finger/ toe nail clean off with pliers.
I'm sure clipping the spur back and filing as FF explains is much more appreciated by the cockerel.
I can understand the feeling that this seems possibly unpleasant, I too worried about this at first. However, my older cockerel had very badly damaged two of his girls and they all were developing lacerations on them. We increased the number of females available to him but it still happened. His spurs were very long and were split which I think was making them more damaging. I thought that this was an appropriate response and certainly with his shorter, smoother spurs he causes little or no damage to the females.
The spur itself is insensitive, it is the quick in the middle which is sensitive to pain. As long as you do not bend or twist the quick while you are doing this the cockerel will not be distressed.
My worry about clipping or filing is that the quick extends up to 2/3rds of the spur. If you clipped into this (or filed it) it would be very painful and also would bleed profusely as it is quite well supplied with blood vessels.
I haven't tried using the hot potato method. I can see that this may make removal easier by softening and loosening the spur. However, I was concerned that the cockerel has to be restrained a bit longer and the restraint is probably the worst thing from the cockerel's viewpoint. I also wondered if they may bleed a little more after heating as it might cause some local hyperaemia. Although the heating is supported in the poultrypedia site (see below) so I'd be keen to hear what people have found in doing this.
https://sites.google.com/a/poultrypedia.com/poultrypedia/home/rooster-spurs-trimming-and-removing (https://sites.google.com/a/poultrypedia.com/poultrypedia/home/rooster-spurs-trimming-and-removing)
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Yup the heating softens the outer layer and supposedly curbs the bleeding. When i did it the was almost no blood at all, so for me it workerd! I havent tried any other way. The heat also apparently stops any possible pain, although of course he will complain about being held still.
In my case his spurs had already damaged one girl so badly she died (despite treatment). And my birds are totally free range so the fact that they could get away from him didnt help! It was his last chance I either shortenned his spurs or shorton his body by a head! I am very fond of this particular bird so i decided to go for the first option and it worked very well... Especially for him, he's still with his ladies and everyone is happy!
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Again, I ask - if fertile eggs aren't wanted is it necessary to run the cockerel with the hens?
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Again, I ask - if fertile eggs aren't wanted is it necessary to run the cockerel with the hens?
I have them because I want the fertilized eggs. However, to answer your question, when the flock is free ranging they have other benefits as they act as a guard and defence. Ours sees off a local Goshawk and Kites. Additionally, in a thread here " (the benefts off having a cockerel with your hens ?http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=35562.15 (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?topic=35562.15)" many owners also think that they help flock behaviour and reduce fighting.
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id ask your vet for advice, im sure theres an acceptable way to trim them. its probably in the defra handbook for poultry.
Couldn't find anything on the DEFRA Poultry Site (but it's a maze ??? ).
Mentioned it to vet and she suggested culling the cockerel. It probably will come to that in the end because he is so big and heavy now...... but I need to focus more on the cockerel management side of things anyway as we have some cockerels from this year's clutches.... and it would be good to have an older cockerel to manage them in future.
Anyway we de-spurred the cockerel as suggested using some pliers. He was remarkably calm. His feet are covered in blue spray now and he is in the san for 48hrs feasting on mealworms.
They were needle sharp and an inch long. Two of my good hens have died as a result of injuries sustained by these spurs so I have no qualms about clipping them back :o
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Do let us know how he recovers! Hope it all goes as well as it did for mine! Did you heat them first?
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We didn't heat them first but I will do next time so that I can compare the two approaches. I have to say - just using the plier method was remarkably easy.
This morning I can hear him cock-a-doodling away in the workshop as normal. ::) ::)
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Hi,I shorten the spurs on mine using pliers too it is very easy and causes very little distress to the bird.
It sounds a lot worse than it actually is,you just grip the spur and give it a little wiggle and it literally falls of,there is no comparison between doing this and pulling your finger nail off as some one has suggested.
Graham.
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,there is no comparison between doing this and pulling your finger nail off as some one has suggested.
Graham.
Agreed - it certainly didn't feel anything like pulling a nail off - and he was not disturbed by the procedure :)
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I've had it with all this culling advice. It's lazy. I would have lost so many lovely and otherwise healthy birds too early had I given in to that advice I received for various reasons.
I trim my boy's spurs with a large file from OH's workshop until blunt (the spur ;) ). Should it bleed I use antiseptic spray. I tried the hot potato method but he was obviously in pain so not worth trying. :chook:
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Well he's back out with his girls now and I feel much happier that no more hens will have their backs and sides cut up. He's now a year old. I have fantasies about him being like the cockerel in Chicken Run. The girls really look up to him.
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does anyone know what the various breed standards are for cockeral spurs? it would be interesting to see whether the problem spurs are infact too big and can be reduced by selective breeding.
i realise turkeys wear jackets - is it the spurs specifically that damage the turkey hens or the claws in general?
i find this thread quite uncomfortable reading.
here is defras guidelines - see p12.
http://www.slideshare.net/kurdistanpost/defra-meat-chickens-breeding-welfare-code-standard (http://www.slideshare.net/kurdistanpost/defra-meat-chickens-breeding-welfare-code-standard)
it does actually states it should be done at a day old or reduced by selective breeding. i dont think culling is being lazy. i think culling and breeding only the best birds is a time consuming activity and far from being lazy. i cannot see how de-spurring is humane but i do see why it has been done, and in all probability is on the same level as tagging ears of other species.
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Sorry - tried that link and it took me to a slideshare site which just showed a paragraph about something to do with Ministers producing welfare codes. Was there anything else?
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Sorry - tried that link and it took me to a slideshare site which just showed a paragraph about something to do with Ministers producing welfare codes. Was there anything else?
its a booklet. click the down arrow until you get to page 12. i cant copy and paste it sorry.
we were given these books by seerad when we registered for livestock - we are in scotland but they follow defra guidelines.
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Its easily done at day old but i've done it in the past with adult birds when necessary.
If you can sufficiently blunt them and that works then al well and good.
If the spurs require serious work done then cauterising is the best method.
Not ideal but if prevents serious damage to the hens its worth it
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Thanks very much for this information. I used to use a bench grinder to sand the points off, but like the look of this, and the cockeral didn't seem too bothered - the reports of them being fine within hours are good enough for me.
What about showing birds - not something I've done - do they like them to be 'entire'?
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Its easily done at day old but i've done it in the past with adult birds when necessary.
Oh - as far as I can see, none of my male chicks have any spurs..... But maybe I am missing something.
Can you describe how I can do that in a day old chick? I would much rather de-spur them at a day old than wait until they are bigger and more difficult to handle.
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I've looked on Google for quite a while now but can't find a picture of a day old chicks foot! ::)
If you look very carefully both males and females have the Metatarsal spur, it may be very difficult to see in some breeds, I have done it with commercial layers and show bantams.
its just a tiny bump you probably wouldn't notice unless specifically looking for it
(http://urbanext.illinois.edu/eggs/images/feet1.gif)
We used a hot wire, basically it was a soldering iron with a very thin red hot wire and it was just touched onto the spur for a second to burn it away.
If any weren't burned properly the spurs still developed or half developed but it was rare to miss one.
Like the beak trimming, the chicks don't appear to show any sign of distress from this and carry on as normal.?
But ideally you need to be working with sex linked or sexed chicks.
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Cool. I'm definitely going to investigate this ready for next year. I guess I need to get good at sexing chicks!!..... or just do all of them on the basis that the intervention will be worthwhile in 50% of the clutch.
Do you sex the chicks first? Or just do all?
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The commercial ones were feather sexed or sex linked so easy to sex, males chicks are a different colour.
I vent sexed my own bantams
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I didn't think you could vent sex bantams 'cos they're so teeny!!
Anyway - I will certainly be researching the feather sexing technique.
Thanks
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Feather sexing is bred into the strains, i think its probably used mostly in commercials, i can't think of ever seeing it in pure breeds but it may be.
They could be done once they are older and you can see what sex they are or when the spurs start to grow but i've never done it with that age of bird, just day olds and older cocks.