The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: Zoobec on July 26, 2013, 03:02:33 pm
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I've just got 2 goat kids, Toggenburg/Saanan, they're 2 1/2 months old. I've had them 2 weeks. They were wormed with panacur before they left the breeder. One of them started scouring a week ago, so I called out the vet, who thought it may be the wormer or the change of environment and lush grass. the vet gave an injection of antibiotics in case of an infection and left electrolytes for me to give her, and took a fecal sample to test for worms etc. I've kept them off the grass, the scouring has stopped and it would seem shes pooing more normally, but its still dog poo like. Last night got a call from the vets to say she has or had high levels of coccidiosis in her fecal sample, and she would look into treatment options. I've only got the 2 goats. Looked on here and it would seem some people use vecoxan, sometimes Baycox. The vet receptionist called to say that they didn't have anything in suitable for treating just the 2 of them, but that the vet could come out and inject them with something on Monday. I'm unsure what to do, as I can get Baycox but looks like only on prescription and that would mean waiting for a delivery, and if the vet comes out then it will be another visit charge, when really they probably should have been treated for it as a matter of course last week. Anyone got any ideas as to the best course of action? Or advice as to where I can obtain a suitable treatment easily? Thanks!
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I have had goats for 40 years,and last year was the first time I went through the horror of this. I just bought the bottle, as as I had to repeat the dose, it soon went down. Please take action soon - I lost some of my AN kids, and one of the pygmy kids. Going through a large herd it takes a grip. They were the same age as yours, and it broke my heart, and that is why we have not bred this year - I needed time to get over the horror of what happened.
Is it not possible to take the kids to the vet, to save a call out? If they can jab them, it will help. Mine went downhill very fast, even after the treatment, although like I said it only affected some of them.
Fingers crossed for your little ones, but please , I will repeat, act quickly.
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What a horrible thing to find out. Hope you can get them treated and well soon. :hug:
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It's been a baptism of fire for me :( I feel like I'm having to spoon feed the vet info on drugs and I'm a complete beginner...
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Take them to the vets, just bung them in the back of the car (I didn't say that) with a blanket and maybe a piece of polythene/feed sack underneath them. It needs treating quickly and the injection is the fastest way. It can do permanent damage to the gut lining, and as Roxy says, if you don't get it sorted fast they can die.
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Stuck mine in the back of the pick up. In all honesty I thought the summer grass just gave them the squits. In fact, one showed no symptoms The speed at which it took hold was fast, so time is of the essence.
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I'm panicking somewhat now. The goats are fine apart from the dog poo like droppings, eating, drinking and very lively, I want the vet to come out, she says she won't till Monday and they'll be fine till then if there's no blood in the droppings. I've put my foot down and said I want them treated now, so she said she'll get injections ready for me to give them or I'll have to wait till Monday. Now I'm waiting for her to calculate the dosage and then I'm off to collect them to inject them myself tonight..... I really feel she should have treated them last Thursday on a "just in case" theory :(
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Doing the injections yourself is easy and by far the best option - wasn't sure if the vet was offering that.
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Just going to get the injections now, will they need follow up jabs?
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Possibly. I had two kids who had it very badly and they had another jag, three days later.
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Well they've both been jabbed now so I'm just hoping and praying that they will be ok
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You can buy Vecoxan at most Agricultural suppliers.................very useful to have in the First Aid cupboard anyway.
Time is of the essence with coccidiosis.......... the gut can become very damaged irreparably.
Kids should be treated routinely at around 4wks and then again at 7wks with Vecoxan. Baycox is excellent but is a different drug only available on prescription. Vecoxan does 'keep' in the fridge !
You will need to treat all goats on your property at this stage. The adults will be carrying larvae but they don't get so bad.
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We've just looked up the drug that the vet gave us was Panomec and when we've looked it up its a wormer/ lice treatment... I can't believe it :(
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You need a new vet, preferably a farm vet. Whereabouts are you?
For kids who actually have coccidiosis symptoms you need Baycox, it kills coccidia whereas vecoxan is a coccidiostat, ie stops them breeding, so the numbers don't build up, and you treat as Wystend describes, as a preventative.
Too late to do that once your kids are ill, so you need the prescription only drug and you can only get that from a vet. A farm vet will keep it. You might need to ring around and specifically ask for Baycox (tolrazuril).
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I know I need a new vet, they are diabolical. They are a farm vet which is the ridiculous thing! I am in Sheffield.
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That's crazy!
I forgot to say, the other coccidiocide (killer of coccidia) is intradine, which is what people used before Baycox. Baycox is the better drug, but if all someone has is intradine, that'll do the job.
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Thanks for that,will see what I can get hold of tomorrow
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What a waste of space your vet is :rant: A dreadful lack of care. You simply cannot delay with Coccidiosis. A stomach lining doesn't repair itself and the animals slowly starves to death. It's the most awful experience I've had. I'd complain about her once you've got this under control and I really pray you do. Our sheep's droppings were like water before we knew what we were dealing with. Eight died, two of which we had to help along as they were suffering so. It honestly doesn't sound like you've got to that stage but it progresses so fast it's terrifying. The sheep who survived it (with treatment-we used Vecoxan on EVERY lamb as soon as we knew it was cocci) are doing fine now though some have grown so slowly and some of this years lambs are overtaking them in size. Once you've had it, you'll always need to be vigilant so I've been watching this year's lot like a hawk.
Hope you catch it in time.
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Try contacting Heeley City Farm at Sheffield - they have goats and use their vet. They may also have some vecoxan you can buy from them??
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Thanks everyone! Just had a very sheepish visit from my vet with Intradine, both kids have had first dose of that and I've been left with another 4 days follow up jabs. I've asked for prescription of Baycox as although I can't get it locally I can order it online. One of the kids (or could be both i didnt see who did them) has done some lovely tiny droppings for me tonight :) I feel so exhausted with the stress of it all, its been a farce. Will contact heeley city farm and find out who they use :) I just hope they'll be ok. They're fine in themselves anyway.
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I have moved vets due to several disasters they had with my goats....the ones we have now have designated horse, small animal, and farm animal vets, and so far, I cannot fault their care. Unfortunately they are in Cheshire so not much use to you.
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Oh good, at least the kids have had what they need now! Did the vet realise they'd got it wrong then?
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The vet claimed that the panomec was given so that they would have some treatment yesterday as I had requested !?!? But if we hadn't looked up the panomec and discovered that its just a wormer I'm not sure what would have happened. We'd rung the practice to complain that my husband had made a 15 mile round trip to get some treatment and been given panomec. As they said they didn't have any baycox you would have hoped that the next port of call would be the intradine, it would seem that the senior vet suggested that after we complained about the wormer..... In my opinion it would seem that really the kids should have had some treatment for coccidiosis on the original call out over a week ago on the basis it could be that. These are my first goats and I trusted the vets decisions on the basis that they must know more than me, but me and my kids were let down and I'm just hoping and praying that they will be ok.
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This is such a basic error by the Vet/Practice that it calls into question their Duty of Care.
I would formally write a letter of complaint detailing dates/times of visits etc whilst it is fresh in your mind...............also send a copy to Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons.
The least the practice can do is not charge you for this fiasco.
I have had a similar experience with a local practice, tho not with Cocci...................which resulted in many exchanges of words, letters etc. My case was to do with Listeria & a request to put a goat down.
The newly qualified Vet refused to do so on the grounds that the goat was improving !!!!!! After 40 years of experience I knew this wasn't going to happen. Sufffice to say, the whole thing was a mess.
With the symptoms you had, be it lambs or kids, the first thing you do , is treat for Cocci...............standard practice.
Panomec, Panacur is not much use for goats anyway.............it goes thro the system without any effect.
As a point of info....................only use Ivermectin wormers on goats, this DOES work.
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Yes, I am going to complain in writing to them. I've already paid for the visit I had last week, but they aren't charging me for last nights visit or the drugs. But the money isn't the point it's the fact that my kids could be damaged long term or I could lose them by delayed treatment. I'm going to get a new vet, but I wouldn't want anyone else or their animals to suffer because of future errors that the current vet practice might make.....
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Good for you............
If you contact the Goat Veterinary Society & speak to the Secretary, he can advise which practise/vets are member of that Society.............at least this way, the vet/s in question are likely to have an interest in goats.
Just Google the GVS and their website will come up...................if you have problems, I have the number.
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When animals are ill, people trust their vet to make a diagnosis,and treat them, and hopefully make them better. In all my years of goat keeping,I have come to realise, that vets know very little about goats - and they have admitted this to me. I get the usual tale of this is not licensed on goats, but we use it on sheep ......but if there is no other option that has to do.
Last year,3 of my goat kids were booked in for disbudding. The vet did not weigh of them, but just jabbed them one after the other. They went under too fast - and I pointed this out. Having had goats for a long time, you do realise when something has gone wrong. The young vet(just out of vet school) yelled for another young vet, scooped up 3 by this time limp kids, who were struggling to breathe, and ran off upstairs. They only have two oxygen tents, so God knows what they did with the third. 20 minutes later I heard them bleat, and vet arived back with them.
Firstly she tried to say it was the goat kids at fault(!) then there was something wrong with the needle .....all three needles? The truth was she did not weigh my kids, and overdosed them.
One of the kids then was ill as a result of the vet drilling into its brain, and had it not been for me ringing Wytsend, and her advising me to ring the BGS vet, we would have lost that kid....the BGS vet kindly spoke with our vet, and told her what to give the goat (she was at a loss what to do).
I complained strongly to the owner of the practice and then moved my business elsewhere.
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Wytsend, Good idea about the goat veterinary society, I'll get on to that one. I don't want to be in a situation where I am not happy with the vets ability.
Roxy, what an awful time that must have been. All I can say is its a good job you knew something was wrong....
I'd like to thank everyone so much for your help, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it, especially with me being a complete newbie to the forum and to goat keeping. I've really felt so much better able to deal with the situation with your advice and hopefully my kids will be ok. It was so frustrating yesterday trying to get help for them, I felt like the vet was working against me not with me....
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Thats why I objct to having to use vets at all they do crap jobs,don't listen and then have the cheek to charge a fortune for OUR services!The disbudding thing is the biggest con out,prices jumped overnight when it became compulsonary to only use a vet or DIY,from £2.50 to £15 +VAT and in 15 yrs I rarely had a kid that didn't grow scurs or end up looking like a unicorn till I gave up wasting my money.Once a few years ago I "sold" my goats to another breeder so they could do it...out of 15 kids not one grew even the tiniest scure and had no after affects.
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Zoobec, I am shocked at the inefficiency of your vet. Why can they not admit if they don't know something and then seek advice?
I am fortunate that one of the vets at our practice is experienced with goats, so I always ask for him if I am worried. He'll give advice over the phone as well.
I hope your letter of complaint gets something done and that you manage to find a decent vet who's not too far from you.
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From memory, the secretary of Worcestershire goat society told us that the Chief Vet for the BGS has stated that any vet with insufficient experience in goat medicine or any needing extra input can, at any time, phone him for the most up to date information, research and advice. I have told my vet this before but to be fair (with the exception of severely messed up disbudding) our farm vets are very good and don't see goats as a variant of sheep so thats a result!
Am slightly concerned about the whole panacur debarcle though! what?!?! Panacur just has no place in goat keeping these days, even I know that one! we lost one of our goats and I do feel that he'd still be here had it been for a goat savvy vet.
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While I may moan about our vet from time to time, usually about money, but to be fair when we need him he's pretty good, he doesn't have a huge amount of experience with goats (not many do it appears) he'll go away and look up whatever we need him for and get back to us, better that than just guessing. Had to call him last night with a goat with suspected mastitis.
Hope you get this sorted out, for your own peace of mind, would you go to a doctor who didn't seem to know what they were doing?
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I am still on the hunt for a goat savvy vet, the goat veterinary society gave me a name of one but no telephone number, and I think he must not now be practicing because I can't find him on the Internet at all. I shan't be using the current vet again, just far too many basic errors and I have no faith in them whatsoever. They're almost useless.
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Yeh, I'd have lost faith too.
I'm lucky, my vets are really good, down to earth farm vets, and they regard it as their business to find out about goat stuff if they don't already know. They also seem to have a culture in the practice, of 'keeping learning', which I like too, so I feel I can trust them.
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Zoobec................ring GVS again and tell Nick Clayton that you were unable to make contact with the name he gave you, apart from anything else , he can update the records. But he will do whatever he can to put you in touch with somebody.
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Will ring Nick Clayton again, I'll leave it till tomorrow with today being Sunday... The others he had on his list were too far away :(