The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: kevkev57 on July 29, 2009, 07:47:36 am
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Now this is a whole big subject. I wanted to open up a discussion as to where you all are now, regarding ' self sufficiency '
Do you want it ? Is it actually achievable ? What are you doing to get there ?
Here are my thoughts.
Firstly I do not think 100% self sufficency is achievable, at least not for me. Life always boils down to some kind of compromise, does it not. If I can be happy in my attempts to consume less, spend less, and recycle more, then that is good enough for me. I would have reached my own level of incompetence so to speak.
Once I feel that I can do no more unless I become some kind of zealot, then I will stay at that level.
Being self sufficient for me is having the ability to rely as least as possible on the state as well as being self sufficent in food and heating. I have come to detest modern life and all its stupidity so much that I sometimes worry myself.
Of course this ' mend and make do ' culture is hardly new, although it is being marketed in some quarters as the new big deal. Times of war and economic depression always bring the best out of a human. I feel that people are being brought together here and there, to share and assist each other. That has to be a good thing.
So , your thoughts please !
Kevin
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We're not aiming to be self sufficient either - unless we can grow chocolate and red wine, it's simply not achievable.
Like you we want to be less reliant on the "big boys" - government, retailers etc - and help to reduce our impact on the planet.
Since we've decided to stay here for the foreseeable, we're looking at greening our electricity supply, space and water heating. We also need to look at rainwater collection and use. We've been holding off because I had itchy feet for a while.
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We are self sufficient in Water and Heating which is a great start.
Electricity is next - hopefully a man made water wheel first, then maybe a couple of windmills to service only our own supply, do not want to be attached to the grid - the idea is to be free from it!
I do make my own red wine, biscuits, bread, grow herbs and salad, but buy potatoes as they are so cheap at the moment, so whats the point in doing half an acre - I have four barrels of new potatoes which will be ready for harvest at Christmas :yum:
We have a lot of fruit - but not enough - want to build a greenhouse bigger than my 18 x 7 Oasis which is great, but want to have higher roof for fruit. Want Citrus, berries and cherries from Spain - :yum: :yum:
Don't like the idea of polytunnels - polythene anything gives me shudders after finding out about plastic water and juice bottles, cling film and other carcenogenic forming plastics - don't want to grow my food under it at all. ???
Joe built me a gazebo with plastic corrugated sheeting as a roof, and I think we could modify the idea and create another one as a greenhouse in the future. ;)
WE have built our own house - I mean from nails, planks and slates etc, not from a kit or by hiring workers - we did it all ourselves - Joe is very good with his hands and has done the electrics, plumbing, timberworks, roofing, and everything, it took us three months to build the shell, and we have done the rest when the money is available.
Last night we made the finishing touches to the kitchen - will try to post a picture later.
We have triple insulated floor - walls and ceilings, even internal walls and we have just purchased a little Range for our new kitchen - solid fuel hot water and seven radiators, small oven ideal for bread and a ring for casseroles or heating water - for less than most people pay out for a fill of their central heating oil.
This will give us bath water, heat from radiators, a small oven for our beloved home made bread, and free solid fuel heating forthe next 10 years at least - thats the guarantee on the stove, and we definitly have the timber!
We have achieved a lot but need to do a lot more. Thats why we are enjoying this site and talking to you all learning and swapping ideas all the time - its great, plus we can play games and solve all the worlds problems too - now what more could we ask for ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Julie
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I think we could all learn from people who lived before us - my Mum and Uncles used to tell me all about how they lived in the "lean war years". My granny did all her own baking, they had a little milk herd, keeping some milk back for the house, sheep and a pig for meat, they grew their own fruit and veg, and my Uncle had his own bees (and was allowed a sugar ration for them in the war). The farm work was all done by horses and horse drawn machinery ......they grew wheat, etc. T Clothes were made at home, and hand me downs for the kids.There were 5 of them, so times would be hard. It must have been hard work, but in a way, thats all they knew. It was the norm to grow their own food.
As for me, I have always wanted to be self sufficient. I do enjoy growing my own fruit and veg, have solid fuel fires with free wood from the fields, and would love to work a way of getting water from the river at the bottom of the fields for electricity. I have been down to look at a scheme nearby from the same river, and its generating enough power for a few houses.
At the moment there is not much chance of us being fully self sufficient. We have a massive mortgage on the farm, and it needs a lot of work to make it liveable in. So my partner works full time, and me part time. I also have a lot of native ponies, which we show and carriage drive. Obviously these are not cheap to run, but its something I enjoy, and I think its better for me than spending the money on cigarettes and being in the pub every night.
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Hello Kevin,
self sufficiency is really an impossibility. Degrees of it are however possible. I have met many people who have stated categorically that they were self sufficient , some have worn glasses , so I asked did you make them ? some had false teeth , same question ? most wore watches , so i asked did you make it ? even some who were very self sufficient wore clothes that they didn't make ie , normal shoes , trousers , shirts etc etc . Some also bought food such as salt , pepper , oils , mustard and so on . So self sufficiency is a myth and unattainable on the whole . My type of self sufficiency is to reduce my so called foot print on the planet as much as possible , yet still live in the modern world , to an extent !!!
I am prepared to go without many things that most people wouldn't dream of being without , and over time will go without even more . I to am so fed up with the strange way our lifestyle in this modern world has gone , that I want a simpler easier way of living . Slowly I am getting there , some things are a conscious decision to change , others are by arrived at by action ie , do this and it changes that !!! I am getting nearer the point where I will be in my timber framed house with wattle and daub infill panels , thatched roof , all from the land or nearby , and with windows from old glazing and all hinges etc made from recycled metal . A more or less free house , that along with free food for me and any animals and free clothing , grown or reared on site , free heating , all supplied onsite or once again nearby, ie I can grow willow on loads of different waste areas that belong to other people , the same with small amounts of wheat , or norfolk reed for thatch etc.
I obtain as much scrap metal from cars and the like , as I want or need , and this metal can supply all my needs for making all things metal. Wood I can get from my land and others close by , to make all my own furniture and wagons , carts etc . I have done all the things I intend to do before, so none are new really . All in all I am pretty close to self sufficiency but there are still things I will want such as a pc or lights or wellies . Oh and DIY dentistry is NOT on my to do list ....
cheers
Russ
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I feel quite depressed now ;D
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I think self sufficiency depends largely on what people are willing to go without. In the war years it was forced on people - goods and food were just not available, nor was the money - but their expectations were less so it was more bearable. Self sufficiency is a fashion just now - we have the money to make our homes habitable without leaks from the weather, or keep unwanted guests out. We can make use of modern technology (which has been paid for, make no mistake), modern equipment, modern knowledge on medicines, plant treatments, even water treatments. One can say one wants to be self sufficient but in real terms no-one ever can be truly self sufficient ever again because the knowledge has been already paid for. What we can do is live comfortably within our own expectations using as few of the remaining resources as we can. No one can expect more or less than that. We will never again be 'self-sufficient' We are all 'world sufficient'.
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Russ, you surprise me regarding the dentist :o ::) ::)
My Gran used to tell me of when they used to tie fishing line around your tooth, hold you down, tie the other end to a door knob, and slam the door to pull out the tooth - ???
I believed her, ;D but I was onlt ten at the time ;D
- hate the dentist- but would hate to have to do it myself
Julie
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lol...sorry Rosemary , I can't think how to jazz it up and make it sound interesting !!! It is just how I do things ... ::) Not everyones cup of tea I know , but it's mine ... ;D
Cheers
Russ
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when do any of you find time to be happy?
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Growing and eating my own food makes me happy !! as does getting an old horse shoe and making a knife from it !!or seeing a new crop of wheat or grass growing , or seeing my horses running and playing about the field , or walking my dogs , or turning willow I planted as cuttings, into charcoal in a charcoal burner I made out of a scrap oil drum !! or making a willow basket from my own willow, or collecting my own honey from my own bees , or just sitting on my land watching the river flow through , or listening to the birds sing on a sunny morning (ok not many of those at the moment ::)) but the list goes on . Am I happy ? yes , I do what I want when I want , and there is no one to tell me otherwise, happy as the proverbial pig in **it !!!
cheers
Russ
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For anyone reading the third response I made here - the photos are under a new topic - building our own home from planks and nails
Julie
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I rather like the idea of being self-sufficientish (for anyone who's new to this term, have a look at www.selfsufficientish.com (http://www.selfsufficientish.com)).
Basically you grown / make / recycle what you can, and buy or barter for what you can't. True self sufficiency is perhaps a goal too far, but look at it as a continuum, and you'd be amazed what you can come up with!
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As Russ said, true self-sufficiency is not really possible but you start somewhere and keep doing more of it yourself until you are happy with the result or run out of time!
We Grow most of our own veg for 10 or 11 months of the year but are prepared to buy or barter some in the hungry gap. We grow our own soft fruit but I doubt if we'll ever grow enough top fruit on the Isle of Lewis!
We have our own eggs, milk, cheese, beef, pork, bacon, mutton and chicken but we rely on bought in food for the stock until we are able to produce more of it ourselves. That is one of the next goals along with a composting toilet, wind turbine (probably home made) and rain water storage to water stock automatically.
We have a mortgage and run a B&B from home to pay for it. We serve mostly home made food to guests where this is legal and the guests love it. One common comment is that they feel like they have experienced the "good life" a bit for themselves.
Ther are always trade offs, can we justify the expense and work of a cow for a limited return, do we need cows and goats together, is it worth feeding a sow all year to have access to piglets when we want them. You get the picture.
We are, though, exceedingly happy doing all this and can't imagine anything we'd rather be doing.
Cheers
Dave
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I was thinking about this thread this morning and actually, Annie has said pretty much what I was thinking. The "self" in self-sufficiency bothers me - 'cos it's also in selfish. Whether we like it or not, we're all part of the human race and we should all be trying to help each other, not cutting ourselves off and setting ourselves apart.
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Yes, exactly, Rosemary, and like it or not we are all dependant to a greater or lesser degree on each other. Natural progression and technology has made that happen. I am nowhere near any form of self sufficiency nor would want to be - I like people and company too much to want to stand on my own. But I do like the idea of bartering - if someone does me a favour I give them half a dozen eggs or some vegetables or plants, or babysit, or animalsit. I think that is the way forward in trying times.
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Perhaps a better term, and a better goal, would be Sustainable Living?
Dave
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Sustenance - now yer talking ;D ;D ;D
Is it time for tea and biscuits Sandy ::)
Julie ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
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Sustenance - now yer talking ;D ;D ;D
Is it time for tea and biscuits Sandy ::)
Julie ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Sure is - one of my pups is back for a couple of days holiday and her mummy brought me some rock cakes and cherry buns - off to have a cuppa with a couple of these and hang the diet!
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Self Suffiiciency to me doesn't mean that you are only looking after yourself and your immediate family.
To me, it means that you do not have to depend on outside corporations ripping you off every day
(Gas, Electricity, Water, Oil, Supermarkets, Butchers, etc.)
and pushing farmers prices down in order to make a fortune out of the consumer.
The other thing is the Quality factor, and knowing what is contained in your food is really important to us. Our food is pure, natural and without any unneccesary medication, chemicals or preservatives added. So we should benefit healthwise, and also financially, once initial costs are absorbed ( a bit like the hen story under Chickens in the Rain. ;D ;D
We have a friend who has a commercial pig farm, and a dairy farm.
He is currently paid 19 cents per litre for his milk. The same milk in local shops is 1.40 euro per litre. :o
The situation is really mad. The farmer has to raise the animal and feed it every day, and gets a pittance. :(
I am thinking of maybe making Irish farmhouse Cheese and Butter from his milk and offering him more per litre, he has mentioned that I can take as much as I wish from him - and I will still make money!
AND I will be able to sell my cheese and butter at a good price to the consumer too. Along with my Pedigree free range pork from farm to fork - I've already invested in HACCP training and a stainless steel processing unit!
We can all take it as far as we wish - having hens for eggs only - to full scale pig breeding or other food production - what we are really doing is GETTING BACK TO NATURE - As things used to be! before they invented - Marketing - Consumerism - Shopaholics - Choice and Calories! ::)
Just need equipment for making butter and cheese - where's Russ - hows that windows of his doing
he will know what I need to get..................... ;D ;D ;D ;D
Trouble is I like living so much I need 100 hours in a day and to stop ageing.... ::)
Julie
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Hello Julie,
managed to pop on at last... windows is sorted ok 'ish' now , pc seems ok so far ....pop!!!! no all ok ... had a power cut here tonight ::) god if it don't rain it pours.... anyway ... MILK is the answer to your question .... ;D ;D sorry couldn't resist ... Apart from making the odd 1/2 lb here and there of cheese , I wouldn't have a clue what you need for commercial quantities !!! I know it involves big stainless steel tanks , but thats it!! sorry ;D I make my little bits in bowls and jugs I have here in the caravan . Same with butter, just use a big jar and shake it for hours !!!! I lose interest in anything more than I need , I don't fancy going down the same road HFW has gone !! He has his road and I have mine . Mine is, supply me with what I want or need, and give any surplus to relatives or maybe sell a small amount to cover costs . I have spent years decombobulating myself from the rat race , and have no intention of recombobulating back into it .... ::) ;D My limit is swap 6 eggs for a few pints of milk or some such ...I do know that making cheese is easy ..making it right is a bit harder....gotta get back to smashing the cr*p out of the pc now .... :o
cheers
Russ
http://www.allotment.org.uk/allotment_foods/cheese-making/making-cheese-equipment.php
not a bad place to start from !!! some basic info and some links to follow too.. ;D
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Thanks for that Russ - keep me busy for a while - don't go battering that pc too much - it'll only get its own back when yer not looking ;D
I don't want to be too big - just sell a bit each week to the 30-40 people that buy meat from us at the farmers market and our farm shop - plus it would be nice to have our own - we have goats too so thats worth a try, I have heard goats milk and goats cheese is good for people and kids who suffer from asthma and theres a lot of that around here.
I watched an old lady make butter at an event in Dublin recently, she had a churny handle winder thingy bobby and then moulded it with two wooden paddles into shape - looked really simple, and I wondered if it would be worth making it at some of the events we do just like this lady did - the kids were amazed at the demonstration, and we do a lot of work with schools so, as they say where you were born "It mite be just down are street mate"
Anyhow, got to go - under pressure today and Joe isn't well so have to make tea to go with the sympathy the poor bu88er needs. I cannot get him to go to the Doctors - he hates them, but I think he needs some pain killers or anti-inflamatory stuff ::) ???
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Hello Julie,
butter is really easy to do . You can still get the big glass jar churns with the handles ...although they are always to dear for me . The only thing is it takes time , people tend to give up before it turns !!! , but it is easy , and tastes lovely too. Cheese is easy to ,as I said before, but it is a bit long winded , that is till you are used to doing it, and aren't standing there waiting to try it !!! I used to milk a herd of Jersey cows and had as much free milk as I wanted , made great cheese and butter , I also made loads of yogurt . It all came in handy with 7 kids in our family .
Sorry to hear Joe's back is still playing him up ....I take MSM tablets now ... (nothing to do with Microsoft or Bill Gates) , but they are basically sulphur tablets , and they help create new cartilage and to lubricate joints . I suffered terrible problems with my back till I started on those , only the odd problem nowdays .... maybe worth a try ? They take a week or so to have an effect at the start , you still have to go carefull with what you do though afterwards , no lifting car engines etc .... ::)
cheers
Russ
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Excuse my ignorance, but if its not bill gates or microsoft
What is MSM tablets????? ???
DG's are all that would take my pain away - and my doctor will not give me anymore - apparently there addictive - so have to put up with paracetamol, or a bottle of cheap plonk (neither of which work)
I slipped my disk when I was 28 and its still sore at times ::)
MSM ??? Not homeopathy is it - supposed to have studied that a while back but it never seemed to work for me - does ok on the dogs though
Julie
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methylsulfonylmethane
I stumbled on to MSM after helping a farrier for some time . Some peoples horses were old and didn't move about much, if at all , due to arthritis. Some people were told that there wasn't anything that could be done for their horses as they were too bad to be treated These same horses, after just a few weeks on MSM would be running round the field like foals , it really was an eye opener.
Now if this had been done on people I would have said oh it is just the placebo effect !! but horses can't read what it says on the bottle and would have no idea what they were being given . It worked for them , so I tried it and it worked for me too . After years of agonising pain from a broken neck and back , I was virtually pain free , still am today . Now if it is a placebo effect on me , I don't care, as long as it works . But I have seen it work since, on dogs as well as more horses. I crushed 5 vertebrae in my spine altogether , two in the neck and three lower down just below my shoulder blades , I have shrunk by about an inch and a quarter , and up till I started taking MSM I had regular debilitating pain . I still have problems , it hasn't cured the actual breaks but it has taken nearly all pain from my back and about 90% from my neck . It has no effect on my headaches that I get , some are very bad aches within my head , to do with the way a smashed my skull . Others are like a sort of migraine , but as long as I am pain free in the back I will continue to take them . I don't say they will work for everyone , but I know a few who also take them and it works for them too.
http://www.simplysupplements.net/product/49/msm-methyl-sulponyl-methane-1000mg/
cheers
Russ
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Will try to get some at the local health shop in Carrick-on-Shannon for Joe.
We have just finished putting up post and rail fencing after having the digger in all weekend, so he is wet and cold, so I will have to make him a hot water bottle.
You must have had a serious accident to break your back and neck, did you have to have pins and things?
Julie