The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: Bumblebear on July 20, 2013, 06:28:14 pm
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Hi everyone. Worried sick about my weaner. She fell poorly a week ago we had vet out and he gave pen jab and left another for a few days later. She seemed to get better but today she has taken a turn for the worse again. How long will it take to shift this bloody thing. Its heartbreaking to see. Shes lost weight too and it now much smaller than the other weaner who is fine. Waiting for a call from the vet again. :( :( any advice?
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ery needs to be hit hard with penicillin twice daily for 3 days.
try and keep the pig hydrated with electrolites. comfrey also gets the gut working again.
only every seen it once in a weaner we brought in did the above it soon recovered.
we inject all our stock against it after seeing it effects.
:fc:
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Had the vet out and he gave another pen jab and left some for Monday. She doesn't have a temp now but he thinks there could be a secondary problem now still connected to the ery. Shes not eating and panting heavily and I'm not prepared to let her suffer :( she has until Monday to improve. Devastated doesn't even cover it. I know we were going to eat her but I feel I have really let her down. I'm not even sure who to contact to do the deed or take her away :(
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hi, just been reading your link, I have three pet pigs and I haven't heard of erysipelas what is it? I hope your pig is ok by thee way. my smallest was bad about four weeks ago, of her feed, just lying groaning, whent on loads of websites to match symptoms, thought she had a blockage, it was actually constipation! prune and apple pulp done the trick.
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The erysipelas can be called the Diamond Disease as you get diamond shaped skin marks on infected animals, erysipelas is common they say 50 % of pigs have it but they have the antibodies to keep in check
Really Bad Erysipelas
They get septicaemia it shows as the pig being really ill, with very high temperatures of more than 40°C.
The good thing is it hates penicillin. Really ill animals should be given quick acting penicillin twice daily for three days or a long-acting penicillin, could be given with a 2 day gap and then repeated.
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Erysipelas can be bad in pigs w ehad a sow last year that was fine one evening she was off her food no sign of diamond marks, just did not want ot move or eat would not take liquids as it was late in evening we left it till the morning, again off of her feed and for a big sow this was most unusual. Still not diamond marker so we called the vet vet came at midday within two minutes of her arriving the sow had died.
So beware it can strike without notice and be very rapid, the bacteria that causes the problem is in the pigs gut however it builds up in the soil from their toilet, this build up can spread over the pen with rain and if they eat food from the ground they can upset the balance of bacteria and hey presto you have a poorly pig.
Pen/Strep is best thing for them however if they recover they may become infertile or sterile, suffer with arthritis and will always look small, however some do make a full recovery.
But it is frightening the speed it can take hold,
Hope your pigs are fine and it is something else.
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As mine are Berkshires I didn't see any redness at all. Just lethargy and loss of appetite. :(
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Vet no 1 said ery. Vet tonight said cos no temp could be complications from ery maybe heart. She's still off food and panting. Ery is enviromental, a bit like tetanus.
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Little farmer, here's a link with loads of good info:
http://www.nadis.org.uk/bulletins/smaller-pig-producers-course-1/erysipelas.aspx (http://www.nadis.org.uk/bulletins/smaller-pig-producers-course-1/erysipelas.aspx)
Problem is (in weaners at least) they're unlikely to be sufficiently treated for Erysipelas. Sows can be vaccinated and will pass some immunity on but to fully protect piglets they need to be treated themselves. The vaccine needs to be given twice, 4 weeks apart and the first one can't be given til they're 6 weeks old....so if you buy a weaner at 8 weeks the breeder is not likely to do the first injection knowing the pig likely won't get the second injection in its new home.
The vaccine is live and only viable for 8 hours once opened, and it comes in minimum 25 dose vials so vaccinating is not something a small scale keeper will generally carry out but as the article says that's precisely why it is so prevalent on smallholdings.
It's something I've just been discussing with my vet - as I will be finishing all my own weaners I will be vaccinating all my pigs regardless of whether I use a whole 25 doses or not!
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if you need to put her to sleep, ask your vet for the local knackermans number. they will come out and shoot the pig and take it away. much cheaper than a vet. also much quicker than an injection - all over in seconds.
our knackermen are very sympathetic, and kind. (he also cries if you do)
after having animals shot and put to sleep by injection - id definitely go for shooting, much kinder for the beast.
sympathies to you :hug:
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She's dead. So sad. I'll be vaccinating in future too. I had never heard of it before and last years weaners were so straightforward :'(
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I've had it in a pig - horrible, covered her with damp towels to cool her down - she did survive but it was horrible.
I now vaccinate my weaners - i only buy in 4-6 so I factor in the cost when working out how much to sell the meat for. Mine are due their 2nd this week - fun and games of course trying to stick a needle in a pig!
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Bumblebear, I'm so sorry for your loss :'(
If you only had the 2 weaners you should think about getting another pig asap to keep the remaining one company.
Sending :hug:
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Yep, that's on my to do it. It will have to be a couple more though as the other weaner is huge and ready to go in a month or so. What a headache. Part of me thinks "never again".
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I understand :hug:
It might be better then, to take the other one just now and give yourself a break from pigs in that case ?
Can you take a girth and length measurement to figure out what weight it is now ?
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I had it in my weaners last year, and all of them had been vaccinated with Porcilis Ery at 6 and 10 weeks old, so even doing that doesn't provide complete protection. They may have got it more mildly though, and all three recovered completely within 3 or 4 days with the penicillin jabs, no residual long term effects thank goodness. If you decide to vaccinate, all pigs require a 2 ml dose regardless of size/age, so it might be worth getting one of the graduated gun vaccinators that re-load themselves with 2 ml every time. It is a complete doddle to use, one-handed, and far far easier than an ordinary syringe and needle. Available at VetMedsDirect where I get my Porc Ery from. So very sorry you lost your pig Bumblebear.
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Awww, Bumblebear I feel for you. Thats very sad.
I have 2 weaners who are due off soon and I would be devastated if it were to happen to me.
I must admit I hadn't heard of it before, still learning.
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That's sad
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I'm confused as she didn't have a rash nor lesions :( could it have been anything else? Although I suppose you don't get a high temp with heat stroke :( the question is what I do now? How do I introduce another gilt? The local petting farm has a kune cross available which is a similar age/size. He also said he had never seen a case of ery out of a commercial farm (when i asked if he vaccinated) and maybe she got dehydrated. I suppose the why and wheres aren't important now she's gone :(
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Split the field in half one running one side then after a week the smallest or gentlest pig stays on its half and the other one gets moved out of its territory.
As to whys and where fores there are thousands of diseases pigs can and do pick up you did the best you could if it was to ever happen again there are labs that can do postmortems and if something similar happened I'd be inclined to go that route.
They charge about 70 quid and each stage or test that adds on they check with your vet who will advise to proceed or not so you don't get charged stupid money.
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But I only have one ark.....
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So sad for you BB :( it's horrible to lose any animal for any reason. Why did the vet think Ery without those symptoms? I do need to fully understand when an animal has problems or dies so that next time I'm faced with a problem I'm more prepared or put things in place to prevent it happening again.
Inclined to agree with HH, might be best to take the remaining pig off sooner, although it'll be fine on it's own for a short time if it's not quite big enough esp if you have other animals around and/or you're about a lot.
If you do decide to get another will you take them both off together, otherwise you'll have the same situation again?
Can you leave the trailer in the field for the pig to shelter in or maybe knock up something temporary with straw bales?
I'm not happy to read that the vaccine hasn't worked for you Tamsaddle, why is that? Do adult pigs have better uptake/protection from being vaccinated every six months? I'll still do it regardless, some protection is better than none.
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So sorry for your loss. It is heart breaking. :hug:
You can make up a shelter using straw bales tied together and then add a roof as a temporary shelter.
As to introducing a new pig, I spent nearly a week fannying around getting myself in a state, due to the different sizes of them. But when I put the new pig in with the older one we had a bit of shouting and a bit of pushing around, Now they are the best of friends.
Good luck
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I'm not happy to read that the vaccine hasn't worked for you Tamsaddle, why is that? Do adult pigs have better uptake/protection from being vaccinated every six months? I'll still do it regardless, some protection is better than none.
We use Porcillis Ery to vaccinate our pigs, here's what I know about it...
Initial dose is 2 jabs, 4 weeks apart then a booster every 6 months - we've done this with all our breeding stock/piglets and haven't had a problem so far. :fc:
I think storage of the vaccine is crucial - it's an active vaccine (I think) and needs to be kept constantly cool - if it isn't stored properly it can affect how well it performs (advice given by my vet - who charges the same for the bottles as Vetsmeds direct ;)) So there's possibly been an issue with storage/transportation via the supplier. Also, you can't store & reuse the bottle - once it's open you've got a maximum of 10 hours to use it (I think it starts to lose 'potency' after this)
HTH a wee bit Ferretkeeper ?
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I've no idea at all why 3 of my weaners got erisypelas last year - they were the only ones out of nearly a hundred piglets we have bred over the last 5 years, everyone of them vaccinated against Ery. I always store the bottle in the fridge and use it at once, usually within 2 hours of first piercing the seal. The only odd factor was that they got it within 2 weeks of a sow returning from visiting a boar, although I had understood they can't catch it from other pigs, only from the ground, and the sow herself showed no signs of illness or ery, and went on to have a normal pregnancy and litter. So I will never know why, but it certainly has not put me off using Porcilis Ery on all our other piglets, plus the 6 month booster on adult pigs. It is such an easy jab to do, and for all but these 3, we have been completely clear of any sign of it, so it may well have worked perfectly well for the majority. By the way, the 3 weaners affected were the complete group we had at the time, all the others had by then gone off for slaughter several months earlier.
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The vet thought ery because of the high temp. As she was a Berkshire I have resumed it would be too hard to see any lesions but what do I know. We are going to collect a Tamworth which is a similar weight 40kg fish and we'll send them together when its time. Never had a Tamworth before and its a lot more expensive to buy a bigger pig. On top of the Vet bills and fallen stock fee. Flipping heck this will be truly expensive per pound pork. Tamsaddle did yours have lesions?
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Hi Bumblebear - sorry to hear about your loss.
We live in SW France and this disease is known as Rouge - the vet said "it is often linked to sheep being on the land" ??? however a friend of ours had 2 Berkshire x pietrain and at 5 months they were diagnosed with Ery (Rouge). They went down and wouldn't eat - the vet came and treated - they recovered and went to slaughter later. My husband helped out with the course of injections - he could not see the lesions - though the vet could. How is your other berkshire?
Lorraine (also known as Nelson) lost my password :-[
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The weaner who got it first didn't turn up to eat breakfast having been completely OK the night before - she looked very lame and stiff and eventually hobbled over to join the other two but showed no interest in eating. I took her temperature and found it was about 41, then felt her all over and first discovered what felt like noticeably raised bumps, about 6mm higher than skin level. It was only when I looked at the bumps in detail I discovered they were red and vaguely diamond shaped as well - these pigs were Tamworths so normally they have pink coloured skin. When I phoned the vet he diagnosed Ery immediately due to the sudden high temp, despite my protestations that they had been vaccinated - he said this was not uncommon at all. The other two had very high temperatures the following morning, so I injected them immediately with penicillin too, but probably caught it before they became really ill or went off their food, but one of the two was starting to show red, but flat, lesions as well. All three, and the first one who was showing all the classic symptoms, recovered completely within a few days, so it sounds like we were quite lucky. I get the feeling, like with meningitis in children, the speed with which you can get the penicillin jabs in is crucial - in our case the first pig was injected by 11 am, having shown no signs of being ill at 6 pm the previous evening. Glad to hear you are getting a replacement Tamworth - they are absolutely gorgeous pigs, very friendly and alert, and not at all difficult to look after. I'm nuts about them, IMO the most beautiful pig in the world by far. Good luck - Tamsaddle
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By the way, I would introduce the new Tamworth to your Berkshire almost at once. They will be desperate to meet each other, and the initial arguing that will occur when they are put together will take place regardless of the interval before they are allowed into the same space. So you might as well get it over and done with sooner rather than later! Don't worry unduly about them chasing and trying to bite each other's ears - it is all part of the ritual of establishing which of the two is going to be top pig. The "loser" usually has to sleep outside the ark for one or two nights, then they will sleep together, and within 3 or 4 days will be the best of friends with all the bickering completely forgotten. I have always found it a complete waste of time providing a second, temporary ark, as it is never, ever used, not even if it is raining or blowing a gale.
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Thanks Tamsaddle, I will be adding Penicillin to the list of meds I want to keep on hand. I had a long chat with my vet a couple of weeks ago and I do believe what they say and trust them BUT they don't always know everything...
I too have a lot of Tamworths and Iron age pigs (inc my Boar) in my mixed up herd, they are so cool!
And I also put new pigs into the group quickly, I don't bring single pigs in though, so they have some safety in their numbers. I might let them have a day to get acquainted through the fence from the holding pen, but they will always have their squabbles to get the pecking order sorted.
You will pay more for a larger pig BUT you haven't got the cost of feeding etc for anything like as long. I bought a couple of TW girlies at that size in May and they were ready last month - didn't take them to slaughter though, I'm keeping them for breeding!
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They seem to get on fine! I know its a stupid thing to say but as breeds they are chalk and cheese. My rounded jerky lardy Berkshire and this quite graceful calm pointy ginger pig. I do love pigs. Sigh.
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Tamsaddle, is the ery vaccine available from vet meds without a prescription? Would you recommend that over the mixed ery and parvovirus jab? Also, can you let me know which applicator gun you brought from vetmeds. There seem to be loads on there and the product descriptions weren't all that great. Thanks!
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I buy the smallest bottle of Porcilis Ery, 50 ml which does 25 doses, and is available without prescription. If I am getting it for weaners I buy two bottles as you need to vaccinate twice, 4 weeks apart, eg. 6 weeks and 10 weeks old, and one bottle only lasts for 10 hours once opened. Awful waste unless you have 25 pigs, but that is the smallest amount available anywhere. I have often thought about getting the combined parvovirus vaccine, but never have - I am not quite sure how important it is, nor for that matter whether that one is prescription or not. When I went on my Pig Paradise course ages ago they were adamant about the importance of vaccinating against erisypelas specifically rather than anything else, so that's why I've always used just the Ery vaccine. The vaccinator gun is also available at Vetmedsdirect, on the pig pages near the Porcilis Ery listing - it is a green coloured one made by Intervet for Porcilis, and you want the one that delivers a 2 ml dose, which is what is required for Porcilis Ery, regardless of the pig's age or size. Definitely worth getting, very easy and accurate to use.
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Thanks Tamsaddle, that's very useful. :thumbsup: Was planning on getting Flo and her piglets vaccinated but my vet can be a bit useless, and, unless its an emergency, he never seems to call me back. I desperately need to get the vaccine done as the piglets are coming up to 6 weeks and I have a buyer for them coming to collect when they are 10 weeks old. So will be great to get it from vet meds myself.
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Hi,
I have my vaccines and vaccine gun for erysipelas but I am wondering which needles to use? Am planning on doing the weaners, 6 weeks old, and Flo, sow > 1year. Am at work at mo and tried looking up the info on vet meds direct but the site doesn't say anything about needles but says it is a deep intramuscular injection, behind the ear.
thanks in advance!
Beki
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These are the needle sizes I hold and use for IM
Piglet 5/8" 21g
Weaner 1" 19g
Finisher 1.5" 16g
Adult 2" 16g
The needle need to be robust enough that if the pig turns it doesn't break and long enough to get through the fat
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These are about the same size needles I would use, but probably would go for the 3/4" rather than 5/8" for piglets. The needles I am using for Porc Ery for the 6 and 10 week old pigs are 1" x 18g and the Luer lock, all metal, reuseable type, as they are very sturdy and unlikely to bend or break. The needles with a plastic end are OK, but you should have several available as they bend easily if you don't get the needle straight in, as Hassle said. Then you have all the hassle (sorry!) of having to have another go which your pig wont like one bit.
Another thing to bear in mind with any jabs is the viscosity of the medicine. Something with the consistency of water will go through a thin gauge needle much more quickly than something thick and glutinous. With an adult pig requiring more than a 5 ml dose of something with a thick consistency, I would probably use a 14 or 13 gauge needle - they look enormous but get the stuff in.
Porc Ery is like thin milk and doesn't require a particularly fat needle. And as you have the gun you should find it really easy, as only one hand is required to do the jab and you can use the other hand to hold on to the pig if needed. Good luck! PS Unless you have 25 pigs to do, do a few squirts on to the ground first, keeping the bottle above the gun, and making sure there are minimal air bubbles in with the liquid. Also, try and remember to keep the gun handle depressed until you have withdrawn the needle from the pig, then release it slowly as it fills itself up again.
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Questions, questions. Getting a bit worked up about vaccinating these piglets. Never done such little ones before. :-[ Do you usually inject behind the ear for ery or would the leg be better?
Thanks again!
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Behind the ear to mid-neck is best, as the skin is quite soft and easy to pierce. Try to avoid injecting directly into a vein, which I did accidentally once - piglet looked very wobbly for 10 minutes but fortunately recovered quite quickly. Sometimes I get the jab straight in and they barely notice, other piglets squeal like mad, wriggle and shake their heads violently. The first ones will be the easiest, as they have no idea what's coming. A large group soon gets the idea something's going on, and they will scamper all over the place to avoid their turn. If this happens it's useful to have two people, one to restrain the pig/pig's head just long enough to get the injection in. Best thing is to stop worrying and just to get on with it whichever way you can, ignoring the noise - it stops instantly once the jab's done.
If you are having a really hard time catching them and keeping them still enough to get it in behind the ear, the rump will do instead, but definitely avoid the spinal area or any bony parts, choose the centre of a very fleshy bit. Our sows usually make less of a fuss than the piglets with this jab, which for them is a very small dose and very quick to do. I do them within the first minute of starting a meal when they are totally pre-occupied scoffing nuts, and if possible first rub/scratch, quite hard, the exact spot I am going to inject.
Another useful thing if you have quite a lot of piglets to inject is a marker pen so you can be quite sure which ones have been done and which not.
One other thing I didn't mention before - always check the chamber on the vaccinator gun has re-loaded fully before doing the next jab. Sometimes it only half fills up, when the handle is released too fast or the bottle has gone sideways/upside down.
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Well I'll be buying vaccinated stock next year!