The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: funkyfish on July 18, 2013, 11:03:31 pm
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Right, I may have done a stupid thing........
I know this Collie (working lines), through work. She was signed over to me as a pup, but within an hour the owners changed their minds so I let them have her back.
3 years later and after many many many behaviour consults with me and other very good behaviourists and trainers, the owners have decided to put her to sleep.
Her story- bought at 8 weeks off a farm. They got a collie for their teenage son (knowing he was going off to university at some point), they bought a collie as they don't have a lot of time to spend training a dog..
She bosses them around in the house, blocks door ways, guards the sofa, kitchen etc. She has major resource guarding issues- she bas bitten them multiple times and they have needed medical attention.
At agility training and at the vets she is fab, no problem to handle no bossiness, snapping, dodgy collie head dip or showing belly etc. She gives off good stressed body language before she goes for them, but they ignore/don't see it. They neck pin her for growling and so get bitten...
I think she has a lot of potential. In general she is not a snappy nervous dog, she is well socialised and has nice manors.
I have known her since 8 weeks and think PTS would be a waste.
I have recommended PTS for other dogs for being less aggressive and bitey, but she has no other issues appart form resource guarding (bowel, toys, sleeping places, stolen objects).
I'm going to see how she reacts to sheep (longline and muzzle!).
Would anyone consider her as a working dog?? Yes she has bitten, and that in in self- no matter what the circumcises warrants Put to sleep, BUT she has no exercise, stimulation, attention or affection. She is left for 6-10 hours a day and has no off lead time at the moment, except when going to training classed once a week.
Am I being too soft? ??? ?
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No. Go for it. Worst that can happen is the dog can't do the job and gets PTS further down the line, but you'll be giving her a chance and with stimulation and good handling she could easily be turned around and turn into a fab worker.
Would you keep her outside or in the house? That might make a difference...
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its worth a go surely.
our old neighbours had a young collie, he was never ever walked. he used to escape into my garden and start fighting all the time and then bite my livestock. he was spoilt and rude but when we had him for the weekend as the owners went away (with loads of free exercise and strict discipline) he never put a foot wrong, as soon as his owner got home, within 2 mins he was biting livestock etc.
was such a shame why people get collies as pets and just dont realise what they have.
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oh and don't I know all about that scenario >:(
Sometimes it's hard to know what to do for the best but speak to 'sheepdog' she's been a big help to me and my collie situation
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I would say your mind is nearly made up :) Agree with the others, give her a chance if you feel you can manage and have got the time.
Helen
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Thanks guys!!
if she were any other dog I'd not hesitate to PTS, as the risk of a dog biting again, or being passed around is just too high. But I Don't think she would behave like she does with anyone else...
Well I'm having her for the weekend to assess, and will see how she is in the house (taking extra precautions of course) and see what she thinks of the live stock. IF she goes ok and I find a place for her- if that place, for any reason does not work out then its off to rainbow bridge for her.
I'm also aware taht she may be fine with me but once settled in after a few months may start trying it on...
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Good luck! Let us know how she gets on. She is one very lucky girl :)
Helen
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Go for it .
I have one very similar to her but she bites only men, women she doesn't have an issue with. She is kept in the passageway between house and garage and has a boy collie for company he has been castrated. They both see my husband who is in and out all day ( she nevers bites him! Alpha male i think) and he can touch and fuss them.
But i always cage her when the grandkids are around and they know not to go near her, i just can't risk her biting them.
So that's how we go on, we manage her and she has a good life. she is walked twice a day and taken up the farm to do a bit of sheep work, but she will never be the family dog we really wanted. But we got her, so feel responsible for her and we feel we must give her as good a life as possible.
If she ever becomes uncontrollable or she does hurt someone i will have her pts no question about it.
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Possibly sounds a bit counter intuitive for the dogs well being but I'd be tempted to lay off the agility classes (unless they compete)
If you do agility with a dog (in my experience anyway and I've been doing it for a bit) you do allow them to let their passage from a calm state to an excited state to speed up quite considerably, so you can expect them to be more excitable generally, my current dog is blindingly fast, amazingly eager and very well trained, however I just accept that I have inadvertantly taught her to switch from calm to nutcase in a split second, when she is in nutcase mode I have to yell all commands so she obeys, in normal state a whisper will do.
I'd be tempted to try with sheep, maybe keep the sheep in a round pen and introduce her on the outside at first,
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It sounds to me like this dog would be getting the perfect chance at a new life, one that could be good for her. Going from a home that really has wrecked her (poor dog) to one that can actually 'think dog' and allow her to live as her breed intended.
Good luck - let us know how it all goes please :thumbsup:
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I am not a dog expert but don't Collies need work to keep them occupied?
We have sheep but have to use other means to round them up as we just wouldn't have enough work to give a collie and he/she would get bored.
Best if luck to you. Sound like she just needs a bit of work and stimulation and somebody taking an interest in her. A bit like kids really :) ;)
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Hope it works for you.
If I am honest I wouldn't take on a dog with that history but undoubtedly there are success stories and that would be great.
Behaviour is probably well established now. Owners may not be perfect but none of us are .... they have been bothered enough to realize the problem and try for quite a while to seek help. A farmers wife that I know has had similar problems with a collie. She no longer lives on a farm but has owned and worked collies all her life. She has had to let her collie go to a big farm where it will live an outdoor life. It was well stimulated, trained and exercised to a high level. Talking to her she knew as well as anyone how to handle collies and feels a complete failure. She could not stop the resource guarding and was afraid that her children would get bitten as the behaviour was getting worse.
You are very experienced and know what you are taking on (presumably you don't have children around) ....... Good luck. :fc:
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Good luck :fc: . She just needs somone very patient and experienced with working dogs, particularly collies. But keep her well away from any children.
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Good luck, brilliant thing you are trying and I wish you the very best with her. She sounds like a frustrated but very clever dog to me who needs something to do. Clearly she is happy when she has her agility to occupy her.
Keep us updated xx
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Would you consider keeping her yourself if she fitted in with your lifestyle?
I think it certainly sounds like this dog is bored and frustrated but, as has been said earlier, the behaviour (resource guarding etc) could be ingrained into her now and so will need plenty of work on your part to change. However, it could be that with a little time, patience, proper exercise and firm boundaries set down that she could become a useful working dog.
I don't know many sheepdog folks down in Devon, but there is David Kennard who may help you assess the dog, if you felt you needed a second opinion. He is busy with the English National over the weekend, but it might be worth giving him a call after that.
His details can be found here
http://www.boroughfarm.co.uk/contact-us/ (http://www.boroughfarm.co.uk/contact-us/)
Good luck. I do believe this poor dog deserves a second chance, so please let us know how you get on.
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oh and don't I know all about that scenario >:(
Sometimes it's hard to know what to do for the best but speak to 'sheepdog' she's been a big help to me and my collie situation
Glad I have been of some help. Have you heard anything back about assessing Blue yet? I will keep :fc:
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hi everyone and thanks for the comments!
I've had her over night to assess, and she hasn't put a foot wrong..
After speaking at length with the owners- it now turns out that at home she wears a shock collar and they zap her when she eyes or growls at them... They have problems getting her in the house- she goes for them at the front door, and when they try and get her out of the car... Well I can see why now if they shock her! at home they can only have one person in the room at a time as she will heard/nip them all the time... At my house she was fine with 3 people and 4 other dogs (all known to her form agility training and brought in one by one).
She did join my agility class for a few months, the dog learned the basics very quickly- despite the owners... They struggle to follow simple instructions like- do not throw the toy, place it on the ground in front of the jump- sot hey throw it and so wind her up into a chase game, she then doesn't let go of the toy, they grab at her and get bitten. I place the toys (making it low value) she takes it I then swap it for a treat/another toy.
Ok so she hasn't gone through new dog syndrome yet (once they settle in even up to a year later they start pushing the boundaries). But I find her to be a very cringy submissive girl with a sharp streak (like most Collie bitches..).
I think in a normal home situation with doggy people who can read body language so they can see when she is getting stressed, she would be no problem..
they want her back at the end of the week and have her homed from there, but she needs to destress before being rehomed.
If I didn't have 3 other dogs and live in a first floor (large) flat in a town, I'd have her in a heart beat, she would be fab dog the smallholding and bikejoring etc that we do.
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Umm just reread my post- pls forgive the typos and grammar.. :D
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oh and don't I know all about that scenario >:(
Sometimes it's hard to know what to do for the best but speak to 'sheepdog' she's been a big help to me and my collie situation
Glad I have been of some help. Have you heard anything back about assessing Blue yet? I will keep :fc:
Blue is getting assessed on Tuesday by local guy and he reckons if he's fit to train he'll have no bother finding him a suitable home :fc:
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Well sadly she has no interest in sheep- not even to play with them :(
I had problems getting her in the car (a Renault Kangoo with big cages in it)- she gave very stressed body language but did get in for a treat, then she turned in to a snarling monster! Poor dog, she was so stressed- stress panting as fast as she could then lunging at the cage door attacking it, then giving calming signals. I could have cried for her- I imagine that they shock her at that point- she must to so scared of being scared!
All she was saying was I'm not coping give me space- she did nip me, and I mean barely touched the skin, compared to the extreme level of aggressive display she was giving, I should have by rights been mauled, but she doesn't want to be naughty. Poor poor dog. :'(
There is only one place for her now- Rainbow bridge. If I had no other dogs and could dedicate several months to her and keep her I would, but half arsing with her training (IF she could learn to calm down, when in that state I don't think she can learn as she is so stressed). Acting out tjat level of aggression everytime she is stressed/scared or has conflicting emotions is just not on, she could redirect her frustrations on any passerby/child/other dog etc. Every time I breaked or turned a corner she stared again, she obviously is terrified in the car, and their house as we have had no problems here and they have massive problems just getting her in the house!
If a person had treated their child like they have treated her they would have been done for abuse. But they have only followed the advice of 'trainers' and 'behaviourists' with no training or qualifications and now she is emotionally damaged beyond repair. :'( This is why all trainer and behaviourists should have to be accredited, its coming but not soon enough!
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I feel so sad for her, and for you - you have done far more than I would have done. I'd have told the owners to have her put down straight away and given them a lecture; but I am a gundog owner, not a sheepdog owner and I realise they are different.
Mine are a vary basic working gundog breed, nothing like retrievers or spaniels and can be turned into problem dogs with bad handling too. I do know a number of people who use e-collars but mainly for stopping them hunting too far rather than anything else.,
Sad day for the poor dog. Run free of fear when you cross that bridge, girlie. :'( :'( :'(
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I think you are doing the right thing but gutted that it has come to this for the dog and gutted for you that you are the one who is having the do the difficult thing.
Having just taken on two collies myself, I am feeling very fortunate, and very grateful to their previous owner, because they are really delightful bitches and while keen to work at least once a day, appear happy with normal fun and games and walks the rest of the time (as long as there's lots of both!).
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So, so sorry. :bouquet:
You did your very best. Some dogs need very careful handling. My father trains gundogs and would never use these collars ..... far more harm than good can be done in most cases. He always said that if he had to resort to those he would give up. Used wrongly on a highly strung and sensitive dog, they must be disastrous.
You did more than I would have done and did your all .... almost impossible I would guess from your original and follow up descriptions. She sounds as though she could be a danger.
:bouquet:
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:bouquet: Sorry it's come to this - those collars are vicious and this is the sort of situation they cause. About time they were banned.
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I'm not sure I'd ban them - they do have their uses - stopping sheep chasers for instance.
But I am more and more thinking there should be a test to be allowed to own a dog, and that all dogs should be licensed.
ALL breeders should be licensed too,(misalliances and one offs could be retrospective) and have to make an annual return on pups they've sold and any other information received of previously bred dogs. A simple database that the police could access needn't be expensive and if the licence money was ring fenced it would be self financing.
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So sad and yes, a lot of children are brought up like that but nothing is done. I hate people buying dogs or pups on a whim, the hard thing is sorting the good from the bad....you used to have to have dog licences, not sure why that was stopped, in fact now it could be easier to monitor, a bit like car MOT's, but, any one who wants to go under the law radar can and will.
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Radar could be really low - all dogs MUST carry a tag with ID number from the database, any loose dog found without tag, taken in, owner contacted and dog euthanased in 3 days.
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Oh, I'm so sorry it didn't work out. The poor girl. What a truly horrible start to life and no wonder she is like she is.
So sorry, you really did your best.
Helen
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I am actually too upset about this story to be able to write coherently at the moment.
Poor. Little. Dog. :bouquet:
Most anyone can ruin most any dog with bad training.
Take a dog with a brain the speed of a collie, people who can't understand and follow the most basic of dog training rules, give them a collar and a shocker...
Poor. Little. Dog. :'( :'(
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I'm so glad you tried, but in fact it's such a horrible, sad story, I actually think she's better off out of it. Poor love :'( And bloody owners :rant:
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:'(
At least you tried.
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I have only just read this, and it has really upset me, but not as much as it must have upset you who is in the thick of it.
best wishes to you
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Thanks everyone. I really helps to vent sometimes!!
She was put to sleep last week. A friend of mine (also a VN) held her and gave her cuddles and kisses and treats. No one in the practice could speak to the owners or look them in the eye. :'(
They are having her ashes back in a the posh oak casket... >:(
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I think it was the right thing to do. You would all have felt really badly if she had been kept alive and done something awful.
At least she went peacefully
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I feel exactly the same about this little dog as I do about Daniel.
I'm glad she's at peace. :bouquet: