The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: john and helen on June 29, 2013, 07:06:11 pm
-
Hello
I am just looking at a few costings, so i can work out the pennies that will be needed, :thinking:
so !!!! what would i be roughly looking at :thinking:
Septic tank.... i would estimate about £10k
water bore hole..................................£9k
would i need a bat survey...................£ ?
static caravan.....................................£3k inc delivery
survey and structional engineers report £1k ?
I guess i would need PP for static whilst work is being done on barn
basic building, plumbing and electrics is not a problem.... i have those covered
what are your thoughts...and please add anything i have missed
-
Hi, my thoughts, well, more guesses than anything so dont take them too seriously would be:
I saw a photo of a barn which if i remember correctly you would make into a house? Have a dig down yourself and see if it has proper foundations, won't cost anything and would be a conversation opener with engineer. :farmer:
The planners might say you have to "do up" the end of your driveway, put in visibility splays and tarmac/kerb them to a certain standard, cost? Probably a lot of £s :thinking:
If i was starting from scratch i'd put in a drive through disinfection "pit" in my gateway, as per FMD days.
Security cameras fitted to the entrance, yard and house. Mains electric fencing on the boundaries, i'd like it low down enough to give foxes and badgers a kick too.
I don't thing you'll need planning for the static while you're building with planning permission, cost, possibly £0 :roflanim:
Are mains services already installed? Cost, £0 to £Lots :innocent:
Storeage for things from your house till new house is ready, anywhere dry and secure or would a shipping container be better/safer. :rant:
How about two caravans, one for day living and one for sleeping? :hug:
Fencing, landscaping, then of course housing for stock, medicine cabinets, feed store, isolation unit, trailer storage.
Whatever you decide to do, i wouldn't rush into putting any permanent structures up until you've lived there for at least a year and have found out where the sun shines most, the frost pockets are, wet patches appear etc, i've had my latest place for two years and am only just working out the best places for everything!
Best of luck, look forward to the photos, if you want any practice fencing etc let me know!
-
If its any help, when we were renovating from ruin our place, Aberdeenshire council said that because it was uninhabitable, they regarded a static caravan on the curtilage as part and parcel of the PP and there was no extra PP needed or charge. Once finished build, it should be removed.
During the build we paid band A council tax on the caravan and then once house habitable we stopped paying that and they transferred to the house (sadly at higher than A band :-))
Note that shipping containers ARE generally viewed by planning authorities as requiring PP however so something with wheels might be better for storage even if it's sold afterwards.
I would assume as a rule of thumb that a stone built barn is unlikely to have much if anything in the way of foundations, tho you might get lucky, this means much digging down to correct levels or give more headrooms may well require underpinning, this can get expensive but is mainly labour so you can save some money if you can DIY or assist builders.
Does your PP specify a bat survey? I imagine it might?
Septic tank you might be able to do cheaper, if it really is a septic tank and soak away and not a treatment plant Klargester thing.
The things that cost a lot more than you expect are the unexciting things - concrete, turf, aggregate.
Don't forget the cost of the building warrant, it's based on a percentage of build cost and is a much higher cost than PP and unlike PP there is a limited time to finish (normally 3 years tho can be extended by one year twice). It will likely be over £1000.
-
we considered a place which was on a generator for electric. the hook up to mains electric was quoted by scottish hydroelectric for £250k !!!
-
Anything you have missed :thinking: :thinking: :thinking: A win on the lottery ?
-
The place does have electric to it..it does state on the estate agents report that the vendor will bring a water connection to the property, so thats something i will need to get in writing from the vendor or take into account when i make the offer...
the foundations are about 24" down from the floor level...but that would need to be checked... the heights wouldn't be a problem as the barn from floor to roof would easily give you 8ft ceiling heights ground and first floor
I do have a friend who is a surveyor and he knows a couple of structural engineers, so getting that sorted won't be a problem....
I did have in mind a 20ft sea container for storage and another one for compact tractor , quad
I would be surprised if we had to make any alterations to the entrance as the road only feeds 3 other farms before coming to a dead end...
great suggestions, please keep them coming
-
Wow that's good foundations :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Check out about the improving the entranceway, you'll only have to do it if it's conditioned in the pp but any new dwelling nowadays tends to trigger them wanting it. However, it only applies if your sole use driveway but is going out onto any kind of adopted road, if it's just going onto a private shared track it probably won't be an issue. What they are trying to get rid of is private tracks from new houses with stony or gravelly drives and the house owners vehicles pull gravel and stones onto the road every time they return to or leave the house by car. Eg in Aberdeenshire such a scenario would require the first 5m of drive (or whole if that's less) from the road entrance to be tarmaced.
-
not the best of pics , but i got this off google street
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee62/johningham/barnpic1_zps4d47b5c3.jpg) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/johningham/media/barnpic1_zps4d47b5c3.jpg.html)
there is lots of work to do on the inside and out.... thats not the problem, its knowing what might be expected from the ground level... thats a good point about the driveway... i would more than likely put in a hard standing anyway for a car or two
what ever happened to the good old days when planning was pretty straight forward :roflanim: it seems like now all these buildings that have stood the test of time , need totally revamping ....yet just the other day, i was fitting some new flooring to a 15 year old house ...and the floors where shocking...the 2ft x 4ft floor boards they used on a floating floor where all over the place..and they call this progress :roflanim: :roflanim:
this is the vid i stuck up the other day....
https://vimeo.com/69098105 (https://vimeo.com/69098105)
-
John ,
I suggest that if fund stretch to it start looking for an old working JCB site master with front bucket and back hoe.
It will easily pay for itself and it will allow you to excavate the septic tank hole trenches and move kit about with out you busting your back etc. .
You can always sell it after you move in but methinks you'll keep it .
I may know someone who might part with theirs as they have indicated that they would be soon selling up & moving on (two years ago )
-
Quite a Tardis :thumbsup:
I noticed what are probably swallows nesting in your rafters. They will carry on nesting until Sept and it's illegal to disturb occupied nests, so that's something you will need to work around as well as bats, barn owls and so on.
What's your vision for the interior? Traditional or modern?
-
John ,
I suggest that if fund stretch to it start looking for an old working JCB site master with front bucket and back hoe.
It will easily pay for itself and it will allow you to excavate the septic tank hole trenches and move kit about with out you busting your back etc. .
You can always sell it after you move in but methinks you'll keep it .
I may know someone who might part with theirs as they have indicated that they would be soon selling up & moving on (two years ago )
I would agree with that, altho having just done exactly that (old JCB3X), OH did have to admit it ''might' not fit behind the house where the drainage channels are needed so he might need a mini digger too.....so see what size is most practical :-))! Ours is only 2wd and a rust bucket but it works and will def pay for itself quickly (it was about £5k, which is about the cheapest a full size working JCB gets)
-
agree with the old JBC dave...put many a window in one many years ago (I had a 11 year spell of plant reglazing)
thats a good question FW..we would like to do a bit of both, any beams would be kept along with some stone work
one thing that would need doing is insulation, so the interior walls would be stud and plasterboard, ile see if i can pop the plans on later...or do a rough copy ..
-
What will happen re windows? Will it be 2 storey, if so will they let you make enough openings or will upstairs be mainly roof lights and downstairs more reliant on the openings there already in the structure? Is it listed? It is lovely and the stonework and roof look pretty good considering!
-
yes planning for two levels, windows in both cable ends
plus two skylights either side of the roof
this is just a basic mock up i did
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee62/johningham/barnpic1_zpsce3ba377.jpg) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/johningham/media/barnpic1_zpsce3ba377.jpg.html)
-
from the side...this is sort of what i would aim for
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee62/johningham/e3d23caa-58a2-4cdb-a820-60d7f0f27527_zps9cf5caf0.jpg) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/johningham/media/e3d23caa-58a2-4cdb-a820-60d7f0f27527_zps9cf5caf0.jpg.html)
-
I see you have already got your quad bike in the plan :roflanim:
-
Ah, so you would have close neighbours. You would almost certainly have to put up some screening between the two properties, privacy and all that, so make sure you have got enough parking & turning space for two cars (that's what they insisted on ours), but we didn't have to tarmac fortunately :relief: (our driveway is 100m long).
What kind of heating are you putting in? If oil - space for tank plus access for delivery lorry necessary.
Oh and make sure you have level access for a wheelchair and also have a bathroom etc facilities that can be adapted if you/your partner become less mobile - we have our main bedroom/bathroom on the groundfloor, so will be able to live here even if not able to get up stairs.
Will you have enough land to build some sheds/animal housing/workshop and is it accessible - the plot seems to be on a slope?
It was so exciting when we got our plans sorted... but also very nerve racking as we had to sell our house just before Xmas... Won't want to do anything like that again for a very long time...
-
Tooooo right Sally :roflanim: :roflanim: i refuse not to have one :roflanim: :roflanim:
Hi Anke..yes the field does slope, more so further out... but that is where i would keep sheep , pigs and goats,
we did look at a flat grounded place, but just didn't get the feel
plenty of room for more sheds; buildings etc ..and yes i would ramp up to the back door
we did consider about having neighbours, and we had the same situation in france..where they where no trouble at all, at the moment we live in a semi ..so real close neighbours...back front and sides
we will be out back most of the time ..so that means we would be away from them anyway... as it stands at the moment..only 1 of the 4 dwellings is occupied ... but either way, we can give a friendly wave and leave it at that...
as for heating, we where thinking of a multi fuel wood burner and LPG as a back up.... and cooking, i may even look into solar for heating the water,
plenty of car parking space ....
if we decide 100% on this property, we would make the back , our main entrance, thats where we get our total privacy .... thats one reason why we didn't go for the other barn with 17 acres, (a) it was far to steep (B) the neighbours overlooked the back garden.... Big No No
-
Most planning departments will require you to keep the original barn openings and for example retain the soldier arches above the doorways.
The other problems with this type of barn conversions is that you tend step straight into the dwelling through what was the existing doorway; i.e there is no porch area. This can lead to a lot of draughts across the room. I know because we bought one like that! It took a lot of time and energy (not to say money) to get the planners to let us add extensions.
This is our porch and utility extension on one side
(http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/porch.jpg)
and sunroom on the other
(http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/sun_room_front.jpg)
-
Henchard - I love your sunroom :sunshine: How difficult was it to cut the ridge into the main roof? Your house is very similar to ours, except the front is the south facing wall, so we would want a sunroom plus front porch there, and a similar back porch and utility bit to yours on the north facing side. Do you mind if I ask what sort of price we would be looking at for each of those?
John - I meant to say I love your arrow slits/ventilation gaps. I've always felt a few of them would be very useful for fending off unwelcome guests as well as practising my archery skills :innocent: ;D
-
Partly it depends if the house is listed: ours is and so no porch for us: instead one of the inside rooms is a sort of boot and coats room. But we don't mind too much as the old porch did look stuck on and anyway the gales would soon have it away across the hill!
John and Helen I see your thinking re the neighbours. And what lovely land and building it is...
-
that looks lovely Henchard, really really like that....
FW..i did say to helen i could mount a gun post in the front room with those slits :roflanim: :roflanim:
cheers LLM :thumbsup:
-
How difficult was it to cut the ridge into the main roof?
That's not difficult, a good builder can do it without any great grief - it's just a matter of stripping back some slates and leaving the felt in place.
(http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/roof_const.jpg)
Do you mind if I ask what sort of price we would be looking at for each of those?
About double what you expect! I can't give an exact figure as it was all part of a bigger refurbishment; including more insulation and underfloor heating etc. Much depends on the level of finish. For instance the windows are Danish and the bifold doors are German (at about double the price of what you can source them in the UK). But we didn't want poor door performance in the Welsh weather! I think a good starting point would be about £1500 a square meter for extensions of this height plus extra for any superior doors/windows/flooring UFH etc.
The full refurbishment is detailed in our blog (and subsequent parts)
http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/everyday-stuff/no-so-grand-designs-part-1/ (http://lizburton.co.uk/wordpress/everyday-stuff/no-so-grand-designs-part-1/)
-
your blog was a great read john & liz :thumbsup:
-
The place does have electric to it..it does state on the estate agents report that the vendor will bring a water connection to the property, so thats something i will need to get in writing from the vendor or take into account when i make the offer...
Make sure the water supply is new from the mains ie your own. Not just an extention from someone elses.
-
The place does have electric to it..it does state on the estate agents report that the vendor will bring a water connection to the property, so thats something i will need to get in writing from the vendor or take into account when i make the offer...
Make sure the water supply is new from the mains ie your own. Not just an extention from someone elses.
yes..thats a good point :thumbsup:
going on what the neighbour said...it looks like a bore hole job....so that will have to come off the asking price for starters ...£9k
-
There looks to be lots of other houses there , is there not a water main, and indeed mains sewage ?
On another point - Are the approach roads / accesses exculsively yours or council owned---private or shared roads/accesses can be a thing of nightmares (i speak from very bitter experience) Any rights of way over your property or you rights of way over others ?
-
The place does have electric to it..it does state on the estate agents report that the vendor will bring a water connection to the property, so thats something i will need to get in writing from the vendor or take into account when i make the offer...
Make sure the water supply is new from the mains ie your own. Not just an extention from someone elses.
yes..thats a good point :thumbsup:
going on what the neighbour said...it looks like a bore hole job....so that will have to come off the asking price for starters ...£9k
I don't think you can get an extension connection from someone else's water supply anymore - needs to be to the mains direct and with a meter built in (or at least the space for one to be put in in future). Or a borehole indeed...
-
That's exactly my point, an unscrupulos seller might tell you he will give you water, but it might be from a pipe on his adjacent retained property. It would have no legal standing and give problems in the future (if it slipped through this sale process)
-
That's exactly my point, an unscrupulos seller might tell you he will give you water, but it might be from a pipe on his adjacent retained property. It would have no legal standing and give problems in the future (if it slipped through this sale process)
Good point Stufe.
Also check by asking in pre sale Qs whether anyone takes their private water supply from within x metres of the boundary of your land, or on the land.
I say this as it wasn't until 5 years after we bought out place that we realised that next door but one neighbours a mile away get their water from right on our boundary (just the other side of the boundary) where there are just fields in between us belonging to another chap, it's then piped under said fields to their house.
The impact is that we have to be even more careful about sprays or anything (we don't normally use anything but we could have been spraying away to get rid of ragwort or ground elder), since it is basically the water from our land they are drinking. Chap in between did it like this I guess so that he could do whatever he liked on his land, as it's in pipes there, he sold them the house site. So he can spray and fertilise away!
-
i would consider renewable energy seriously as my bills have increased greatly over the last few years. i think with our next place we will look seriously at something or other, if it stops me paying the fat cats. we are v frigal but still spend £2.5k a yr on heat/electric so i would invest if i found my forever home. mind you its usually in the tens of thousands...
we never knew we had mains sewage pipes on our land until our fields were being dug up for the new houses being built in the village. i have nothing in writing about it still.
-
John and Helen, it looks like a massive undertaking but how exciting. I always fancied doing something like it.
-
Thanks MGM... i would guess where ever we buy we will come across some sort of issues,
our dream was always to have a blank canvas and put in what we want from the start, and i never seem to do things by half :roflanim: :roflanim:
i have really taken on board about buying an old jcb type digger after looking at hire rates , and can see lots of advantages with other jobs
the septic tank could cost me a lot less than i 1st thought... :thumbsup:
i need to start talking with the planning people to see all the details.... we really do like this place...if its meant to be, then it will be ...
-
I would endorse the jcb thing, we bought our place in 2007, an acquaintance had just finished a self build and had a jcb to get rid of, it wasn't something I'd thought of, but I bought it, and it has to be said it has saved us lots, but mainly compared to hiring its just the fact that its always there, you don't have to do jobs in a big rush , you can pop out and do a bit any time, in fact I'm off out now to shift a bit of soil, and a 1 ton bag of gravel ! It great stress relief after a day at work too. (Except when you dig through your own water pipe ! But that's another story.)
I've looked at your aerial photo, and mock ups, looks great.
Ps. I did have previous experience of driving a jcb from my youth working on my neighbours farm...
-
My OH is still finding it a ....shall we say learning curve driving the JCB, he says it makes driving the little John Deere a doddle! But he's doing well, and it is already proving very useful (40 acres means no shortage of jobs for it)
-
I can't pretend to know much about driving and operating one..though i did have a big red SAME tractor in france ..loved that old thing..and it had a front bucket... :excited: and many many years ago , i did try to level a small piece of ground with a mini digger..... it looked more like a sand dune in the end :roflanim:
life is for learning, laughing, and learning a bit more :thumbsup:
-
See if you can get a short operators JCB course in JCB land near Alton towers or somewhere local . Claim & the actual cost of the machine & training in your business costs as I'm sure you'll also use it for them like laying solid drives etc to the store sheds & the drainage for the same where you store your business equipment .
We found that angle was good and also approved by the HMR&C & for VAT purposes .. check it out though just in case things have changed.
We registered for VAT so we could recover all VAT on the business even though initially we were well under the threshold . It covered things like all our computers printers , phone lines , power cables, water for live stock , paths, drain , machinery to do the job and road way materials as well as VAT ongoing business costs.
It gave us about 24 K back
-
now thats an idea...i could move my business to the smallholding... i am VAT registered already with the flooring ,
i guess i would need to get PP for a carpet /vinyl store/shed type building
-
i would consider renewable energy seriously as my bills have increased greatly over the last few years. i think with our next place we will look seriously at something or other, if it stops me paying the fat cats. we are v frigal but still spend £2.5k a yr on heat/electric so i would invest if i found my forever home. mind you its usually in the tens of thousands...
Really? :o :o :o You must live in a mansion! Or have kids that leave the doors open and play incessant music and games consoles I suppose ::)
Mine is just a 70s 2 bedroom bungalow but I've got my electric down to just over £300 a year and as I can't afford to purchase renewables it's just as well I'm frugal with the old electric! We had a "reduced" cost scheme if we were prepared to invest £15k into a community plan a couple years ago, but had less than 48 hours to decide and I just about fell over laughing at the idea that would be lying about in my spare cash drawer..
Sorry, diverted from theme there.
John, if you're already VAT registered it makes sense to put the business on site and get the best from all your building materials and setup costs. Would presumably save you money wherever you currently base your storage too and make things more secure and easier to "commute"..
Do also recommend a JCB if you can find one at the right price and condition and have plenty work for it, you won't lose even if you sell it on in a couple years. Wish I had a tractor or JCB here, I'm forever waiting on contractors to come out as they'll always put the big acreages or big paying jobs first. Can't blame them, but sometimes you only want one ditch dug or one thing moved from A to B and everything has to stop til you a. have the money and b. can get the man to turn up and do that one wee job :-\
-
also heartly endorse getting a JCB, we self built in 2004 and OH purchased a JCB telescopic handler with front bucket & pallet forks, the plan was to sell it after the build but we've still got it as we use it for all sorts of jobs around the holding from shifting pallets of feed, knocking in fence posts, lifting pig houses and the list goes on.
mandy :pig:
-
now thats an idea...i could move my business to the smallholding... i am VAT registered already with the flooring ,
i guess i would need to get PP for a carpet /vinyl store/shed type building
Good idea, but you may need to think about other implications in that you may need Planning Permission for change of use, that part may become rateable for business use and subject to Capital Gains Tax if sold in the future.
-
now thats an idea...i could move my business to the smallholding... i am VAT registered already with the flooring ,
i guess i would need to get PP for a carpet /vinyl store/shed type building
Good idea, but you may need to think about other implications in that you may need Planning Permission for change of use, that part may become rateable for business use and subject to Capital Gains Tax if sold in the future.
i think that only applies if... you open up to the public..as a sole trader i think i am right in saying , I can have a store for my goods... samples and goods would be taken to the customers house..so the actual smallholding will still be a smallholding...
-
Really? :o :o :o You must live in a mansion! Or have kids that leave the doors open and play incessant music and games consoles I suppose ::)
no, we live in a barn conversion but only use the heating in severe weather - as we have 2 woodburners. i think the bills are just from tv/washing/drying/bathing for 4 kids. there have been times when im convinced maybe the neighbours are using our electric as we live so frugally. iv even turned off the electric to check.
in defiance we moved out to a caravan for 4mths but we still used the same electric for washing and drying so it was pointless really. i keep meaning to find a cheaper supplier but we are moving now so dont want to commit to a contract. we are definitely downsizing our next house as fed up with high bills and still being cold. :rant:
will seriously look at renewables for the next house.
-
That do sound expensive shy girl . are your walls insulted ? i know barn conversions can have big roof voids where you loose a lot of heat...
our friends in france have a big house , and in winter, they close the down stairs up..they have almost turned the upstairs into a flat as to save money. but they are only a unit of two people
-
the walls are either solid granite, or have the addition of partition walls with polystrene inners. the roofs are lagged but have big rooms and high ceilings. the washing machines is on almost 24/7 with 4 dogs, 4 kids etc. im sure its responsible for alot of the bills. not sure how to avoid the bills except to get a "windturbine" for free electric.
-
the one thing we did in france as i will here.is batten off the walls where possible and insulate..ok ! i know you loose some space and feature walling, but the warmth will pay for its self.
we are lucky in the respect that it will be just me helen and the dog ... so that should cut down a load of usage...those ankle biters sure do cost some money :roflanim:
-
Some great ideas and suggestions here. Love henchards porches, they look great.
Only point I would make, is you mentioned putting in hard standing for a couple of cars- will you be putting some hard standing round the back as well? The reason I say it is that, by the time you have your car, maybe two cars, one for towing, and one as a runabout. And then you have a livestock trailer, you might decide you need an atv trailer to go with that atv.... Maybe a flatbed trailer for muck, that JCB.... You kinda need more room than for just two cars....
Beth
-
Interesting !! ive found another now , not to far away from the last one, very similar in size, with more outbuildings,
its £10k more, but has electric, septic tank and water already..it also has about 10 x more amount parking spaces,
plus the chance to purchase another 6 acres , it only has 1 neighbour.instead of a possible 3 .....
site visit booked .... :thinking:
-
it only has 1 neighbour.instead of a possible 3 .....
go for less neighbours! thats the no 1 reason we are moving away.
-
ile go and have a look...if it feels right..then who knows...i am not going to rush just to get a piece of land..it really needs to tick all the boxes,
-
Interesting !! ive found another now , not to far away from the last one, very similar in size, with more outbuildings,
its £10k more, but has electric, septic tank and water already..it also has about 10 x more amount parking spaces,
plus the chance to purchase another 6 acres , it only has 1 neighbour.instead of a possible 3 .....
site visit booked .... :thinking:
That one sounds better, it's quite dispiriting spending half your budget on infrastructure that you won't even see.....<speaks from experience> :-))
If you can stretch to get the acreage, do it, youll never regret it even if you just rent out for the short term or get someone to take hay off.
-
it only has 1 neighbour.instead of a possible 3 .....
go for less neighbours! thats the no 1 reason we are moving away.
maybe you should of stuck a sign up :innocent:
(http://i228.photobucket.com/albums/ee62/johningham/countryside_zpsa2df10c7.jpg) (http://s228.photobucket.com/user/johningham/media/countryside_zpsa2df10c7.jpg.html)