The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Horses, ponies, donkeys & mules => Topic started by: Brijjy on June 24, 2013, 12:54:42 pm
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My incredibly stubborn Fell gelding is a real bugger to load. Yesterday I took him out and he loaded ok for the outward journey. It took over 2 hours to get him back in the trailer to go home. I am very careful when towing and always creep round corners and accelerate and decelerate gently. I've tried treats, boring him, cajoling and to my shame, I got cross with him which definitely didn't work. He's not at all scared just really really pig-headed. He gets to the bottom of the ramp and point blank refuses to go any further. We've tried a wide webbing strap round his bum too, he just sits on this! I've been trailer training this morning with no success and I'm going to go back out for another go. Any advice, as always, gratefully received.
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Can you put the trailer in the field and feed him in there? Every day I mean, just to make loading boring and routine and not necessarily always to do with traveling?
Also any sessions are best done on the basis that all day is completely fine for them to load, and that standing still is ok, but any movement backwards makes for a circle round - they get bored of the circling! And if they know you have all day they tend to load in 5 mins :-))
A Dually type head collar can be useful so any forward movement is rewarded by release of pressure.
Sometimes horsesdont like leaving the exciting pony party - our big chap was like that, ok at loading to go out, but didn't want it to end. So maybe when you box him up for the next few times, just box up and go round the block, or for a longer drive not stopping then drive back home. That way he will stop anticipating where the end point of his journeys is. Or take him to an event but instead of going home, once youve loaded him take him in a circle and back to the event. So he got to come back to the nice exciting place! And then load and home.
It may be worth if problems persist borrowing or buying a CCTV camera so you can see whether there is actually some issue that is making the horse reluctant, but if it's one way only I would think it is more not wanting the party to end!
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Obviously you know your horse, but I would argue that he's not pig headed but scared / unconfident. He may not be showing it by dancing around but he's not happy about it. Of course you can force him (webbing strap and all) but it will impact on your relationship - hence "you can make me once, but not twice". If you think about it, a predator asking a prey animal to go into an enclosed metal cave is about as far away form a "natural" situation as you are going to get :)
I'm not sure what trailer training you are doing but if you can get hold of the Parelli trailer DVD, it's well worth a watch. I hesitate to use the word Parelli in case someone goes off on one - but the techniques do speak for themselves.
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I had an arab gelding that would NEVER Load and as a result I was very limited with being able to take him out to shows etc unless they were within riding distance. I mentioned this to an experienced horse lady who ran a business in taking people to shows/transporting horses across the country, and she said that a method that never failed was to get a syringe full of water and shoot it at the horses backside as they are stood on the ramp. Have to say it is not the most conventional method and probably will be frowned upon by many, but all I can say is, it sure as hell worked for my arab and we only had to do it the once - he loaded every time after that!
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i had a pony like this. we would regularly practise loading him at home with a bucket no problems but if you were to load him for a lesson or something that involved WORK he would be terrible to load again for the return journey.
im sure he was just bone idle and stubborn and he really was happy just pottering round the farm without doing a days work. he was similar to catch - if he thought work was required - he'd hop it.
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Monty and Kelly at Intelligent Horsemanship do a good line in helping bad loaders too - and the same idea, don't make it an issue of forcing, but of continual encouragement; pressure and release; building on small successes and making very very sure it isn't scary or unpleasant while they're being trained.
It's easy for me to say, I've been lucky that all mine have been good loaders so far. (Thank goodness!)
One thing I have often thought about is whether it really is best to tie them up in the trailer? When we transport cattle we wouldn't dream of tethering them, thinking it a welfare issue that they can find their own place to stand, move around, etc. Yet with equines we lash them to the frame and restrict their movement - usually in not the best place for their comfort either, which I understand is at 45 degrees to the direction of travel. Does anyone let their ponies turn around in the trailer?
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method that never failed was to get a syringe full of water and shoot it at the horses backside as they are stood on the ramp.
Bloody disgraceful and amounts to abuse in my book. Just another example of the unprofessionalism of the so-called equestrian "prefession".
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method that never failed was to get a syringe full of water and shoot it at the horses backside as they are stood on the ramp.
Bloody disgraceful and amounts to abuse in my book. Just another example of the unprofessionalism of the so-called equestrian "prefession".
Sort of agree but it's a lot less harmful / milder than a lot of techniques used by 'professionals' - ESP at the end of an event when they won't reload, we had complete strangers trying to beat our horse up the ramp without even asking permission to interfere.....I'd have been glad if they had only brought a water pistol :-)
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I spent over a year getting Archie my chestnut stallion into the trailer. He would stand at the bottom of the ramp for hours and nothing would move him. I knew he was not being naughty but could not work out what his problem was. As time went on he would put a foot or two on the ramp and I would give him lots of praise then stop. I felt it was better to finish on a good note. One day he followed me in and stood and shook. We took him on short trips of 10 mins, he was always shaking and wet, then I decided to let him loose and behold he was fine. I think he got travel sick and by letting him choose how he stood helped him. Now he loads no problem, going to shows is something he seems to enjoy. He is quite the show off and off coarse going to my friends for the summer to run with her mares he is one happy boy. There is always a reason why a horse will not load, just because we cannot see it does not mean it is not real to them.
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I agree that you want to get to the bottom of why but habits can also become ingrained.
I have a Spanish serreta which is similar to a lunge cavesson but with a solid curved metal noseband inside the leather. In Spain this is used for handling/showing everything including stallions. I have found that stroppy/stubbon horses really respect it and don't argue. A friend borrowed it a few times to load her stubborn 16.3, who would rear and kick, but was alwaus happy to load to come home from parties and travelled well. With the serreta on he was very good. I've also heard good things about the Dually but never used one. These methods aren't about beating the horse into submission but the serreta at least is certainly useful for horses who have learnt that they are stronger than humans.
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Strangely enough, I have also witnessed that same water squirting treatment used in several dog training classes in my area and also one dog training place in Guernsey. If a dog or puppy kept barking the "professional" would creep up behind the dog and squirt it with a water pistol. The reasoning being that the sudden shock would stop the dog barking and install better behaviour.
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These methods aren't about beating the horse into submission but the serreta at least is certainly useful for horses who have learnt that they are stronger than humans.
Sorry, that's beating by another name - it's the use of force to subdue the horse's natural instinct.
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Well after about 3 or so hours of trailer training and playing about, I eventually got him to load. The trick with Jim was to keep backing away from the ramp if he started to back off himself and then do lots and lots of boring circles. I had the front ramp of the trailer open as well as the jockey ddor so it was flooded with light and less like a dark cave. Once he got all four feet on the ramp and his head in the trailer, I let go of his rope and kept tapping him on his bum and verbally telling him to go in. As he walked in, I chucked the rope round his neck, kept on talking to him and telling him to stand still and then I went in through the jockey door and rewarded him with food. I didn't need to beat him to get him in but just remind him that I'm the boss and as such I can be trusted. I've repeated this lots of times and he's getting much better. I think there was a certain amount of apprehension but not outright fear from him. He is still a stubborn beggar though ;D
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As for the to tie up or not to tie up. I'm coming round to the idea of not tying him up. The trailer has a central partition which restricts too much movement but also helps to support him. If the partition were to be removed I would tie him up as he does move a hell of alot in the trailer and does cause the towing vehicle to shift about. It's like he's having a party back there! I remember the first few journies he did and he sweated up loads but now he's dry when he gets out. The only thing with leaving him untied is that he could get his head under the breastbar and get panicked if he smacks his head on it.....
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You could take out the partition and then tie him from both sides of his headcollar to offer him stability. That would also lessen the risk of him getting his head under breast bar - heaven forbid that should happen.
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As for the to tie up or not to tie up. I'm coming round to the idea of not tying him up. The trailer has a central partition which restricts too much movement but also helps to support him. If the partition were to be removed I would tie him up as he does move a hell of alot in the trailer and does cause the towing vehicle to shift about. It's like he's having a party back there! I remember the first few journies he did and he sweated up loads but now he's dry when he gets out. The only thing with leaving him untied is that he could get his head under the breastbar and get panicked if he smacks his head on it.....
My girl did just that the other day, thankfully not too hard but :-(( also a horse not tied up jumped out the back of a trailer on the m1 the other day - dead instantly. I would cross tie to give more flexibility of movement without the ability to turn round. Cattle are very back heavy and have limited jumping room ad travelled with others but a pony can get itself into pickles. Maybe CCTV would be good to see what he does and where any issues lie??
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These methods aren't about beating the horse into submission but the serreta at least is certainly useful for horses who have learnt that they are stronger than humans.
Sorry, that's beating by another name - it's the use of force to subdue the horse's natural instinct.
Hmm I'll agree to disagree on this.
To me there's a point where keeping horse and humans safe and allowing the human to feel and so exude confidence, mixes well with giving the horse a positive experience e.g. rewards and a gentle trailer ride.
Sounds like the OP is making good progress. I'd go for no partition and cross tying over loose travel myself.
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Most of my ponies or horses have been reasonable loaders, years ago a strap around the quarters was usually the acceptable method of encouraging them in.
Then I had a youngster off my haflinger mare , the 1st time she was loaded she was 8 months old , into a horse box , to travel with her Mum from the West Midlands up to North of Glasgow. The haflinger was a good loader and the foal just followed Mum in but when we got to our destination after a long slow journey with stops, she refused to come out, even though the haflinger was unloaded. She was eventually half carried out and then took a massive leap, quite scarey for all concerned.
She didn't need to be trailered anywhere after that for some considerable length of time but I had decided to enter her in a showing class so she had to get there somehow.
The owner of the yard was the most patient horsewoman I have known and she helped me each day getting the youngster used to the trailer. Eating a haynet tied to the outside, walking around and sniffing without and pressure to go in. Eventually we wanted to test the water with her so lead her up to the ramp, she had her two front hooves on the ramp and became uncomfortable so she was calmed and walked away, this happened each time so we guessed it was the noise of the ramp combined with a slight unsteadiness.
We used muck and shavings from the muck heap to cover the ramp and made a path way of the muck/shavings leading up, the youngster was allowed to sniff the path and then walked well up the path and right onto the ramp before realising and straight into the trailer.
Now I had expected to tie her up with a hay net and leave her in for a short time but the yard owner advised me to walk her through the trailer and down the side ramp without stopping. I did this and walked the youngster back to the muck path and did the same again and then once more again.
After that she had a reward of a wee bucket of carrot/apple and allowed back into the meadow.
The next day we went through the same procedure and eventually after about 5 days we did tie her up with the hay net but left the side ramp down so she could see out. Eventually over the next few days , we shut the side ramp, then the back went up and eventually she went for a drive around the block.
That pony never ever had an issue with loading /unloading or travelling.
If you are lucky enough to get them young and spend a little time each day for a couple of weeks or so they learn the lesson of not to fear.
I do think the best thing was leading her straight through the trailer and back round , in my opinion that is when she learnt not to fear.
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My girl did just that the other day, thankfully not too hard but :-(( also a horse not tied up jumped out the back of a trailer on the m1 the other day - dead instantly. I would cross tie to give more flexibility of movement without the ability to turn round. Cattle are very back heavy and have limited jumping room ad travelled with others but a pony can get itself into pickles. Maybe CCTV would be good to see what he does and where any issues lie??
our ifor williams 505 has top doors on the ramps which we use with all youngsters whether tied or not. our partitions all come out easily so we can be quite flexible.
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Have you tried clicker training? It's time consuming but works brilliantly. I used it on a big Comtois mare who wouldn't let anyone anywhere near her feet as she had suffered an injury to her pelvis in the past and associated her feet being picked up with pain. We got to a stage where she stood still and was very co-operative with having her feet trimmed and it was all achieved with just a clicker and some herbal treats.
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Have been trailer training with the beasty and at home he's much better. So much so that I can load him on my own. However when out it does take three people to load him! I've been using crossed lunge lines behind him and this seems to be working but does need bods to make it work. I am carrying on with the training at home and away. Thanks everyone for the tips.
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my old arab mare was a bit sticky with loading and needed lunge lines to go in. i managed to do this on my own by hooking the llines up to the offside of the trailer, running it behind her back legs and holding it myself whilst we walked in to together. it did take a pull sometimes but after a while she would go in. i always needed them to load her tho in the end they were just in position with no pressure at all but if i didnt use them, she wouldnt go in. it was psychological in the end. im sure there is a training aid for sale where it is the same principle but has a back attachmment so the lines dont fall too low down, and you hold the lines in your hand by the ponies chest.
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One of my daughters horses needed to be loaded with lunge reins either side at first we used to have to cross them behind but it got to the stage that we just had to lay them on the ground like tram lines he would just walk straight in.
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Yesterday Emma brought Toto out of the field so we could do some training with him. Being a yearling he can be a handful so I like to do a few days a week just taking him in to be groomed and feet picked out. He is now just over 14 hands unlike my Shetlands with long legs that seem to go all over the place. He has not been in the trailer since he came as a weaned foal and then it took 3 of us to coax him in. I gave him lots of time, had some feed but he stood at the bottom of the ramp for about 30mins. After much sweet talking and coaxing he walked in got some food then backed out. Emma was keen for me to do it again but I said always finish on a good note, he did what we asked and tomorrow we can try again.
She is so keen to do things with him but I remind her he is very much a baby so little steps will bring a better reward.
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Hi hows the loading going we also have fells and I must say not much scares a fell I also have a 31yr that will plant if she feelis in the mood ::)
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He's much better to load at home than away and I think he probably always will be. What seems to work best is two lunge lines behind him and me not going in the trailer before him. He's a funny beasty.
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As you have, Brinjjy, I've found that it makes a huge difference if you can position the trailer so that the sun (or as much light as possible) is shining into it, so the horse isn't going into a dark space as horse's visual accommodation is very poor. Similarly, having the front ramp or jockey door open to allow more light in helps. So does having an easy-loading companion along!
I do the same as you did: when the horse hesitates, I take him away, or circle him near the ramp a couple of times and then ask again. Every time he hesitates, I do the same. Horses take longer to think things through than humans so giving them thinking space without pressure can make a big difference. Stubborness is usually either confusion or fear so reassurance and thinking time can really help. I know: I have a Cleveland Bay. I have never found him to be stubborn, but he does like to think things through and work it out for himself.
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Stubborness is usually either confusion or fear
i disagree, stubborness can be just that - stubborness. our pony would happily load for food, no food and no loading. just because he didnt want to. no fear/confusion in the slightest. ours are highlands who are well-known for thinking for themselves, thats how they survive on the hills. we had a grade A showjumper who couldnt make a decision for himself, would follow you blindy anywhere but no way he could he may a decision unless you told him the answer. he would load no problem but he couldnt find his way out of the copse in his own field.
the art is getting them to want to go in and them thinking it was their idea in the first place.
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Ineed, stubborness can just be that: sometimes they just have a different agenda. But what makes them decide they don't want to do... whatever? Lack of motivation/positive reinforcement or some negative feeling about the issue. The balance can be tipped by bribery, greater fear/pain/punishment than would result if the activity went ahead, or removal of the negative feelings by understanding or making the activity less difficult to comprehend.
I personally don't believe horses don't do things simply to be pigheaded.
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I love the image of the Grade A showjumper lost in a little wood. ;D
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Ineed, stubborness can just be that: sometimes they just have a different agenda. But what makes them decide they don't want to do... whatever? Lack of motivation/positive reinforcement or some negative feeling about the issue. The balance can be tipped by bribery, greater fear/pain/punishment than would result if the activity went ahead, or removal of the negative feelings by understanding or making the activity less difficult to comprehend.
I personally don't believe horses don't do things simply to be pigheaded.
yes, i agree. in our case our pony associated the trailer with being ridden, usually riding lessons at a yard down the road. he was ridden kindly, in no fear or pain, sound in all ways, with professional instructor - or sometimes just hacking in the forest - but he would quite honestly rather stay at home in the field.
i could de-sensitise him to loading by regularly loading him and not taking him to a lesson, and he would load ok, but if i reinforced his "negative theory" by expecting him to work after being loaded, he would be tricky to load again.
he was always a bit tricky to catch without food aswell, if he thought work was in order. he was just happy being a pony and not career minded.
on a similar note, i sold a 2 yr old pony to a family who wanted a quiet family plod. the pony is question was always mentally going to be a plod, the happiest kindest pony, happy to bumble anywhere and everywhere - now this family have progressed to showing and are wanting this pony to be jumping and performing actively on the bit etc and the pony really doesnt want to and is bucking people off now when he is asked to go into 4th gear. of course he is physically capable of being active but in his heart he just loved ambling along at his own pace, and resents being worked harder than he thinks fit. he is fit and sound, just doesnt enjoy the harder work.
some breeds or individual ponies find normal work much easier and enjoyable than others, and are capable of thinking for themselves.
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Very interesting reading these stories. I think a little bit of what everyone days is right. I have had my fair share of bad loaders and sometimes it is fear and sometimes stubbornness. Fells I have decided are the most stubborn sods on the planet and in is case I think the water shock treatment is ideal. A bit like Parelli, when I have a lesson if my youngster messes with me and won't move, eventually instructor will flick the carrot stick line which works a treat.
I tackled the loading issues from 8 months, starting with small lorry. A friend came with lorry and we spent half hour with each pony letting him sniff and investigate then walk up ramp when ready. Carrots at top. It didn't take long and on 2nd visit he hardly got ramp down and they were in! Progressed to trailer open front and back, going straight through working up to stopping inside then shutting doors. I have had no problems.
Trouble is if you buy a pony and don't know the history it is hard to solve the issues. I had one mare from 5, travelled perfect then at about 12 she started falling over and flapping around in the trailer. I had to travel without partition alone.
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Fells I have decided are the most stubborn sods on the planet and in is case I think the water shock treatment is ideal. A bit like Parelli, when I have a lesson if my youngster messes with me and won't move, eventually instructor will flick the carrot stick line which works a treat.
Fells I find to be keen to work, unhappy if they don't have a job, and 'stubborn' if they believe there to be a reason they shouldn't do a thing. So far I've found pressure-and-release to be magical and to unlock any problems - if you pull a Fell, it'll pull back and you won't win, they're very strong! But if you make it clear that you want them to come here, but won't force them to do anything that makes them unhappy, then pretty quickly they discover that the thing they thought might be scary, isn't, and do it happily.
I love my Fells. :love: :horse: :hshoe:
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this is a handy aid for loading.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Solo-Harness-horse-loading-easy-loader-trailer-KIT-/190872896325?pt=UK_Horse_Wear_Equipment&hash=item2c70e94345 (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Solo-Harness-horse-loading-easy-loader-trailer-KIT-/190872896325?pt=UK_Horse_Wear_Equipment&hash=item2c70e94345)
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I went to an endurance ride on sunday. I loaded Jimmy by myself into the trailer to go out. He walked up first time, no problems. Coming back from the event, I had help from my mum and my daughter. I had a lunge line either side of the trailer and these were crossed behind him, applying continuous, gentle pressure. After standing on the ramp and having a quick think, he went straight in. He has no fear of the trailer now as I've been practising at home. He travels really well, no sweating up and he will doze when trundling along a smooth road as I've woken him up when I've stopped to check on him. He is a good boy, still stubborn at times but a good boy :D
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well done :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: