The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Goats => Topic started by: nelson on June 23, 2013, 08:33:51 am
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Awoke this morning to find that our saanen had given birth to 4 dead (still in sack) this morning. :( Mum is looking okay eating but looks bewildered - this is our first time with a kidding so what to do next?
Her udders are of course full - should I be looking for an afterbirth? would be grateful for some advice. Thanks
Lorraine
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should still get an afterbirth ... keep an eye on how long, as she may need a vet & injection (I believe the "passing" is stimulated by the hormone changes from suckling kids?)
poor goat, and how awful for your first kidding.
How many kiddings has the goat had?
you can milk her as soon as she is happy enough to let you, but don't drink it for a few days, The colostrum tastes goaty! but very valuable for eg orphans, and freezes well.
there are much more knowledgeable goatkeepers who will help you more,
I hope the experience doesn't put you off, very traumatic for you
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How awful for you and the goat.
Unfortunately can't advise, but someone should be along soon
Cross posted with lb
Mojo
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Thanks - she is quite good natured even still - there is a string coming out suspect it is the afterbirth. I have milked before so will try and milk her if she will let me - I am thinking that will help her with the afterbirth.
This is her second kidding.
Thanks
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you may see a hanging "string" out of the back her - but the majority of the afterbirth will still be inside.
my cow will eat hers so you have to check regularly to see if its out as if its retained it can make them ill so it needs to come out. ponies in particular can get very sick within 12hrs of a retained placenta - not sure about goats.
very sad for you.
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Do you have more goats to kid ? If so you may want to check with your vet - they can run tests but want fresh material asap to do it (afterbirth and feotus). Depends if you feel its worth spending the cost but could help to decide if you want to vaccinate next year. Shame to lose 4 kids but sounds as if they were premature. Do you have cats on premises? I presume goats suffer the same abortive agents as sheep so worth having a look at that. You may also want to consider an LA antibiotic anyway as a precaution and definitely milk her - she doesn't need mastitis to add to her woes.
Good luck.
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Yes I would ease her udder out definitely, you can freeze the colostrum, especially if she had a booster vaccination recently it will be valuable for future use.
I would ask the vet for a syringe of oxytocin to make sure she produces the afterbirth. I would also inject with a long-acting antibiotic, just to be on the safe side (and as you cannot drink the milk for a few days anyway not a problem either).
It could have been many things causing this, quads can be quite a strain on her system, so maybe was just that or some abortive agent, like Toxoplasmosis or other. I would now try and make sure she is ok, start milking her out completely from about day 4, but watch that she is eating ok especially if she is a heavy milker. Any worries that she may stop - drench with Cetophyton (or equivalent) and also inject Calcium (Calciject as for sheep). A mineral/multivit drench (with Copper) would also help her.
Hope that she produces plenty of milk for you, and unless she is in super condition (unlikely after quads) I would definitely run her through to next autumn before mating again.
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Gosh, so sad for you.
I had a similar experience recently, a first time kidder in labour, nothing happening but she was straining like mad. Vet called, delivered the dead kid, it was a big'un and presented rump first, not legs. She had a long acting AB and painkiller, seemed ok while it lasted but she was still off colour, not eating etc. I was milking her but she did not enjoy it. Then I went back to the vet for more ABs, daily injections, and a metacam but a day after the course of ABs stopped she literally dropped dead, just couldn't cope.
It broke my heart and in hindsight I wish I'd been more forceful with the vet re painkillers, calcium etc etc. but it was my first time kidding too. I might have saved her. Don't take any chances, I don't think any of those things Anke suggested will do any harm if she doesn't need them but may save her if she does.
I actually came on to post about a kid born this morning to the sort of sister of the one that died - they weren't related but got them as young kids together, hand reared. Anyway I missed the whole thing, despite getting up at 5, I found the kid up and about, dry and looking for milk, mum looks good too.
I'm not trying to boast, merely to say that my faith has been restored, my heart healed and that yours will too. These things happen, and it's awful that it's your first experience but don't let it put you off, it will be better and easier next time, you'll be more prepared.
:hug:
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Hi and thanks so much to read ... but first have just taken a little col from her - she having a little trickle of blood it is hanging - she has had a wee - and has eaten raspberry leaves and munching hay and straw - she is though trying to pass something - so I am going back and forth to the stable - in between reading the posts.
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Terrible for you and so sad for the poor goat. Maybe she picked up an infection although 4 kids would have been quite a strain on her body. Not a goat person so no experience, would she foster a kid is that possible. Might help her recover quicker.
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Is it possible that she has a 5th? she is crouching and straining? will call the vet now but it is sunday in france and lunch time so is there anything I can do?
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Hi again - well she is clearly straining - arching her back and crouching ...
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Sounds like she's trying to get afterbirth out maybe if you haven't seen it yet? Do you know anyone who can get the oxytocin, I've had it on hand for pigs, any other animal keepers nearby?
Offer some willow if you have any as an analgesic, that will help her too.
Tell the vet it's an emergency, call another one if needs be, the sooner you get help the better.
Also, ask for a pessary antibiotic from the vet, instead of/as well as injection, particularly if the vet has to do an internal examination.
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Hi ferretkeeper - the contractions started not long after I took some colostrum from her. she has eaten a good bunch of raspberry leaf/canes, munched through hay and straw and had a drink. She goes from having a lie down - to getting up and going in the corner to have contractions etc. I have just brought her stable companion back in for company (it is also raining) :raining: .
will call another vet meanwhile will go and cut willow for her.
we usually keep Oxytocin in for our pigs too - but had a gap in the farrowing so haven't ordered any. Rang a few bods and no one had any. If the vet doesn't make it we do have antibiotics which we use for the pigs so will administered something to keep her undercover - will have to look up how much though.
Thanks everyone for the posts. Poor mum :'(
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:fc:
goats are such poor patients, they don't do being ill very well. Good idea to bring her in some company.
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:wave: Thanks to all today - well needless to say the vet didn't turn up >:( . Mum seems okay - the string of blood has disappeared - I am still concerned that we have seen no afterbirth.
She let us take some more colostrum which I have bottled and it is now in the fridge. We also took the decision to give her an antibiotic - :fc: :fc: . I really feel for her - and those babies :'( :'( .
Leaving the lights on in the barn until we go to bed then at first light we will be up to check on Mum and the other two who are also due. Quite tired now :tired: . Let you know the news come the morning. x
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4 sounds a lot and would have most definately put strain on her system. Sorry for her and for you, bad first experience, don't let it put you off, goats are usually easy peasy. Do you know what happened first time around for her? May be worth knowing for future reference.
All the best to you, a stressful day, we all undergo them somewhere along the line nelson :hug:
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how common is 4 kids? sounds alot to deal with.
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Hope she is better in the morning. Could she have eaten the placenta?
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:wave: Morning - we have called the vet out this morning - they said he would be here about mid morning. :fc: Mum was hanging her head this morning but responded to eating more willow and raspberry and have seen her have a drink.
I noticed that when she wee - blood was appearing again a bright red. She let me take colostrum from her again quite happily - she may well be on the road to recovery - but as I am new to goats we need vet to check her. In the confusion yesterday I didn't see the placenta.
Her history is that this is her second kidding - I think her first she had 2 and a good mum. Her Mum who I also have with me had 4 last year for previous owner.
will let you know later what the vet says/does
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Why did vet not turn up the first time you called, pretty poor if they cannot come out and check an animal that may be at high risk.
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still waiting - they said they would try and get to us this morning - lunch time now so everything stops. Keep checking on Mum she seems fine - still crouching though and trying to pass something.
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Have you checked for a malpositioned kid?
The fact there has been no afterbirth and she is still straining, make me think it is possible there is another kid she is trying to deliver.
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Hi BadgerFace - if I knew what to check for I would - I am in fear of hurting her - still waiting for the vet. she is okay but still straining. Monday is a bad day to call a vet out in France. so many large goat and pork farms to attend to - that we probably are at the bottom of the pile.
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Do you have a local experienced goat keeper or shepherd that could come and have a look for you? If the vet doesn't arrive soon, you will have to have a look yourself if there is no-one else to help.
Maybe try calling the vet again saying you think there maybe a stuck kid and your doe needs urgent help?
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Hi there - well the vet and assistant came about an hour ago. They were very good and did a thorough examination. They said she had signs of cetose and Metrite (that may not be spelt correctly).
They said that her uterus was nearly closed - so the girl did the internal as she had the smaller hands. Mum was very good throughout. Couldn't find anything . They laid her down and tied her legs and administered by IV Calcium; Methio and Genikine and an anti inflam. Aureiomycine; Dexamedium.
sorry this may be the french names.
We are to give her for 5 days Hepatobione and Biocestose dose by mouth.
Plenty of hay and granule.
My only concern is that he said to keep her on her own for a while - just hope she doesn't fret.
thanks for all your help - clearly we are not out of the woods yet. :fc:
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Glad to hear the vet has been and examined her, and there is no stuck kid. The metritis will be the cause of her straining.
Hopefully with antibiotics and anti-inflammatory drugs on board she will be feeling more comfortable and on the road to a speedy recovery. :fc: :goat:
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What is granule? If it is concentrates/hard feed/nuts or similar I would be careful to introduce too much of that too quickly. She needs lots of hay and I would normally start my nannies off on soaked sugar beet shreds, then introduce small handfuls of oats and increase those, and only after a few days start to give them dairy nuts, again starting with little and increasing, so that she is on a full milking ration after about two weeks post-kidding.
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Hi Anke - sorry granule = hard feed. Yes I will be careful.
I have just been given some fresh hay - cut about 3 weeks ago - would this be okay - my hay that I have been using is now a bit dusty. Could you tell me what is a lot of hay - ad lib?
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Hi Anke - sorry granule = hard feed. Yes I will be careful.
I have just been given some fresh hay - cut about 3 weeks ago - would this be okay - my hay that I have been using is now a bit dusty. Could you tell me what is a lot of hay - ad lib?
Yes hay ad lib, all the time anyway. I am not sure about feeding really fresh hay, BUT I have done it too in the past, when we raked up all the stuff the baler had left behind, and it lasted for nearly two weeks. Usually it is said to let hay "mature" for two to three months. However I don't think it will do her any harm... but maybe others disagree????
Hope your girl is going to be ok and as you already have lost the kids she will give you a good amount of milk! Just don't drink it until she is clear of all the medicines, if you have no clear milk withdrawal times I normally leave it 8 days until we drink it again.
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Thanks Anke - I have only taken small amounts of colustrum from her - morning and night - being a newbie to this - is this enough?
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In the first four days (and if she is not feeding any kids in particular) you would milk her until her udder is nicely soft, but not quite empty. I would normally take small amounts more than twice a day, especially if she lets you and make sure that the udder doesn't get hot/tight - mastitis danger. But if you strip her out straight away she will try and produce even more milk and the risk of milk fever is quite high. Normally the kids would take care of that in the early days, but even then you have to watch it as they often favour only one side or if only single kid there will be too much milk.
After about 4 days to a week you can start to strip her out. If you don't need all the milk and she is very thin/worn out/maybe not eating as well as she should you can see if she drinks some of her milk. I have only done this once to a nanny that had a difficult birth and wasn't eating, just to help her along - good for calcium intake.
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Thanks for that really helpful - she is much much brighter today. she quite happily lets us take but it is very very little that she has - already soft so it is just a couple of squeezes . This will probably increase over time. she is eating hay and I am bringing her in some browsing bits and pieces to keep her interested.
Have a lovely day everyone :sunshine:
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:wave: Just thought I would give you an update on Mum - she is so much better and her milk is increasing. still on a course of anti biotic. Giving her plenty of different greens and hay to eat and she is now on a small amount of her usual goat nuts. We also have some dry beet which we have soaked for her too. She has also been out in the sunshine. I now wait for my other 2 goats to kid :fc: :fc:
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:wave: Just thought I would give you an update on Mum - she is so much better and her milk is increasing. still on a course of anti biotic. Giving her plenty of different greens and hay to eat and she is now on a small amount of her usual goat nuts. We also have some dry beet which we have soaked for her too. She has also been out in the sunshine. I now wait for my other 2 goats to kid :fc: :fc:
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
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Good news, Nelson. :thumbsup:
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:wave: Just thought I would give you an update on Mum - she is so much better and her milk is increasing. still on a course of anti biotic. Giving her plenty of different greens and hay to eat and she is now on a small amount of her usual goat nuts. We also have some dry beet which we have soaked for her too. She has also been out in the sunshine. I now wait for my other 2 goats to kid :fc: :fc:
Hi Nelson. Being in France to, please tell me the name of the feed you give your goats.Do you have Billy goats too and if so do they eat the same stuff? Also, where do you get it from, where are you in France? Mary.
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:wave: Mary sorry for the late reply - got confused with passwords :dunce: I am now signed in as my own (Lorraine) name ex Nelson) - anyway the goat feed we buy comes from our local CAVAC store - it is a granulae for lactating goats. We also buy some lucerne and can also buy beet granules. We live in 79200. A lot of goats here and loads of cheese ;D
It has been a month since my last post re Mum - she is still doing well and we have nearly 3 litres a day from her now. She looks bright and well - so I am hoping that she will be okay now. Not going to put her with the Billy this year though. I have made icecream and yoghurt and even given a little milk to our Berkshire piglets - who lapped it up and asked for more ;) and indeed who could ask for more - good old Mum :love:
Now - my other 2 Sanaans have still not kidded. Grandmother has dropped and her udders have filled to the point of' it looks uncomfortable' - she has grazed the side of one and I have put some vaseline there. Now I am no expert as you know - but would of thought she is due soon? I did try the udder carefully this morning and it seems to me like milk - watery. At what point is it colustrum? Her previous owner told me Grandmother gave them up to 12 pints a day :o is that why her udders are huuuuuuge.
Daughter I am not sure if she is in kid. She is a first timer and I left her a little late. I think she is now coming up to 2 years. Her udders have swollen but more orange size.
Trouble is we didn't see the Billy with the girls. Anyway any advice re what else to look for - I guess it is just a waiting game... BTW hope you are all keeping cool during this hot spell x