The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Pigs => Topic started by: thenovice on May 31, 2013, 09:54:57 am
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Taking into account feed, transport and butchery costs, does anyone actually make any money from their pigs, or break even? :thinking:
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NO
mandy :pig:
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After 2 years of officially being a business - NO :-[
It's kinda rock and hard place stuff though - I'd rather sell all my pork (at a reasonable price) than be left with lots of expensive stuff in the freezer unsold.
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I think the feed suppliers do. And the abatoirs/butchers. And the equipment suppliers. As HH says it's a hard job to sell everything and not have wastage. As anyone in a fresh food business will tell you wastage is a big problem. I don't just mean stuff that ends up in the bin but also the loss when you have to sell cheap to get rid.
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We have just sold some Hampshire gilts at market and got 130 p/kg which is the sort of price you need for covering costs. We have also sold quite a few half pigs recently so again cover our costs with them. However we certainly dont make any money to actually live off, we both work and most of our money goes on the pigs!! We have a very expensive and time consuming hobby!!!
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the general concensus is not really and i would agree. at best we got some cheap fabulously yumptious rare breed pork.on this, our current only try, I reduced costs by making the ark from reclaimed paletts and shopping around for best price of weaners, we had a trouble free run with them with no vet bills but the cost of bought in feed is just too darned much to make it financially viable at our small level. great hobby though
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NO
Last year I started a spreadsheet to keep track of costs and gave up after about six weeks.
But then..... that's not why I keep pigs
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:wave:
I've gone into having three weaners with the attitude that I will be ecstatic if we break even (without including the cost of setting up)!
I have convinced my husband that if we don't enjoy pigs, we will be able to sell on all the items we've bought for a bit of a loss and at least we have tried it (I hope he believes me :thumbsup: :hshoe: [size=78%])[/size]
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I do make money but its not a living wage. I don't have the problem of unsold meat and wastage because I mainly sell weaners, about 160 a year. There is more money to be made selling the meat but a regular client list for large amounts is hard to get. Its only a hobby for me and the weaner route is less trouble.
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We make a small profit but per hour it's far below the minimum wage. We'd still keep pigs if we only managed to break even.
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Interesting to hear the candid comments. I suppose if you don't have a tv series, a book deal, and a celebrity chef (with deep pockets) behind you, trying to start out rearing rare breed pigs will never make you any money! :innocent:
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Interesting to hear the candid comments. I suppose if you don't have a tv series, a book deal, and a celebrity chef (with deep pockets) behind you, trying to start out rearing rare breed pigs will never make you any money! :innocent:
Got it in one! BUT.........what a fantastic hobby. :pig: :love:
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Luckily there are people about, like you lot, who really care about their rare breed pigs, and continue to promote and save them :thumbsup:
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Taking into account feed, transport and butchery costs, does anyone actually make any money from their pigs, or break even? :thinking:
:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: NO NO oh and NO
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If you take all setup costs into account we have made a BIG loss. If you take the pigs batch by batch, some we have made a loss on (particularly when we incurred a £100+ vet bill) but increasingly are returning a modest profit.
The key is not to pay an excessive amount for the weaners, we pay around £315 / tonne delivered for feed and in the region of £40 for slaughter and butchering. (Sausages and bacon cost more).
I track ALL the costs whether it be fuel to collect weaners or to collect feed (if not delivered), bedding, feed, slaughter and butchery plus packaging etc.
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I do not keep any animals but we have a B&B and I have had loads of farmers and there is an equation for keeping any meat animal these days, not sure what it is but its a lot, I see a lot of people on here have a hobby and thats keeping animals and rearing them, so there are not many hobbies that actualy bring money back into your pocket.
The old ways of collecting left overs from people may have been far more profitable, I am afraid. like every thing else, things are harder now with rules and regs.......every business is effected!
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We more or less break even on our pigs. In theory, according to my spreadsheets we should be making a little bit but it never seems to work out that way in practice. On the other hand, they are a fantastic bit of marketing for the community farm and I think we would have far fewer families paying for just the veg and eggs etc. if we didn't offer the pork as well so in a way they do earn their keep.
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:thumbsup:
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Because pigs unlike sheep and cattle are primarily needing to be fed a diet that smallholders can't produce themselves, and which the costs of buying on competition with others wanting it globally have risen so hugely, the pig has gone from being a cheap thing to raise to the most uneconomic.
Unless feed rules are relaxed I can't see that changing sadly.
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An awful lot depends on who you sell your meat to. We don't sell weaners because it wouldn't pay. Selling a half pig for the sort of going rate is not much help either. It's difficult for sure.
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Because pigs unlike sheep and cattle are primarily needing to be fed a diet that smallholders can't produce themselves, and which the costs of buying on competition with others wanting it globally have risen so hugely, the pig has gone from being a cheap thing to raise to the most uneconomic.
Unless feed rules are relaxed I can't see that changing sadly.
It's the increase in feed costs and concern over sustainability of supply that's led me to decrease the number of traditional breed pigs I have and up the number of Kunekunes :thumbsup:
Although they are slower growing, they only take a fraction of hard feeding of the big breeds (1lb per day versus 6lbs for sows :thumbsup:) and graze off the grass. You need a bit more space than you would for traditional breeds, but everything considered, they do fit the bill as a 'smallholders pig' and provide a low input pork supply :)
Karen
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Is feeding straights cheaper?
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Because pigs unlike sheep and cattle are primarily needing to be fed a diet that smallholders can't produce themselves, and which the costs of buying on competition with others wanting it globally have risen so hugely, the pig has gone from being a cheap thing to raise to the most uneconomic.
Unless feed rules are relaxed I can't see that changing sadly.
It's the increase in feed costs and concern over sustainability of supply that's led me to decrease the number of traditional breed pigs I have and up the number of Kunekunes :thumbsup:
Although they are slower growing, they only take a fraction of hard feeding of the big breeds (1lb per day versus 6lbs for sows :thumbsup: ) and graze off the grass. You need a bit more space than you would for traditional breeds, but everything considered, they do fit the bill as a 'smallholders pig' and provide a low input pork supply :)
Karen
:thumbsup: totally agree Karen. It's a real shame so many folks have tried to keep KKs "the traditional way" & ended-up with fatty carcasses. Mine definately produced leaner meat when they lived in steep woodland year round (with cosy huts of course!).
As for profit - my OH would hang out the flags if we broke even this year :innocent:
:love: :pig: :love:
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We make a profit but not a wage. Do not sell to a butcher or abattoir. You are producing a quality product with care and dedication. Sell the product to friends family and anyone in the village. We sell at £7/Kg for halves or whole and £8/Kg for meat boxes. This is a hobby that pays for itself. Don't expect to get rich, but cover your costs.
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I was talking to a good friend last night. He's got two breeding sows, both of which he's reared from being weaners. Between them, they've currently got 19 piglets and they're ten weeks old. At the moment, the 21 animals are eating a full bag of proprietry pig food a day. At nearly nine pounds a bag, it doesn't need much working out as to how much a week he's spending on pig food. Suffice it to say, its a heck of a lot.
This coming Friday, the piglets are off to market and with the current pig prices being as they are, my mate is going to be well out of pocket. Its very hard to see how many people are currently making money out of pig keeping, infact, i can't see how they're avoiding making a loss.
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Over the gate your mate is a good example of what not to do [no offence intended]. As pigs are expensive to feed you need to make sure you have a market before breeding. Sending pigs to market is the one way to guarantee not making any money. You either need to have a market for the meat or like me a market for the weaners, you can't afford to have pigs on site with no outlet for them eating 5lb of feed a day.
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I am expecting to about break even..... As long as I don't include my daily rate or my better OHs but then the pigs where just really a hobby and to stop me or at least reduce me eating bacon and sausages from animals that have the government welfare package as opposed to a pigs life which mine live.
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we're the same as landieman, £7 per kg butchered to family friends etc which helps cover the feed costs etc and the rest is in our freezer so plentiful supply of amazing meat. We have another 2 fattening at the mo which are pretty much sold already.
Out of interest H&C are running a programme just now called farmers:year on the land which showed how exactly how pigs are kept purely for meat production in Ireland, 24 weeks without ever seeing a blade of grass.
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I think a division needs to be made when asking this question. Clearly there are a lot of people who fit into the hobby pigkeeper category and some who are doing it as a business. The two things don't compare really. Much the same as smallholding in general really.
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So true Hughsey.
This year I'm keeping pigs again and I also have laying hens, ducks and for the first time in ages, this year I have a few turkeys. I think I'm pretty savvy in the way that I'm keeping them but having gone through the mill a few times in the last thirty to forty years, I don't expect to make much if any money out of them. If you don't expect to make an overall profit, then its a bonus if you do and less of a disappointment when you don't. At my tender age, i feel fortunate in as much that being a smallholder is a lifestyle decision for me rather than a necessity.
The only way that I'm making any money at all, is by specialising and in my case, this is by making and selling cider and apple juice.
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I think a division needs to be made when asking this question. Clearly there are a lot of people who fit into the hobby pigkeeper category and some who are doing it as a business. The two things don't compare really. Much the same as smallholding in general really.
I think you've hit the nail right on the hear there. We are literally Accidental Smallholders .... we bought the house we wanted and it happened to have 5 1/2 acres with it. Initially we let the 'field' out but have now reclaimed it for our own expanding smallholding. We both have full time jobs which funded the setting up and the steep learning phase. Increasingly it is paying its way .... but most certainly not what you could ever consider to be an 'income'.
Those with 'Farms' to make a living from I'd consider to be in a different category altogether.
Pete
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Is feeding straights cheaper?
It can be Suzie, but it's hard to get the mix right if you do it yourself - I didn't want to buy pellets any more so I get a grain-based feed for want of a better term, from a local-ish supplier who took vets advice and got the nutrient levels correct. Incidentally it's a lot cheaper than the bags of sow/weaner pellets, which are around £8 per 20kg here; even if you buy it bagged the grain stuff is only £6.50, but I get it in half tonne bags, at about £270 per tonne.
It still has soya in, which I still don't agree with on sustainability grounds and will move away from as soon as I can, but at least it's much less processed, you can see all the different bits which the pigs like :pig:
I am hoping to make money from my pigs, they're the best chance on a small acreage, and I have just secured a deal with a posh local restaurant who want a pig a week, maybe two in future. I will be looking for more outlets as it's pretty risky relying on one place, but this is already enough to make the "hobby" start paying for itself, profitable even, and I can't wait to prove my bank manager wrong :huff: !
Market prices were a bit bonkers at Carmarthen on Friday, the rare breed types were going cheaper than the commercial pink pigs, and doing the maths on the way home (with 13 pigs on board - none of them pink) it probably is possible to make more/easier money from them but not giving them anything like the life that we do and I bet the meat would be filth! :rant:
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Ferretkeeper what do you buy from the market, are they weaners and are they birth notified.
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Hi BB,
This was my first time at this particular market, and it's a bit hit and miss. I got three saddlebacks, close to finishing as I need some animals to be ready within the next month or so, and also brought back 10 weaners, none of which had any paperwork and are yet to be fully identified but they have rare breed written all over them :love:
There were a couple of GOS adults that had paperwork but I think they were the only two pigs in the whole place that did, and TBH unless you can read the tattoo or ear notches or whatever identified them, those printed records could have been for any pig, I don't trust anyone that sells at the local markets to tell the truth and some of the buyers were pretty dodgy too!!!
I'd always say if you want pedigree go straight to a breeder, see the animals in situ and that's what I have done in the past with all my lot. This time I wasn't being particularly picky and I need a certain amount of pigs to be in the pipeline so to speak, I was happy to go with the flow.
Out of interest whereabouts are you? I quite fancy some berkshires and you seem to have plenty on the go!!! ;)
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One thing you can't do is sell pigs or pork as "rare breed" if they have no provenance. They must be birth notified to qualify as rare breed. I've seen a few fancy websites selling rare breed pork but when you read the small print it turns out they're crosses. It's cheating as far as I'm concerned.
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Hi Fk I'm near Presteigne, Powys. Usually have piglets causing chaos somewhere.
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One thing you can't do is sell pigs or pork as "rare breed" if they have no provenance. They must be birth notified to qualify as rare breed. I've seen a few fancy websites selling rare breed pork but when you read the small print it turns out they're crosses. It's cheating as far as I'm concerned.
I thought that GOS were the only breed which had that sort of protection of name. If I don't birth register my GOS piglets, then I can't sell thier meat as having come from GOS. I'm fairly sure that isn't the case with the other breeds of pig.
Have a look at this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10349174 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10349174)
How I see it, if I go to market and buy a pen of what appear be pure bred pigs rare breed pigs, then I'm quite within my rights at a later date, to sell them as rare breed pork.
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Yes the GOS are the only one of our rare breeds to have that status but it applies to the name Gloucestershire Old Spots, not the fact that they are rare breed. If a pig comes from a market with no paperwork or identification it could be anything. It might look like a saddleback, or a tamworth or whatever, but without provenance it can't be described as any particular breed or as rare breed, because it probably isn't. Don't suppose the trading standards give a s**t though.
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It's true what Hughesy says if a pig is not birth notified it is just a pig because you can't prove anything conected with that pig. In theory if you know the parents are pure Berkshire but not notified you shouldn't even call them Berkshire.
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I don't agree with that.
I've decided on GOS and should hopefully have some piglets at the end of August. I only have one sow and I've got to decide wether or not join the BPA so that I can register the litter. If I do, then thats going to cost me £75.00, which in todays market is probably what I'd get for two weaners. Its because of this, that I thought long and hard before going into them. I was very tempted because of this to go with another breed.
I can understand why the GOS people were chuffed to get the protected status but the system doesn't work for the small guys like myself.
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The differentiation for me, and what my customers really want to know, is that my pork is not from a commercial type of pig, it is grown slowly outdoors, as naturally as possible and with actual flavour and texture. I will and do say the pork I produce is from rare breeds but I have never hidden the fact that there are crosses in there, in fact I actively tell people what they're buying, whether they want to know or not. Equally I have never said I was selling all pure breed pedigree meat but if that's what I have on a particular occasion, because some of my stock is, I will say so.
I am trying different types of pigs and different crosses to give my customers some variety and the chance to find what they prefer. No-one that buys pork from me has ever queried whether it was birth notified or whatever else, most customers don't have that sort of insight into breeding, all they want is good quality local meat and they trust that I know where it has come from. Theory and practice are not always the same thing, like being "organic" with a lower case "o"
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I think you're doing the right thing Ferretkeeper.
Its tricky enough for us smallholders to make a go of things as it is, but add the cost of BPA membership to whatever the current fee is you have to pay to the Soil Association to become 'organic' and it makes it nigh on impossible to make a profit.
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Thanks OTG, I was quite upset to think I might be considered to be cheating esp by a fellow smallholder :( ??? :)
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FK I have no problem with what you are doing and good luck with it. I was only pointing out the way that technically a pig needs to be birth notified to be called rare breed. A couple of my sows aren't registered but I only sell their weaners for meat but still call them Berkshires. :wave:
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I don't really get the 'technically' bit, surely a Berkshire is a Berkshire, wether it be registered or unregistered and the same with Tamworths etc.
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Wasn't you BB ;D
I can't get my head around it either OTG ???
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When my GOS has her litter, I wont be able to sell the pork from them as GOS pork unless the litter is registered but I will be quite in my right to say that the piglets have come from a regeistered mum and dad.
I might advertise my pork as being from cider pigs.They should be born at the end of August just in time to take advantage of the waste from the cider making process. They'll get lots of apples and apple pressing and I think thats what most punters are are interested in. How have they been kept and what have they been fed?
Every little bit helps and thankfully, not everything that they will have eaten on the way to becoming pork will have come directly from a bag. :pig:
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Sorry not making myself very clear. If a pig isn't in the herd book or birth notified it is just a pig. Just because it looks like a Berkshire doesn't mean its pure, could have 3 different breeds in it, that's what I mean, so shouldn't be called a Berkshire.
I think I'll give up there I'm confusing myself now. :roflanim:
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That is totally clear to me BB. In reality it's true that most pork buyers are not too bothered about the small print as long as they are getting what they want. A surprising number do ask me what breed of pig my meat has come from, where and how they are reared, and have an interest in supporting rare breeds. I like to be able to tell them and to be able to show them the certificate from the BPA which backs up what I'm saying.
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Following on from ferretkeepers post, I think that the information in this link shows the responsibility of pork producers to label their pork clearly and fairly.
http://www.gospbc.co.uk/labelling-gos-meat/ (http://www.gospbc.co.uk/labelling-gos-meat/)
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When we kept pigs (last time was in 2009) we made money on them, but only because of this:
The place I was working at the time had a farm shop anyway - and when we were getting pigs killed, we let customers know, so a lot was presold. We made a LOT of sausages with the poorer cuts that would have taken a while to sell. We froze any unsold down before it went out of date, and we certainly didn't reduce the price for the frozen product.
However, feed was a lot cheaper then, we finished on rolled barley and market veg trimmings (which hadn't been through a kitchen, obviously) which cost us £0.50 for a binful, if I recall (the veg was free).
They seemed to make a useful sideline to an existing business - I don't know if it would have stood as a business on its own.
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OTG brilliant link, that makes it all clear.
I think the answer for me then is to carry on as I am, saying exactly who the parents are in every case and that they are cross breeds - it's not like I've got hundreds of pigs, I know who's who!
I am already a member of BPA with my three Tamworth sows so I could birth notify any litters that are pure bred from them, which won't be that many in reality. I wonder if it's worth keeping the membership going as I'll be doing wild boar/iron age type crosses if all goes to plan?
If I use my non pedigree Large Black sow can I just say she's a LB cross? Does that seem to satisfy the requirements?
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Just to add to the mix...
I think it is important that we as breeders are responsible and that we breed from the best pig we can.
Part of what makes up that best pig is it being breed standard if the pig is good enough to be breed standard it's good enough to birth notify and register (if applicable) paying the BPA is your choice to keep the paperwork.
I'm not saying cross breeds are wrong having a mix of two pig varieties giving you the best of both is useful. But if the boar and sow are the best then you get the best cross breed.
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Not all breeders choose to register their stock and some of the worst specimens of pure bred animals have had enough papers to paper a wall.
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Not sure if anyone makes much money from pigs but just bought sow nuts from Tincknells in Wells for £10.75 a bag when in Mole Valley its £9.50 and on multi bags there is a further discount. It pays to shop around when buying feed.
But at the end of the day its just a hobby for me and putting meat in the freezer for the family which is why I keep a Gloucester Old Spot Sow and a Boar for mating free range in the field. Clearly make no money but at least I know what goes into the sausages.
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I would be interested for research purposes, on the number of people who actually first, buy rare breed pork because it is rare breed and not just because it has been produced free range. And secondly the number of customers that have actually either shown an interest in the bpa pork certificate or been persuaded to buy the pork because of this certificate
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We're talking about niche market here, with pork producers targetting a small but none the less significant percentage of the shopping population.
Unfortuntely, the vast majority of people still buy their pork from the supermarket and don't really give a toss about its provenance. The market for rare breed pork has everything to do with connecting with the customer and presentation is all important.
I'm convinced that when the economic situation improves, the market for rare breed pork will start to grow even more quickly than it is now.In the meantime, sales can be slow. At the moment, price is all important and thats why, without good presentation, rarebreed pork can be difficult to sell.
I was recently advised that my GOS half and whole pigs should be selling for between six and seven pounds per kilo. I hope that i can sell my produce for that sort of price but I can see it being extremely difficult to do so. I think that i'm pretty good at a few things but being a a good salesmen is something that I'm yet to crack.
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Just tell them about pink slime. I normally at least get one person interested each time I mention it :thumbsup:
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Just bought some Duffield sow rolls for £7.20 @20kg, unless someone knows something bad about them I better get some more.
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:thumbsup: where are you honeyed?
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Near Cambridge, the same feed from another shop they wanted over £9. Everything is normally expensive, but it was that price 8 weeks ago.
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Too far away for us ::)
:fc: for you that it hasn't gone up in price the last couple of months.
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Costs are not that relevant for someone keeping a few weaners for their own freezer and buying a few bags of feed at a time is never going to get you the best price. I'm constantly shocked at the prices some people have been paying though. Anyone who keeps pig seriously is going to be getting their feed a lot cheaper than the quoted per bag retail prices but if you use a lot even a few pence a bag makes a difference.
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When my GOS has her litter, I wont be able to sell the pork from them as GOS pork unless the litter is registered but I will be quite in my right to say that the piglets have come from a regeistered mum and dad.
the offspring dont need to be registered but birth-notified to be sold as pedigree. you can download forms from BPA once they are slaughtered to prove the carcus is from reg parents. only breeding stock needs to be registered (ie best 10%)
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@honeyend - we've been getting the duffields for a while now and they seem absolutely fine - we get them at ~£6.70 a bag but do get half a ton at a time which brings the price down a bit.