The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Community => Coffee Lounge => Topic started by: downtoearth on May 20, 2013, 06:49:26 pm
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Can anyone give me first hand info regarding a woodburning cooker. I am also in a quandry about what to do about my heating. At the moment I have old storage heaters and an open fire. I cant stand the storage heaters, inflexable and costly. The open fire is ok but again costly and has to be fed constantly. So I only use it in evenings. I want to find a system that will not be too expensive to run, no gas here and so am confused! Would love to have an Aga in the kitchen for cooking but again expensive to run. Have heard about latest electric storage heaters from germany that run on normal rates, not economy 7 but cant find anyone to give me their experience of them. I dont have any pipe work in the house so puting in a conventional oil system means lifting floorboards etc.
I suspect it will all cost a fortune which I havent got!! Cant bear another cold winter!
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We replaced our open fire with a multifuel stove, uses less fuel and produces more heat. Get one well above the size you need, our first was too small at 5kw our new one is 11 kw. And heats can heat a huge area.
I would imagine this is your cheapest least disruptive quick fix. Stick with a conventional cooker. We have an electric aga, it is lovely, but very expensive to run. (And to buy in th first place)
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You will need a ready supply of logs. If you have to buy them you might well find it's not a cheap option
We sometimes cook on our woodburner but too hot in summer
Be careful about what size you get - too large and you won't be able to burn it efficiently
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If we had our own wood supply we would love to have a wood burning cooker. We found a beautiful one which was from the Czech Republic I think, but by the time we investigated further that type was no longer being imported. It would be too hot to use in the summer - if we ever get another one - summer that is. Even an Aga makes it uncomfortably hot in summer.
We ended up with a Clearview woodburning stove - the smallest, as anything larger couldn't be burnt efficiently in our small room, as spandit said. We love it :thumbsup: . Once the living room is hot we open the doors and it heats the rest of the house. We also have oil fired central heating but we could manage without (it went in first). The only time the Clearview doesn't keep us toasty warm is when the East wind blows and comes in every nook and cranny - not the stove's fault.
Our stove is very quick and easy to light and can be kept in overnight with a large hardwood log. We thought at first that it could be used with coal as well as wood, but it's not recommended.
It takes several tons of wood a year - burning 24 hours in the depths of winter, evenings only in Autumn and spring. If you have a good longterm supply then this would be ideal, but if you have to buy it it's quite expensive.
You can cook on it in a power cut, as an emergency, but otherwise we use a conventional electric cooker.
Heat just is expensive, unless you have several acres of mature coppice or similar to crop.
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Goodness me, dont know what to do about the heating. Dont have a supply of wood. Will have to buy it in. Would a woodburner with back boiler and radiator work? One plumber said it wasnt a good idea.
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Two of my friends over here are heating their houses with woodburners that have a back boiler for their central heating. Both are very happy with it, both of them use Hunter woodburners, and we do too. Its excellent AND in the winter, it will cook a stew or casserole in about 2 hours. It heats upstairs too, thanks to heat rising, and I have another small logburner in the kitchen for the middle of winter.
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we have 2 woodburners, one runs CH (cheap 'prity' bulgarian monster stove amazing) and one is super efficent clearview in living room (again, very pleased - but we do have access to wood - we get through about 8 tonnes a year. And although we buy it in a uncut logs, and spend weeks of our life processing it - it still costs a fortune! We are thinking of moving to those storage heaters or 'underfloor' heating mats as we have a pretty plum stream to tap into for hydro electric eventually. A Friend has a woodburning stanley cooker - works lovely but she is constantly feeding it and she buys in multifuel for it too.
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Can't really advise you , but just offer some thoughts .
I had a rayburn cooker that would burn wood or coal or a mix .
It did make things rather warm in the kitchen in summer , i just lived with the door open .
Mine didn't have a back boiler but you can get them and i think they will do upto about 5 radiators plus hot water .
I always go for solid fuel ie woodburner , rayburn etc as i live off of the system , no money , and if times get hard you can burn twigs , driftwood , cardboard even wooden furniture ( yes i have done that in the past ) .
But with gas , oil you need loadsa £ upfront and it runs out at the wrong time .
A good mix would be a gas cooker and rayburn
and a woodburner .
The gas burner you could just use when it is too hot for the rayburn . A big bottle of gas could last 6-12 months , depending on how much use it got .
I have woodland plus access to more wood if i need it , but i would always think about cost and availability . I can always get wood but can't just get gas or oil or leccy .
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I would love a tiny house with the option of cooking on multi fuel if necessary but with a gas cooker as stand buy and a multi fuel burner or open fires for heating the house...I am happy enough without central heating providing the house is small and insulated enough and there is multifuel or natural heat. I actualy prefer a cold bedroom and also prefer a single sorce of heat rather than the entire house the same temperature, but thats me.
I think around here there is always stuff to burn, big or little bits...as long as you have time, the main issue is feeding the things, go out for a while and so do they!!!
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As in most things you have to pay one way or another, effort or cash!! Have been thinking about this on and off for 2 years and still not decided! Not normally so indecisive. Wish I had more idea :-\ been quoted 10k for installation of oil, need the works, tank, boiler radiators, pipes, does that sound right?
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Can't help there , i am off grid , don't do money .
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To pick up a few points from this thread.
Rayburn wil run 5 radiators plus hot water. How big are the radiators? A bit like saying yes this car will pull a caravan. How big is the caravan?
If a Rayburn is not run at the right temperature, ie hot enough, condensation forms on the boiler and it rots, to the point where it leaks all over the floor. Very expensive to replace the boiler, if you can find an engineer mad enough to attempt it. Did one, said I'd never do it again, did it again, but never did a third.
A wood burner absolutely must be installed correctly or you'll find you have water boiling in the pipes. Assuming it has a back boiler. All pipes must be sized correctly to cope with carrying the heat away from the appliance. Same applies to any boiler / cooker boiler.
All wood must be seasoned.
Copper prices are through the roof at the minute so your pipework will be expensive.
12 years ago I'd price a heating system at £250 per radiator plus the cost of the boiler.
And lastly - whatever you have in - get an installer that knows how to put it in properly or you might just as we'll burn the money, at least you'd get one efficient lot of heat.
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Ouch!
We're in a similar situation, in that all we have for heating is an old Esse coal fired range. Whilst this does heat the house fairly well (if inefficiently), we found it totally impractical for cooking since by the time we got in from work and got it up to cooking temperature, it was time for bed!
We now do most of our cooking on a standard gas hob / oven, which was modified to run on bottled gas. This uses far less gas than you might think - about 2 x 47kg propane per year, at a cost of about £130 if you shop around.
Definitely worth a thought, and would decouple your cooking from the house heating, since you don't necessarily want to do both simultaneously at all times and in all seasons!
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What i said was " i think they will do upto about 5 radiators , plus hot water ".
I wasn't giving a quote moley , just tryng to help . It would also vary dependant on what type of wood was being burnt , oak , ash , pine etc etc , also what type of coal , how much draw the chimney had , how windy it was .
With the car and caravan you didn't mention whether the car was petrol or deisel , 4x4 or 2 wheel drive , or if the caravan was single or twin axle ? , or if the main use would be on motorway , a or b roads .
Also how many people would be in the car , and how much do they weigh ?
Sometimes you just don't need that much information , lol , you research that yourself .
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I would second the idea of using propane for cooking. I would get a woodburner instead of an open fire (much more efficient), but if you have to buy wood it's still not that cheap. If you get a woodburner it's certainly worth having a back boiler to heat water (and maybe radiators, depending on how big it is) IMHO, although, if you're all-electric then you will probably need a new hot water tank to use with the woodburner.
I can't see how new German storage heaters could be any cheaper to run than old (english?) ones, and if they're not on E7 then they can only be more expensive to run.
Have you insulated the house as far as possible? If not then insulation measures should be the best investment - 4" of foam on walls & ceiling (& floor if posss) along with good windows and draft-proofing make a huge difference to the heat retaining ability of a house - and insulation can be done DIY, unlike boilers and stoves.
There are no cheap heating sources nowadays unless you have access to a renewable source (and they can be pricey to setup). If it were me, I would look at how much insulation I could do for 10K before I spent it on a heating system.
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... if times get hard you can burn twigs , driftwood...
Don't burn driftwood from the sea - gives off some VERY dangerous chemicals
"Burning driftwood can produce polychlorinated dibenzodioxins (PCDDs), also known as the misnomer "dioxins", which are carcinogenic. For this reason burning driftwood is not recommended.[1] The formation of PCDDs is well documented when organic compounds are combusted in the presence of chlorine, which is present in driftwood as a result of soaking in seawater"
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Don't burn driftwood from the sea - gives off some VERY dangerous chemicals
:o I had heard that before but forgot
I also see people advertise old fences and sheds for fire wood, they have treatments on too and are often Toxic......some years ago my husband lit a fire as we always have an open fire at weekends...well nearly always, we had a guest and it was cosy until he put some old fence on the fire and stunk us all out...he has no idea but is learning fast!!
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I have insulated the loft and the walls are now cavity filled so that has helped I'm sure. Wondered about puting in a double sided woodburner maybe? It would then heat the hall, if the connecting doors are left open would filter through to bedrooms possibly, then also other side would heat the sitting room maybe stretch to kitchen area too.
Would need approx 12 radiators in system if put in central heating, bungalow, 25 years old. Know what you mean about car and caravan, its clearly not an easy question to answer! Thanks.
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We moved last year to this cottage, storage heaters in every room, no gas but still had original chimney at one end of sitting room. Anyway we installed a multi fuel stove which has made a huge difference. We didn't remove the storage heaters as they are there as a back up should we need them. In the kitchen we're going to put in a plinth heater for as and when we need additional heat. I wedge open the 2 unused bedroom doors to let them get some heat in. I'll continue ordering coal through the summer so I've stocked up for the winter.
AnnS
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Thanks Ann, I ve been away this last week or so and took my electric reading. EDF have just told me my bill, how they manage to make it the same as last month I've no idea. Dont understand as I switched everything off apart from the fridge/freezer. So think that they decide what they are going to charge you regardless. Would hate to leave storage heaters in if they continue to charge me when I dont use them.
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Another tip is not to heat the whole house, just those rooms in daily use, if you are using radiators, then keep doors closed to keep the heat in. We don't usually heat our bedroom, unless someone is ill, as we prefer a thick duvet and cold air to breathe. Our house is very small so we don't have rooms we never use, but in a larger house you may have.
We also only turn the heating on to deal with a bit of chill (otherwise we light the wood burner) rather than running them continuously. We have found though that it's cheaper to have the water on a thermostat and keep it at the same temp all the time (our water heating is linked to the oil-fired central heating, not a back boiler with the wood burner).
Then of course there's wool - you would expect me to mention this :spin: :knit: :eyelashes: . Wear as many natural wool garments as you comfortably can, so the temp you need your rooms to be at is lower ie you can set your heating thermostat a couple of degrees less, or pile less wood on the fire. It seems to be that many people now wear summer weight garments in winter and rely on their heating systems to keep them warm indoors - very wasteful. Wool is wonderful stuff, you can't match it with synthetics and if you keep sheep then it's FREE :thumbsup:
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As others have said INSULATION INSULATION.
If you have a free or cheap supply of wood then there are several types of stoves you can buy that will run a central heating system. It gets complicated if you want hot water and a dual fuel system that will heat your water when the fire is not lit.
I must show you how much wood you will need for a winter - to run 8 rads over 3 floors in a stone building that we have insulated with double glazed windows and a few dry linned exterior walls. It is very hard work to cut, split and move this ammount of wood but then we do not have to pay for it.
(http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/kSfftiMex1bIncCUTwEzFJowk0TIS2lpSTvDJ7JX62Y=w276-h207-p-no)
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Hi from Shropshire
Interesting stream of comments, can I add my bit,
Our previous house had an open fire, this ventilated the house beuatifully, full blaze in grate and you struggled to keep lounge door shut (howling gale round door). We had to close all the upstairs doors to try and keep the heat downstairs.
So we fitted an 8Kw logburner, complete reversal of situation, we had to open all the upstairs doors to vent the heat. We could warm the whole house from the log burner. Then I got clever :idea: too clever. Fitted a boiler to logburner and installed a complete hot water system (under guidance from plumber) learnt a lot very quickly. However the perfomance of the logburner changed completely; the boiler absorbed a lot of energy so that we no longer heated the house.
Our present house has a dual fuel stove which heats the house beautifully, I have no intention of making changes to it.
I agree with MAK, a winters firewood is about 8 tons of seasoned timber, however you can build this up over the summer by collecting pallets, dipping skips, being on good terms with local tree surgeons.
SV.
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Remember, you have to have somewhere to store all this wood as it takes time to dry and doesn't appear regularly (best to have too much than too little!)
MAK - you're going to have to stop posting that picture... making me feel very inadequate! :D
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Will add my two-penneth too.
We have a large 4 bed ex-council house in the middle of the countryside - it is the end one of 6 with single skin walls (no cavity) and big windows which at least are double glazed. We inherited ancient storage heaters which were more or less useless, a firred up water tank with immersion and a rayburn which only worked as an open fire. To put it bluntly the house was freezing in winter except for the lounge and the electric cost us a fortune. No gas in our village and reluctant to install oil due to costs and upheaval. Downstairs is open kitchen/diner/lounge. We went for the following solution.
1. Small central heating system upstairs with an electric central heating unit which runs up to 8 radiators. We have radiators on landing, hall, 4 bedrooms and bathroom plus one in dining room.
2. A highly efficient water tank which is linked to the heating unit - this currently comes on for a hour between 6-7am 4 days a week and this provides enough water for 2 of us to shower all week. We usually need a couple of extra hours when my son is home from university. The water-tank can also heat directly from the electric with an immersion in the tank and it also has the option to connect to a solar panel later if we decide to invest in one.
2. 10.5KW Hunter wood burner with door on both ends - we opened up the chimney breast on both sides so that the burner faces into dining room and lounge thereby heating our entire ground floor living rooms. We looked into having a back-boiler for the heating but this would have meant we couldn't open up the chimney breast on both sides.
Also - we were advised that if we had a back-boiler the first hour or two of heat generated when we lit the wood burner after work would be diverted into warming the central heating system so the effects of the wood burner in the living rooms would take a while to work. With an independent wood burner the heat pumps straight into the room - which it certainly does! It seems that back-boilers are good if you can keep the wood-burner fed over longer periods of time - but if like us you get in from work about 6pm most evenings it would feel like the room just got warm before we headed for bed!
We are also lucky that my hubby is a gardener and all wood that he removes from gardens make it back to ours for our wood pile - we managed to get through all of last winter without actually purchasing any logs! However, the heat output is not always as good as with well seasoned logs - but it's free so who's complaining? :thumbsup:
Donna
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A good stove will be losing its heat to the room or it's water jacket.
A water jacket ( central heating system) is essentially a cooling system for the stove so this means that less heat is given out to the room that the stove is sat in. I think of temperature as I do water trying to find a level or run down hill. If you reduce the temp' gradient then you can retain heat for example in a closed room - but as soon as you open the door the massive temp gradient between a warm and cold room will cool down the heated room. We heat the house so that heat is absorbed into the fabric of the house. The stone floors and thick stone walls act like a heat sink and we seem to use less fuel by doing this. If we go away for a few days then it will take several days to warm up the house and get some heat back into the stone walls etc
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Sorry Spandit ! :innocent:
I'll take a new picture once we have got all the wood for next year brought back. I have piles of logs all over the soddin place. My neighbours have strips of land and woods all over the area and keep telling me of a tree that fell in 1997 or 2002 etc that is hung up on other trees and that I can cut down. The rain has preveted us from collecting the logs this last 3 weeks and the forecast is of more to come. Watch out for the "new log pile" photo - it will be a big un ! ( juts hope I can stack some away for future years).
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MAK, my husband has pile envey too :innocent:
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You just wait in 6 years time when I harvest my alder (that isn't planted yet) :D
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I wondered, when you say you have electric heating upstairs if it is on a day and night tarriff Donna? Also I cannot control my immersion at it goes on at 11.30 in the evening and stays on till 7.30am. Unless I physically get up and turn it off. This is so wastefull as there is now only me in the house. I like the idea of a double doored woodburner, what make did you go for?
I do wear layers and find having to wear 3 jumpers all year round is so annoying, in the highlands, we are still getting late frosts!
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I wondered, when you say you have electric heating upstairs if it is on a day and night tarriff Donna? Also I cannot control my immersion at it goes on at 11.30 in the evening and stays on till 7.30am. Unless I physically get up and turn it off. This is so wastefull as there is now only me in the house. I like the idea of a double doored woodburner, what make did you go for?
I do wear layers and find having to wear 3 jumpers all year round is so annoying, in the highlands, we are still getting late frosts!
We had a 7 day timer fitted with up to 3 on/off options per day and the same again for the water heater. I haven't got it on a day/night tariff - we were pursuing one with Scottish Power which didn't come off and I haven't got my act together again to sort one out. I am now waiting to see if we get the farm or not - if we don't then I will look into it again.
Our wood burner is a hunter - which apart from the 'standard size one door options' tend to be made to order - ours has a single glass door on each end. It was £1700 :( but was worth every penny to be honest. We had a very good local installer put it in. A word of warning though - the necessary chimney liner for a multi-fuel burner is expensive (£70/metre) and we needed 10 metres for a straight run up to the roof. It was something we hadn't budgeted for so it caught us out a bit!
Just a thought - does your immersion plug in, if so you could get one of those plug-in timers. Otherwise wouldn't it be worth getting an electrician to install a timer just for now - I bet it would cover the cost of installation very quickly if your immersion is on overnight.
And I remember well the wearing of many clothes indoors and ice on the inside of windows, even though they were double glazed!!
Donna
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Just a thought - does your immersion plug in, if so you could get one of those plug-in timers. Otherwise wouldn't it be worth getting an electrician to install a timer just for now - I bet it would cover the cost of installation very quickly if your immersion is on overnight.
We had a similar problem - couldn't work out why the meter was going round and round when we were in bed with all the lights off. It turned out that our immersion timer was broken, so I replaced it with one of these (http://www.screwfix.com/p/lap-digital-weekly-immersion-timer-240v/96608). It was pretty straightforward to fit, and I'm no expert electrician. (In other words an expert electrician would have it done in 10 minutes!).
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we have installed a Lincar Ilaria
http://www.pipinghotstoves.com/index.php/lincar-ilaria-wood-burning-cooker.html (http://www.pipinghotstoves.com/index.php/lincar-ilaria-wood-burning-cooker.html)
it's been great after decades of coal fires. it's a bit of a science in itself to maintain the temperature if I want to bake a cake in it but I have done so successfully in the winter. it is connected to one radiator , a second planned. it heats the water in one part of the house. the only downside is that it should not be used without the pump working (when we have no power) and my original idea had been to use it exactly then for cooking etc....can't have it all but generally we are very pleased with it. :&>