The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Poultry & Waterfowl => Topic started by: HesterF on May 20, 2013, 11:41:22 am
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I was checking my duck eggs in the incubator last night and noticed a small crack in the pointy end of one egg. I hoped it wasn't trying to hatch that end but have just checked again and could see a little beak. So he's not pipped internally but is trying to come straight out. I've broken the membrane by his beak so he has air (and have sprayed the egg and put it straight back in the humid incubator so his moisture is still high) but is there anything else I can do? Presumably he needs that extra space from the air sack to turn? And why is he coming out that way? Am guessing it's like breech babies and some just are but it would be good to know if there's more to it than that.
Thanks,
H
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I have had several hatch this way, both ducks and chickens, and 9 times out 10, they make it out ok. No idea why it happens. Last hatch I had 3 out of 7 come out that way! I would just let nature take it's course. You can do more harm than good helping them out.
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Hi,the usual reason for this happening,is incorrect turning of the eggs or the pointy end of the egg is set higher than the round end.
Graham.
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Thanks both. They're on their sides (and have been throughout) so can't be that. I may have been overturning them. They've been on a cradle for most of the time which goes 90° back and forth but I've also been turning them end over back and forth twice a day (over the blunt end iykwim) because I've had goose eggs in with them at times (all infertile as it turned out).
I'm trying to be hands off and telling myself all will be well but I'm clearly a fiddler by nature - have had a couple of picks at the hole so far!
H
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Hi,the only eggs I have ever had this happen to have been water fowl.the chicks move into the correct position in the last few days,I think excessive turning then could be the cause.But when you a are not quite when they are going to hatch as they varies so much it can be difficult to know when to stop.The strange thing is they seem to hatch just as well.
My embdens are still laying,there eggs have been very fertile.I 17 adults with as many ganders as geese.I also have gosling's for sale some hatched today.
Graham.
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You've done well with your geese - just not my season. Mine are West of England so I'll not confuse matters by bringing in Embdens (sweet as your hatchlings look!). I've got a second unrelated pair of WofE to pick up from Devon so I hope for better things next year. My current pair is last year's hatch anyway so they're both still young - think they just didn't suss the physical side of it. Given my issues with hatching duck eggs, I'm quite relieved not to have to worry about geese which sound even more challenging. At least with infertile eggs, it's clearly nothing to do with my humidity or turning skills! I do still want to come and see your set up sometime though - are you still planning to hatch any more goose eggs this year?
H
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I think it is important not to keep turning the eggs in the same direction when turning them 180 degrees end over. The cord that keeps the embryo suspended can get wound up if the egg always goes in the same direction.
Only found that out this year and have had 100 percent hatching success with my latest Chinese geese eggs. So I hope this is why and future hatchlings will be just as good.
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Was quite careful to just turn back and forth over the blunt end so it wasn't over and over in the same direction. I did my best to be mum goose but in the case of the goose eggs it was all irrelevant anyway. And in the case of the duck eggs, their little heads were probably spinning from the back and forth, side to side stuff! I took them off the rocker and stopped turning them on Saturday night which was before any of them pipped externally so I hope that was OK.
H
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Hi,Don't be so hard on your self Hesterf,you sound like you are doing a good job to me.Yes I will loading the incy up again tomorrow,I also have some more eggs in the incy due to hatch in 2 weeks time.I don't think the geese will be laying much longer.
Susannah I agree its probably not best to keep turning an egg in the same direction but you will only wind the cords up that hold the yoke in place if you revolve the egg as the chords are attached top and bottom.That is why its recommended to turn them end over end.
Graham.
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Think I need a separate hatcher (cue husband's sharp intake of breath). I've got it set at 80% humidity but the membrane is still drying out (brinsea octagon so forced air). I've got five Cayuga's pipped (two at the wrong end) and none of them are making any progress without me helping (and I did wait 24 hours on the first to pip before chipping away a bit). Turning into a nightmare.
H
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Hi,there have been loads of people this year having problems with thick membranes this year,I had problems early on,which I put down to the bad weather and the eggs getting chilled.
Are you putting water in your incy right from the beginning or are you running dry.I don't find running dry to be very good for water fowl eggs,I find you need a humidity of about 50% right through and 70%+ for the hatch.
But I am always ready to help ducks or geese hatch if necessary,let them pip then if they aren't making any progress after a few hours give them a hand.
Graham.
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Ran dry with spraying at turning for the first week (no working cradle at that point so manual turning four or five times a day), weighed, realised they were losing too much weight, put humidity up to 45% plus spraying, weighed again a week later and they were still losing too much weight (10% at the half way mark vs. 14% target for full term) so whacked up the humidity to 60% for the second half (plus spraying). That slowed the weight loss but maybe the first half has taken its toll. I have no idea why they lost so much - I had the same problem before under broodies when five out of six failed to hatch (and didn't even pip). I live an old, damp house so it's not even as if it's a dry environment. My kitchen is currently 16 degrees with 60% humidity.
Anyhow the good news is that two Cayugas are out and resting - one entirely with my help, one I cleared the end and he got out. Three more I'm working with. The sixth Cayuga is cheeping but no pip and the first Aylesbury has pipped now. Could be a long couple of days though - there are another four Aylesburys and seven of my Silver Appleyards to worry about (although some are looking decidedly dodgy on candling).
H
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I've left my geese to hatch their own, so wouldn't know about the overturning problems, but it doesn't sound like you've done that anyway.
With chickens, you need to check a variety of causes of wrong-end hatchings, including diet and genetics. Some hens simply don't form eggs right, and some fathers and mothers carry genes that cause deaths in shell or incorrect hatching due to congenital malpositioning. For instance (not sure if I've mixed up the left and right) chickens are supposed to approach hatching with their heads under one wing, left I think, and if it's under the other wing a lot of hatching failures result, and that's an inherited problem.
If you keep getting wrongly-hatched chicks and you're sure it's not your incubator-handling doing it, then you'd need to revise their diet or genetic lines. You may be running some breeders who aren't all they seem to promise. Best wishes.
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Hi,I think your problems with the suck chicks and thick membrane is definitely down to running the incy dry early on.I set the humidity on mine to 50% right from the start,the up to 70+ % for the hatch,I also spray the eggs with water 3 times a day when I turn them.I have experimented with running dry and it just don't work for water fowl.Its fine for chickens.
Turning goose and duck eggs,I turn mine buy hand only,I turn them end over end 3 times a day,sometimes only twice if I'm away at work.
Here is a list of possible causes of chicks hatching the wrong end.This is from a document from the University of Florida.
Chicks malpositioned. Normal position
after 19 days of incubation: embryo's long axis
same as long axis of egg; head in large end of
egg; head to the right and under right wing;
beak toward air cell; feet toward head. Causes:
1. Eggs set small end up or in horizontal
position.
2. Inadequate or improper turning.
3. High or low incubator temperature.
4. High humidity.
5. Old breeders.
6. Round-shaped eggs or very large eggs.
7. Nutritional deficiencies, especially vitamin
A and vitamin B12.
8. Eggs handled or stored improperly.
9. Retarded development.
10. Embryos <18 days old may be in a position
different from that for hatching but one
normal for their age (for example, the
head-between-thighs position). The
feet-over-head position is hard to
distinguish and may be normal. The
beak-over-wing position is probably a
normal variant. Some malpositions are
lethal; others are not.
Graham.
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Well an update. It's been a long couple of days. All of the ducklings are having problems hatching - not just those at the wrong end (and there have been several). Now I'm starting to help as soon as they pip. So far I've 'delivered' six out of six Cayuga from bought in hatching eggs (all healthy, happy chappies except for one dodgy foot, now splinted), two out of five Aylesbury also from bought in eggs (and of those one has since died, the other three were all late in the day dead in shell, no pip) and two out of five Silver Appleyards from my own eggs. The other three Appleyards are on their way out - all the Appleyards are later because they were all originally under the broody so they've gone cold at some point which I guess delays matters.
My control sample is two more Silver Appleyards that have been under a broody virtually the entire time (bar a few hours one day when I'd found them cold and put them in the incubator to warm through). One of these has pipped so I'm leaving it to see whether it makes it out on its own - or with her help. If it doesn't, then my hatching problem is further reaching than incubator humidity.
I'm sure hatching ducks is not supposed to be this traumatic. Looking at that list, I can't see that any apply except that the eggs are in a horizontal position - but they would be in nature too?
Aaaarrrrgggghhh!
H
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Hi,just keep the humidity up next time to 50% and then over 70% for the last 3 days.The hatching problems are caused by the membrane drying out to much and turning rubbery.
Graham.
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Must be more to it - the ones under the broody are also having problems (one of them is the wrong end too). The good news is that the ducklings are all coming out OK (fingers crossed seven out of seven Appleyards are still alive with two of them half hatched & the rest now out). Just odd that the eggs have come from three different sources (from different parts of the country) and been incubated in two different ways. These will be my last duck hatches for this year so I hope next year will be easier....
H