The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Buffy the eggs layer on May 15, 2013, 05:45:46 pm
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Hi,
has anyone adjusted their lambing cycle from march lambing to january lambing? I would like to lamb earlier next year than I did last year but I'm thinking I will have to do it incrementally over a couple of years.
I want to use one of this years ram lambs on my shearlings and as he was born at the end of march Im thinking that the end of Sept would be the earliest thet he would be ready. Equally the ewes that lambed this year at the end of march will need to wean the lambs off, dry up and then be flushed so probably end of Oct?
Any thoughts? :thinking:
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Moved from april to february this year & ewes seemed to cope ok without much of a break in between weaning and tupping.You could take the lambs off a bit earlier this year to help them recover although depending on breed lambing in jan could effect %.
The biggest downside was the very long wait for grass to start growing this year after using up my own haylage and having to feed cake for so long. Would certainly need to get lambs away at a good price to make it worthwhile.
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I have decided to go for a month later next year and lamb around Easter time in April. I lambed in March this year but the weather was pants, as was the lack of any grass whatsoever. I really like to get my lambs out after a couple of days and hope that mid April next year will give me a better chance of this. However, looking at the current weather I don't think any month in early Spring can be relied upon now to provide nice weather. I have lambed in January before, but the extra straw, feed and the length of time keeping everything in and clean was not something I want to repeat in a hurry.
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I am timing mine for when the clocks go forward - that extra hour of daylight just makes life so much easier. And, hopefully, the weather a little warmer :fc: .
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If you talk to your vet they can insert sponges into the ewes which release hormones, drugs are also injected to help make the ewes come into heat, the sponges are removed at a certain time say 10am and the you wait a few days I think and put out the tup at 10am. The ewes should be in season and willing to mate. The tup has to be ready and able though to!
Excuse the approximate details as its years since I've seen it done, but I'm considering trying it this year as the bad weather at tupping time extended my lambing well beyond my holiday from work. The ewes should all lamb within 6days of there due date.
Hopefully I might avoid the dreaded midge too. :relief: But not the bill
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Thanks for your thoughts on this one. You are right about the availability of grass with the later lambing. Perhaps Jan is a bit too early. Its just that I keep a pure breed and other breeders seem to lamb much earlier than me which means their ram lambs show better through the summer and sell better in the autum as they have a 12 week head start on mine.
Your comments are all very valid though as my lambs grow very big and solid from the amount of fresh new grass that they and their mothers eat. I guess you would have to shovel cake down the ewes to achive the same effect as sunshine and good grass. Plus keeping them inside is never really going to do them as much good as getting them out and about.
I lambed from the 26th March to 29th this year so perhaps I should just try for early march next year and see what the winter weather throws at me.
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Btel,
I think a lot depends on what facilities you have.
This year I allowed mine free access to a large area of a barn and most of the ewes made good use of it. Some chose to lamb inside, some in the shelter of the barn but outside. I put up 6 pens along one wall and put the new lambs and mum inside for a few nights depending on the size of the lambs. In bad weather the lambs took themselves in there in little groups and picked their favourite spots to sleep.
But if I was lambing outside, I would stick to a later lambing.
Also heard in the ag store today that a lot of the early flocks had the dreaded SBV. Staff member said one client had lost thousands of lambs. A neighbour of mine has lost an estimated 40% of lambs from a Feb. lambing :( .
But if you want lambs for showing....it has to be an early lambing ;)
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You can also use a melatonin implant which can bring your ewes into oestrous up to two months early. Not sure but I think the sponges just synchronise the lambing. If you use the implants you need to make sure your tup is ready too, so a down breed would be needed. The implant is called regulin.
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If there was a year I wouldn't give the ewes less rest after lambing it is 2013 - 2012 was hard enough on the ewes as it is.
Showing is a fun hobby, but I wouldn't put extra pressure on your ewes just to take part in it.
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Actually Steve showing sheep is an integral part of promoting rare and minority breeds as well as marketing flocks with stock for sale. It may be a hobby for yourself but it is an essental part of a marketing plan for many who make money from their sheep and are committed to developing and increasing interest in their breed.
I'm sorry to hear that your ewes had a hard year as mine didnt. My ewes went into tupping in very good condition. I had lots of grass as I under stock, no snow and very little frost. I feed and give addlib hay to my ewes, fertilise and lime my pasture and reserve pasture to ensure the ewes and lambs have access to fresh grass as soon as they are born. I have field shelters, dry ground and a large lambing shed which leads to a sheltered pasture so my sheep are all on top form.
Changing the lambing cycle to finish lambs earlier in the year has a number of advantages for shepherds who sell their stock or slaughter for the freezer in addition to showing so I think its something that will be concidering.
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Around me lambing seems to start February now but it is done inside. Seems that the farmers get good prices for lambs that are ready to go July. Last year we had an early Spring so grass grew well but this year due to poor weather farmers have struggled to feed ewes and lambs which is all extra cost. All that needs to be taken into account if you plan to lamb early. Here we are well into May and grass is still slow to come on.
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We show, and get our lambs off early to catch the Easter market. It was a lot harder this year due to the weather and yes you do have to feed cake as the grass is just not there.
The showing is to a certain extent our shop window although for our breed i would say we sell most from the farm gate via reputation than from the show ring.
if you can pull your lambs off a little early then sponge you should be ok to bring them forward for an earlier lambing. but looking at the grass we have now, it's got to be easier to lamb later and save yourself the feed bill. I know ours was almost crippling this year :(
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I feed and give addlib hay to my ewes, fertilise and lime my pasture and reserve pasture to ensure the ewes and lambs have access to fresh grass as soon as they are born. I have field shelters, dry ground and a large lambing shed which leads to a sheltered pasture so my sheep are all on top form.
....and this is why showing is a fun hobby that has nothing whatsoever to do with commercial sheep farming. Commercial flocks simply cannot be run on this basis and make money. This is why buyers are turning to things like EBVs when buying rams and buying off-farm from breeders who have built reputations.
I like to see sheep shown but on a commercial basis they only serve as an example of what can be achieved when sheep are fred concs and cabbages and often, are helped at birth. I was gobsmacked talking to a terminal sire breeder once at how many ceasarians they consider to be acceptable.
2012 was widely agreed to be the worst year for British farming since 1962 and even if you were feeding your sheep even then the sheep had to endure the weather and the worms. I live in an area least-affected by the poor weather, stock at 3 ewes/ac in summer, 1-1.5/ac in winter and, by happy accident put my rams in 2 weeks late so that I started lambing April 15th. I didn't lose any in the snow like so many farmers did and I didn't have to feed until early April like most farmers did, my ground is pretty much fluke-free and I didn't have any problems in what has been considered to be the worst year for fluke in the last century.
Even with all those things in my favour, 2012 was a very hard year on my sheep, and if it wasn't on yours then you are in the tiny minority. The fallen stock companies had to cart tens of thousands of dead sheep in the upland areas of this country, as some posters on here will attest.
I would argue that showing has been to the detriment of most breeds - even the rare ones and especially those which have something to offer the national flock in terms of thrift (primitives and so on) and ease of lambing as these cannot be judged for in the ring. It is not a hobby for me, I only have two recognised 'breeds' of sheep, the rest are composites and I am not interested in breeding them for any of the attributes that win rosettes in the show ring.
Look at the post above mine - Feldar is in my area so will have had similar weather to me and shows sheep, lambs indoors and has had to feed extensiveley etc and has also had a hard year of it. Were I in the market for a Hampshire Down as a terminal sire, I would go and look at her stock over because of reputation rather than rosettes. I would certainly be very very puzzled if I spoke to a breeder who claimed that their sheep were in top nick after 2012.
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That was a very sound argument Steve, and has confirmed my intention to lamb in April :thumbsup:
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I don't know Stevehants but I am always interested in what he has stay as it it is always well thought out!!!
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I also agree with SteveHants.
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:roflanim: .
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Have to say we have had a hideous year. I do have some sheep in great condition but more who are lacking weight and have really struggled. And that is after introducing a little and often feeding regime which meant we were out in all weathers 3 times a day. And to me it says it all that the mills could not keep pace with demand and the result was a shortage of sheep food. Never before have I seen the local Farmers co-ops with empty storage sheds.
So far as the timing of your lambing is concerned speak to your vet please. I know Schmallenberg may not have reached you yet but the probability is that it will. And the general experience in this area is that it was the early lambers who were worst affected.
I do show and like Feldar I regard it as a shop window for us. But I would much rather accept that my lambs are not going to do well in the show ring, particularly early in the year, and concentrate on showing the shearlings, than place additional pressure and risks on my ewes.
And sadly, in common with many in this area, I lost sheep during the last few horrible months.
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I would argue that showing has been to the detriment of most breeds - even the rare ones and especially those which have something to offer the national flock in terms of thrift (primitives and so on) and ease of lambing as these cannot be judged for in the ring.
I'm with Steve. Sheep need to be "fit-for-purpose". If their purpose is to look pretty then that's fine, but if their purpose is to be a sustainable resource for meat or milk then that's another. I don't think plying sheep with man-made feeds and chemicals and medicines are a sustainable activity in the long term.
I wouldn't choose an animal from a show ring, I would want to know the flock health history and the management and culling regime that the farmer uses. Showing should be more like ... "Here's my lovely looking animal, and here's it's "service history" that proves that it is as good as it looks". (sorry for the car analogy!)
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I would agree with all that is said. The showing is a hobby BUT it does highlight to the public in general what breeds there are about and brings it all out there for them to see. It would be a great shame to have an agricultural show without so many great breeds of sheep! it would just be a Sunday market.
I think now the trend is going away from breeding sheep that are stuffed with grub. Yes it does still happen of course but certainly in the Hamp society we have worked long and hard to re-educate breeders from doing this, and EBVs are a big part of the Hamps and other societies' remit for being " Fit for Purpose"
At Devon this year the fattest certainly didn't win!!
There is no point in buying a ram which melts the minuit you get it home.
I would personally be very suprised if someone wanted to buy my stock without a farm visit first.
That said we lamb early, yes to get the show team but also to catch that first Easter market and are quite often rung up by buyers who want to know when our lambs will be ready. We then lamb again a commercial flock in March /April to a much less intensive system. So it's really what works for you and on your ground.
I think anyone who has stuck out 2012/2013 needs a huge pat on the back i can't remember there being a year like it, though my husband tells me 1963 was a terrible year too, but i will just have to take his word for it :-J my mum was practising at producing me then :D
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I think the figure I read recently of 20,000 sheep over the norm being sent for disposal this year as a result of death on farms, speaks for itself with regards to how hard both last year and early this years weather has taken affect on livestock. Showing any type of animal can surely only be seen as a hobby/enjoyable pastime and I can not believe that there are many people who show their animals believing that it is an integral part of marketing their animals. Having shown both dogs and horses over many years, it is certainly not something that has ever entered my mind - I just enjoyed showing them and the preparation beforehand, but it was a hobby and nothing more than that. There is not one farmer I have spoken in my area who can say they have had a good time of it over the past year - one farmer I know lost 60 lambs to SBV and then a load of his ewes contracted something from the silage they were eating, and he lost a load more. The grass has not really grown - even now, it is in very short supply where I live and even the trees are still struggling to come out in to leaf. My ewes will be getting an extra month or so before the next tupping to give them a bit more recovery time and I am not above keeping back from tupping at all if she is in a very poor state and then putting her in the following season. The welfare of my animals is paramount to me as I am sure it is to all.
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Hi,
has anyone adjusted their lambing cycle from march lambing to january lambing? I would like to lamb earlier next year than I did last year but I'm thinking I will have to do it incrementally over a couple of years.
I want to use one of this years ram lambs on my shearlings and as he was born at the end of march Im thinking that the end of Sept would be the earliest thet he would be ready. Equally the ewes that lambed this year at the end of march will need to wean the lambs off, dry up and then be flushed so probably end of Oct?
Any thoughts? :thinking:
Wow - after some well thought out and helpful (to me anyway!) comments and advice on early lambing, this post seems to have changed to sheer bigotry :rant: . I always thought the idea of a forum was to gain from other people's experience and advice and that one was then free to make up one's own mind. So why should anyone rubbish Buffy's desire to show as an intregal part of her marketing stategy? It may not fit in with your ideals or even ability, but surely there's no need to belittle it, just because it isn't your "thing". :thinking:
Anyway, I just thought I'd add my 2pennorth.
I would agree Buffy - your March born lamb will be far too young to use for your purposes this year; but then I think you'd already come to that conclusion.
I, like you, have not had any detrimental effects on my flock due to the bad winter, so really it is fairly irelevant to your proposals.
I believe you produce Ryelands, a terminal sire, and so even if you didn't show them, then I would think it beneficial to bring your lambing forward so that you can sell your rams as lambs, for use in their year of birth. That way you would achieve the same price as for a shearling, and it would save you keeping them over for another year. And good luck with the showing - it's a great way of showcasing your stock. I can't believe people still think you have to stuff food in and produce an obese animal in order to get a prize. The prize goes not to the fattest, but to that with the best shape for its particular job, and shown in prime condition due to OPTIMUM not MAXIMUM feeding. (And I have the cup and rosettes to back this up!)
Stevehants - I believe you have Wiltshire Horns, or Easycare or similar, which are a maternal breed and therefore a different ballgame altogether, and you would probably not gain to the same extent by lambing earlier or showing. In fact clearly from your posts, it would appear that your land and possibly your facilities are not ideal for either.
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Never shown sheep so excuse me if I am talking rubbish but if I was judging I would not be looking for a pretty one. should it not be one that stands out as being a very good example of the breed. Good body etc,
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Stevehants - I believe you have Wiltshire Horns, or Easycare or similar, which are a maternal breed and therefore a different ballgame altogether, and you would probably not gain to the same extent by lambing earlier or showing. In fact clearly from your posts, it would appear that your land and possibly your facilities are not ideal for either.
Yes - but I am a ram buyer. My commercial flock (easycares etc) go to a terminal sire (currently SufTex). If you read my original response, it did answer the OP - I would nor bring my lambing cycle forward coming off the back of 2012, especially if the only purpose for doing it was to produce animals for showing, which, like I said, is nice to do, but that is all it is. I was then told that 'showing sheep is an integral part of promoting rare and minority breeds as well as marketing flocks with stock for sale'. I disagree with this statement and I think I posted a fairly comprehensive answer as to why.
I expect my commercial lambs to finish off grass, because this is the most profitable way to produce lambs, and I am running a business, the purpose of which is to maximise my margins. I, like more and more ram buyers do not want to buy terminal sires produced for the show ring. I will buy as follows (accepting, saldy that I cannot buy an outdoor bred terminal sire, apart from if I went to Innovis, I think) - I will use word of mouth to find who has a good reputation for producing terminal sires on grass only, I will then go to the farm and see how the system looks compared to mine (I have to trust that the ram breeder isn't feeding, but obviously, if I go in april and I see creep feeders out, then I will be walking away). I will then and only then look at the animals, having picked a few I like from the EBV sheet, I will then narrow my choice down whilst looking at the rams. More and more people are buying rams like this preciseley because buying show rams is a lottery, and so many buyers are having rams melt away/produce slow-growing offspring as soon as they are run commercially.
I'm sorry if you think that I am bigoted for disagreeing with the notion that showing is an important part of producing terminal sire breeds, but I do - and the purposes of an internet forum are to discsuss ones views.
You will also note that quite a few people agreed with me.
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just an idea - why not breed your best ewes early in hope for showring beasts, and then breed majority of the flock later on?
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Never shown sheep so excuse me if I am talking rubbish but if I was judging I would not be looking for a pretty one. should it not be one that stands out as being a very good example of the breed. Good body etc,
Exactly Sabrina - you have nicely described the whole point of showing, which is to emphasise whatever you would expect in any breed.
So for a terminal sire the animal should be a good size and shape, and I'm sorry Steve but a poorly finished animal that has not had sufficient food to show its potential is not going to impress anybody. If the animal is going to be your flock ram you want to see that it is capable of siring lambs that will fetch a good price in market. You don't want to just guess that its genetics are right - you want to see it for yourself. Else why would you choose one ram over the one in the pen next door, or on the next farm?
For a maternal breed, you are more concerned about its udder, its milkiness and its ability to produce twins. This, I presume Steve, is why you have chosen Lleyns in your breeding. And I don't believe anyone would fault you there.
Now I've always believed that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and we all have different experiences, which are worth sharing with others. I can also see why a lot of people agree with you because you have the ability to be very convincing.
But how can you spout off about EBVs (estimated breeding value) when you have cross bred ewes and use crossbred (SuffTex) rams? It is perfectly obvious that showing is entirely irrelevant to your system of production. I am afraid you do not count as a ram buyer in the accepted sense of the word.
Now I am not knocking your system. It clearly works for you. But that does not make you an expert on the way Buffy chooses to produce her sheep. So it would seem unfair to condemn anyone who wishes to show their animals when you don't really seem to understand what it's all about.
I notice in an earlier post you mentioned Steve that you had an interest in genetics. (Forgive me Buffy for veeering slightly from your question.) So you know that the genetics of an animal are what it passes on to its offspring. The breeder will feed up an animal so that its genetics and potential are obvious to the potential buyer, like polishing a car before you sell it. The fact that you don't like to see an animal that has been fed extra, in no way affects its genetic ability to produce good lambs nor does it mean that you cannot fatten these lambs entirely on grass.
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Well I keep saying I am going to lamb later due to lack of grass but I find my lambs are usually better when born February. My early lambs this year are huge. Next year however I am considering housing for last month to save the ground.
I always keep newborns in for a few days until strong and will bring back in during early weeks if necessary but that's because I can. I may just be lucky but I can't believe how many people are losing stock due to weather and poor feeding.
I don't think you can compare commercial and rare breeds. They have quite different requirements and I agree with Steve on this, for once! Sorry haven't managed to get over to see your setup, things a bit chaotic here.
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So for a terminal sire the animal should be a good size and shape, and I'm sorry Steve but a poorly finished animal that has not had sufficient food to show its potential is not going to impress anybody.
Yes, but this food should consist of the same food that I am going to feed its progeny - ie grass. This is why I buy off-farm.
If the animal is going to be your flock ram you want to see that it is capable of siring lambs that will fetch a good price in market. You don't want to just guess that its genetics are right - you want to see it for yourself. Else why would you choose one ram over the one in the pen next door, or on the next farm?
For a maternal breed, you are more concerned about its udder, its milkiness and its ability to produce twins. This, I presume Steve, is why you have chosen Lleyns in your breeding. And I don't believe anyone would fault you there.
Yes, I but maternal rams to breed replacements, using maternal ebvs as a tool. I buy terminal sire rams to produce fat lambs, using terminal EBVs as a tool.
But how can you spout off about EBVs (estimated breeding value) when you have cross bred ewes and use crossbred (SuffTex) rams? It is perfectly obvious that showing is entirely irrelevant to your system of production. I am afraid you do not count as a ram buyer in the accepted sense of the word.
I've lost you here - both maternal and terminal breeders use ebvs. I chose SufTexs because I like a bit of hybrid vigour, but I could have equally bought either a Suffolk or Texel off the same breeder. I also looked at Meatlinc and Charrolais before deciding. Signet uses EBVs to compare across breeds, which is why they are a useful index. See this promotional chart from the meatlinc breed website here: (http://www.meatlinc.co.uk/userfiles/Image/graph.jpg)
I don't know why I don't count as a ram buyer to you. I buy rams. Most keepers of maternal flocks buy rams and are usually who the ram breeders target. I know I don't have many ewes compared to most sheep farmers, maybe thats why - I have 300 commercial ewes, how many would I need to be a ram buyer in the 'true sense of the word'? 500? 1000?
Most of the terminal breed societies are coming on-side to EBVS because the way people are buying rams is changing - the show ring has let down so many producers with rams that melt or whos progeny are slow to grow because their genetic potential had been masked by the sires being fed on concentrates.
Here are a few links:
http://www.meatlinc.co.uk/buying-rams/ (http://www.meatlinc.co.uk/buying-rams/)
http://www.charollaissheep.com/sire_ref_scheme.htm (http://www.charollaissheep.com/sire_ref_scheme.htm)
http://www.texel.co.uk/thebreed/prt_index_updates.php (http://www.texel.co.uk/thebreed/prt_index_updates.php)
http://www.easyrams.co.uk/ (http://www.easyrams.co.uk/)
Now I am not knocking your system. It clearly works for you. But that does not make you an expert on the way Buffy chooses to produce her sheep. So it would seem unfair to condemn anyone who wishes to show their animals when you don't really seem to understand what it's all about.
I notice in an earlier post you mentioned Steve that you had an interest in genetics. (Forgive me Buffy for veeering slightly from your question.) So you know that the genetics of an animal are what it passes on to its offspring. The breeder will feed up an animal so that its genetics and potential are obvious to the potential buyer, like polishing a car before you sell it. The fact that you don't like to see an animal that has been fed extra, in no way affects its genetic ability to produce good lambs nor does it mean that you cannot fatten these lambs entirely on grass.
I didn't condemn anyone for wanting to show - I only stated that it was a fun hobby and perhaps if her ewes had had a hard time in 2012, 2013 would not be the best time to bring lambing forward. I was then told in no uncertain terms that unlike almost everyone elses sheep I know (and I live in an area not badly affected by the weather in 2012) because her sheep had plenty of grass and sheds concs etc etc and also that "showing was an integral part of sheep farming", which I disagree with, and I think I stated pretty concisley why that was.
Steve that you had an interest in genetics. (Forgive me Buffy for veeering slightly from your question.) So you know that the genetics of an animal are what it passes on to its offspring. The breeder will feed up an animal so that its genetics and potential are obvious to the potential buyer, like polishing a car before you sell it. The fact that you don't like to see an animal that has been fed extra, in no way affects its genetic ability to produce good lambs nor does it mean that you cannot fatten these lambs entirely on grass.
How on earth can you possibly say that - if the animal itself hasn't been fed on grass only then you have no idea how its genetics will perform when it (or its offspring) are only fed grass - what happens is in effect you are masking the effects of those genetics. A ram that grows well on concs may not grow well on grass and vice versa, and before I part with x hundred quid, I want to be damn sure that the animal fits my system. And, if your claim was the case then buyers wouldn't be looking to buy off farm as many are now choosing to do - they would simply continue to buy from the big breed auctions etc.
And that is where we come back to EBVs. Naturally, the flaw in ebvs is that you have no idea how the rams were fed to achieve the figures on the ebv sheet. This is why you have to visit the farm.
On a wider note - as the population of the world increases, we have more and more mouths to feed with less and less inputs available, so it makes sense to work towards eliminating concentrate feeding wherever possible. Or, in slightly more selfish terms - buying concentrates eats into your margin, and the prices are set to increase and to continue to do so. If farmers cannot make a suitable margin, then they will cease to be able to make a living.
Why do I care about all of this, and why am I bothering on a 'smallholder' forum?
Firstly - I consider a 300 ewe flock to be pretty small, so therefore I consider myself to be a smallholder of sorts, and I see no reason why I should not run my flock along commercial lines and, more importantly, why doing so should not make me money. I can't afford for it not to.
Secondly, there are a lot of small flocks producing terminal sires out there and given that me (and people like me, although perhaps with more sheep) are your customers, it makes sense to illustrate what your customers are actually looking for.
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I view EBV's with a good deal of scepticism - thought I'd try a ram with good all round scores for the first time this year and his lambs have been no better, or worse, than those of any other ram I've picked by eye off farm, except he's thrown 55% ram lambs in the Southdowns and 90% in the Badger Face Xs, instead of the usual 45% ish! If I select a ram lamb to grow on for breeding it's always a twin that's been healthy, vigorous and has excellent conformation. Since I only keep ewes that are also that way and lamb without assistance and are excellent, milky and long-lived mothers, I have to assume that these traits, generation on generation, will become increasingly fixed in the flock.
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I don't think you can compare commercial and rare breeds. They have quite different requirements and I agree with Steve on this, for once! Sorry haven't managed to get over to see your setup, things a bit chaotic here.
Thats okay! You are welcome anytime - it'll be a bit quiet after shearing the wooly ones so you can pop over then if you like.
Re Rare breeds: Interestingly, a friend of mine has been heavily involved in the Wilts Horn Breed Soc - and has been driving the move to performance record and the breed has come on in leaps and bounds in terms of mothering, milkiness etc to the point where there are now numerous large flocks of Wilts Horns run on a commercial basis, and this was a breed that was pretty rare until quite recently. He also noted the rift between those who show those who don't within the breed, noting that several multiple show-winners from 'wining bloodlines' consistently fall at the bottom of the performance charts...... ;D
I think something similar happened with Hampshire Downs, pulling them from relative decline to one of the most popular terminal breeds.
It just seems to me that whenever showing/judging animals on their appearance on one day of the year becomes central to a breed of anything, it seems to suffer because form becomes instantly more important than function.
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I view EBV's with a good deal of scepticism - thought I'd try a ram with good all round scores for the first time this year and his lambs have been no better, or worse, than those of any other ram I've picked by eye off farm, except he's thrown 55% ram lambs in the Southdowns and 90% in the Badger Face Xs, instead of the usual 45% ish! If I select a ram lamb to grow on for breeding it's always a twin that's been healthy, vigorous and has excellent conformation. Since I only keep ewes that are also that way and lamb without assistance and are excellent, milky and long-lived mothers, I have to assume that these traits, generation on generation, will become increasingly fixed in the flock.
Of course - they are not a magic bullet, they just give an insight on how an animal might perform and give you more to go on that judging by eye could. Things like muscle depth become more important if you are selling deadweight etc - The buying off-farm is very important in ram selection too. The 'other' important (some might say most important) use of EBVs is improving your own maternal flock. It does seem to be said wherever you read it though that those breeds who do performance record have seen rapid genetic gains - For the ultimate example of this, talk to a Kiwi involved in Romneys etc.
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So for a terminal sire the animal should be a good size and shape, and I'm sorry Steve but a poorly finished animal that has not had sufficient food to show its potential is not going to impress anybody.
Yes, but this food should consist of the same food that I am going to feed its progeny - ie grass. This is why I buy off-farm.___ End quote. . .
With all due respect, if you get fat on biscuits that does not stop you also getting fat on chips, steak, rice or anything else you happen to eat. Your body doesn't then become programmed to only fatten on biscuits! The idea of feeding up a show ram is to indicate the potential of how much weight and shape he will achieve without having to wait for the same end result off grass alone.
The fact the sire has been fattened mainly on concentrates in order to show off his potential is not carried over in his genes to his offspring. The resultant lambs will still fatten on grass or whatever combination of fibre and concentrates you choose. Do not mix breeding with feeding.
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I think this subject may rumble on for some time!
But as correctly said by others the phenotype, what the ram looks like will not always indicate his genetics and progeny. which is why so much work has gone into EBVs and genetic performance.
We have completely turned the Hampshires around from being a fat overstuffed waddling breed into a terminal sire of impact with fast finishing lambs with good food conversion.
Talking of food conversion. I feel this is the most important aspect if your lambs don't have the genetics behind them to convert the food they are given you are on an uphill battle right from the start.
Showing from my point of view is more to show other breeders what i can produce. yes they are fed more, a skeleton will win me no prizes but niether will a fatty, it is a balance.
My word of warning is remember that a show winner may just be a one off.
I know a ram that has won a lot this year already but if you went to visit the flock the rest of the sheep don't reflect this ram, they are very inconsistant. A commercial man is looking for consistancy not the occasional fast finishing lamb, that's why it's figures are important, they should reflect his abilities accross the whole flock. It is a science and a question of picking the right ram to match what type of ewes you have, with a bit of good luck thrown in as well :-J