The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Other => Topic started by: pigsatlesrues on October 26, 2007, 12:06:57 pm
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We have five dogs, two of which are labs. Our 3 year old Chocolate lab - Leroy - is incredibly overweight. I had him checked at the vet; bought the Royal Cannon complete food for obesity, but nothing is changing. He is castrated and has been since he was 6 months old.
It started when we took in an abondoned old black Lab Henry. He was 16 when we rehomed him and the ripe old age of 19 has just recently passed away. Leroy loved Henry but became an old man himself. We have since rehomed a young yellow Lab cross of a year old now - Deefor. We think there is some Great Dane in there somewhere but he is so Lab like. He has had the desired effect and has become best buddies with Leroy and they play all day long. The weight isn't changing though. I have run out of the special food at the moment, just too expensive at the moment with other things to pay for, so giving him normal food again but just wondering how much I can cut him down to quantity wise.
I give the dogs biscuit with either tinned dog meat or I cook up heart and lungs for them.
leroy is a thief and lives for food and would eat everyones food if he could. He will empty bins and raid dustbins so everything needs to be lifted if we go out or tied down normally. He will steal loaves of bread as I am unloading the car after shopping if I am not paying attention. It is a constant battle to keep him from any food source.
I am really worried about him so any advice would be good at this stage. I am also worried about castrating Deefor in case he puts on weight too. He is a good boy I have to say and loves his own food and will minesweep odd bit left on the floor but doesn't steal food from the others. He is very hormonal now though and finds Leroy very appealing to put it politely and displays his you know what to me all the time, so it is time to take the trip to the vet I think.
The other dogs are all ideal weight and proportionally to their breed they all get the same ratio of food. We have a Jack Russell bitch, spayed, Petite Basset Griffon Vendeen dog, castrated, and a little mongral from the farm nearby who moved in to be with his pals. He too needs to be castrated since he is out searching for bitches all the time at the moment.
Thanks
Kate
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Kate one idea might be to make him think he is full up. You probably already do give him dog chews, etc. Are there any that are long lasting (I know mine either bury them or they are eaten with minutes) I thought perhaps a long lasting dog chew might just keep him interested.
At the end of the day if he is happy does it matter too much if he is over weight. If he can run around without puffing too much, - quality of life.
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Sorry, can't agree with it being OK for him to be overweight. His quality of life will be affected in the short and the long term, so it is important to get the weight off him. He's a young dog and the problem isn't going to get better. We rehomed an old cat (14 years old) who was overweight - our vet's advice was not to diet her because of the age / quality of life argument - it would have taken years of food control to get her weight down and she could have been dead by then. But had she been three, he would certainly have been on our case to do something about it.
One of our collies tends to put weight on - it kind of creeps on - so we weight her regularly and reduce her food if her weight is rising. She's ruptured the cruciate ligament in her leg and is waiting for surgery, so she's on no exercise and her food has been reduced accordingly. We took about 2kg off her last summer form 19kg to 17kg and she was a different dog - more energy, more active. So I know how hard it is, especially when the other dogs are tucking in!
I'd speak to your vet again for advice - the advice we've had is green vegetables, bran and pasta to fill them up.
Good luck, Kate and soon-to-be skinny Leroy!
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Thanks for feedback both of you!
I never give snacks anymore - he would eat it in a flash and has. They all get fed once a day in the morning and that is it. The others go without because it wouldn't be fair to give to the others a treat and not to him. I bought one of those big rubber things that you smear something good in middle because I was told that it would keep him interested and take his mind off scavaging but he couldn't be bothered with that.
He breaks my heart quite frankly. When I was feeding him the royal cannon food, he broke into the cupboard when I was out and ate through nearly 3kilos of cat buscuit. He is a nightmare. The only treat he gets with the vets ok is beef knuckle bone, they all get one, but that is all I dare give him.
Thinking out loud I suppose a consideration could be thyroid and we could have a blood test done, but my gut feeling is that he is just a greedy dog.
I will plod on, make another appointment with the vet and hopefully find a solution. Clamping his jaw could be an option!!
The veg and pasta could be an option which I can discuss with the vet.
I have to find the answer soon - he is so lovely and I love him to death, but the way he is going he is going to eat himself to death!!
Thanks again
Kate
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I knowo this sounds cruel - but would a lightweight muzzle help? At least it would stop the incursions into cat biscuits. I've used a grazing muzzle for my horse in the past - maybe you could get something for Leroy that wouldn't stop him drinking and panting but would stop him filling his face.
I hope you do find a solution - I know how frustrating it can be. Especially when they're looking at you with the big Labrador eyes...
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That is not a bad idea Rosemary - I hadn't thought of that.
We bought a nylon one with velcro (spelt wrong I think!), for Harvey, the Petite Basset, because although a gentle dog he hates being groomed and gets really upset. Having said that he ripped it the first time we used it on him, but there must be something else around suitable for Leroy. At least it would give me peace of mind when I wasn't around to supervise him.
I know I have already given examples of his greedyness, but honestly it amazes me just how persistant he is and so inteligent the way he reasons out solutions to get at food. He had my handbag down from the peg because it smelt of peppermints, he has opened the oven door, he gets into the cupboard, he has actually pulled the furnishings from the hob, dragged the whole lot down crashing to the floor because there was a single cat buscuit left on the top after I had fed the cats.
Anyway, I will have a look around and see what I can find for him.
Thank you
Kate
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You might be able to get a light mesh one like the ones used by greyhounds. Even if it doesn't work, it will be highly amusing watching him work out how to either get it off or circumvent it - and it will keep his mind off food for a bit!
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I am off to UK on Wednesday so can get around the specialist pet stores and hopefully get a good selection to choose from.
Watch this space!!
Kate
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Kate of absolutely no use, but my sister's dog was an absolute horror for stealing. She came to stay with us for a few weeks. After we had learned to remove the wastebin from the room, shut and lock the larder, keep anything edible in the eye level cupboards, she taught my ever so thick springer to open the fridge door, we saw it happen, he stood back whilst she dashed in and ate the contents in seconds. Eventually we had to resort to a strap all around the fridge door. After she returned home the thick springer used to open the fridge for the other dog to help herself. Eventually OH fooled him by the simple trick of changing the hinges on the door to the opposite side. He never worked that one out.
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Neither is this but Dan's parents used to have two Border Collies called Tim and Sam. Tim was a terrible rake for food - I saw him eat a coffee filter once, complete with coffee grounds. But him worst meal was a big bowl of lard. Actually it wasn't his worst meal, but I can't tell you what that was because it is too awful. But the lard made him awfully sick.
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typing about what stupid dog eat, My dog (who is now with my parent) He is a rescued dog , apparently when they get really bad dog they feed them on marg, well chumly has a taste for it and will eat a half tub (the big ones)of it if he can with no sickness at all, I even tried to get him to stop eating it by filling it with every spice ever herb every taste that was in the cupboard, Which included marmite, cloves, five spices, curry powder (loads of it) pepper, Picking spices everything and anything i could imagine that i found in the cupboard but he still ate it and was okay no sickness, no diarrhoea or anything , as i watching him like a hawk, at the point we just had to remember to put the marg up out it way lol
I didn't really do him any harm as that was about 9 years ago lol and he is still going (a bit more slowly now as he is an old man).
Linz
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Kate, how's Leroy's diet going?
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Total nightmare I am afraid! I bought the special food, weigh it out religiously - hide food - watch him like a hawk. He still steals when the opportunity is in front of him. Now knows how to dimolish the dustbins, he has gone behind me when I am emptying the car of the shopping and theived newly bought groceries. Christmas has been a mare as well with visitors for the whole holiday and open house more or less for the best part of a week. He opened the larder and ate three boxes of mince pies that my friend brought with her. I made sure everyone kept their leftovers and didn't feed any of the dogs and actually they were very good about it. The dogs behaved themselves, but I am ashamed to say that the weight is still there. The others are losing weight, not that they need to, but he is still a whale! I am going back to the vet, will still keep persevering, and somehow I have to do better with him.
Kate
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Poor Leroy and poor you. It must be a nightmare, right enough. Do you think he might have a medical problem like thyroid or something? Did you try a muzzle? I bought a grazing muzzle for my Highland pony, who also tends to being porky - lasted about a day before he'd removed it and lost it in the field!
At least the others will be lovely and trim!
Rosemary
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Yes did try the muzzle - nylon velcro one so not to be harsh - used once when we went out - shredded when we returned. Actually not by Leroy but by Deefor. All of our 5 dogs play because they are all young -ages from 16 months (Deefor, Lab cross) to Harvey the Petite Basset coming into 4 years old in April. You have to be here to see it for yourself - the chairs and settee move accross the room as they rough and tumble and they do love to hang on by their collars, hence they never keep an identiy disc on for more than a day before it is gone forever! I buy four collars a year because they get worn out so quickly. The muzzell had to be a real treat for all of them - something new to attach themselves to and once removed no doubt passed around until Deefor got it all to himself! They are all so lovely but so boystrous - even Daisy our little Jack joins in even though she is so small in comparison to the boys.
So tried and rejected this time I am afraid. There is always the option of welding his jaw together I suppose! No seriously, yes I am going to refer to the vet again and if appropropriate get some bloods taken.
Thanks for asking anyway.
Kate
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This is zazi she came to me at 46 kgs having spent 8 months in a refuge!! free feeding!
http://i113.photobucket.com/albums/n218/kanisha001/for%20me/Photo029.jpg
she left to go to her new owner six months later a svelt 34 kgs. how did I do it?
I used flatazor light but you can use any brand and don't waste your money on special vet diets most brands of dog food will do a light or senior range that is fine for this.
I don't know what weight your dog is now but I fed for the weight I wanted her to be. depends howx much he needs to lose . it was hard to start with because she was hungry but you can add haricot vert tinned and chopped or blanched if you have fresh; lots of fibre to fill them up. I only fed once a day if they bug you for something in the morning give them fresh veg carrots or anything thats lo-cal high fibre. and for treats the same no snacks and every now and again after a good weight loss give them a break allow them to rest you will notice their body shape changes and gets a bit saggy this will come back but takes time don't worry; it is possible there is an underlying condition such as an underactive thyroid but with a labrador this isn't that likely and if he eats reasonably well this is likely to be the cause of his problem.
if you prefer to start with a slightly less reduced ration then weigh weekly if they are losing fine if not cut it down a bit and exercise is important we used the beach because Zazi really did have joint problems ( she couldn't even run) and this cushioned her joints.
HTH
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Kanisha thank you so much for your input. New Year new start and the photos have inspired me! Leroy here I come - again!
Kate
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it is easy to be strict but also just as easy to let things slide video of zazi yes it really is the same dog as that large lump in the other photo a few weeks before she left for the UK. the difference in her quality of life is extreme. not to mention her longevity. I got a lovely photo of her at home this christmas; Leroy will thank you for it in the end ( honestly!)
<embed width="448" height="361" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" src="http://i113.photobucket.com/player.swf?file=http://vid113.photobucket.com/albums/n218/kanisha001/zazi/Photo361.flv"></embed>
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hi was at the vets earlier and noticed royal cannin do an obese food and and overweight food, hills science plan also do an overweight food. we feed all out breeding and spayed cats on royal canin and it i good stff, quite expensive but definatley worth the money so the overweight or obese food may be worth a try! i couldnt find it on their website but ringing them and they will be able to help! http://www.royalcanin.co.uk/
:)
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Thanks Stephen - yes have used that one and it is good - he enjoyed it especially eating three times a day with weighed out quanities. He has lost a little weight but not nearly as much as he should have. My responsibility I know and as I posted before, it is I that is going to have to do better for his sake.
Kate
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well i wouldnt become disheartened! keep doing what your doing he has lost a 'little weight' as you said so you must be doing something right! my partner and i breed pedigree cats and sometimes a kitten just dosent put weight on, we have one at the moment, she eats all the time both dry food and fresh chicken etc but only puts on tiny ammounts of weight! on the other end we had a cat (kinky boots) who would reguraly need seperating from the food hoppers as she would just eat and eat and eat, she very sadly passed away on the operating table yesterday during an emergency c-section and we now have the task of hand raising the three 2 day old kittens she managed to have naturally (good in a way because it keeps your mind busy and not morning the loss of her) they want food all the time, just like a human baby. your dogs body like many humans may just find it difficult to shift the weight, my mum has been on a diet for as long as i can rember, she has kept at it for years (im 23!) i rember her being and have photos of her as a sizable lady, she walk's everywhere, eats sensibly.... no chocolate etc apart from the odd small treat, snacks on fruit and nuts etc, drinks alot of water, swims at least twice a week for an hour or so, walks with my dad on the weekends for miles and has a very busy social life, recently retired from a school she has spent most of my life running around after either me and my sister, the kids at her school and now my elderley nan. after all of that and over such a long time she has shed quite alot of weight but it did take years of constant hard work. like i mentioned at the top of this post, he has lost some weight so carry on with what your doing, just thought!!... it might be worth trying more intensive excercise such as swimming, he would burn more fat over the same ammount of time, and then only feed him the same amount! or / and try cooking him fresh foods that are naturaly low in fat but high in energy! a breeder friend of ours goes to quite alot of courses / seminars (she is an alternative therapist) and i rember her talking about one on naturaly feeding dog she attended! ill rack her brains and see if she has any suggestions for you! :)
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Kate, we had same problems with a dog we had!! He was brought up with a Bull Mastiff who ate any and everything!! So no wonder the dog was always hungry! BUT we stuck to the muzzle idea and got at first a nylon one from Hautbois but he managed to get this off!! SO we eventually got him a PROPER muzzle in leather. This has worked thus far!! BUT then again he didn't have an ally!! MAY seem cruel? BUT you are being cruel to be KIND!!
The other thing we did was to as has been said feed him doggy pasta from Super 'U'! certainly filled him up!! In fact I once tried him with his usual food AFTER a bowl of pasta etc. And he ate a couple of mouthfuls, not really happily!! And left the rest, hoping I think it would be there later?? IT WASN'T!! :lol:
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Thanks Chris, think we will invest in the leather muzzle for when we are out.
The vet says there is nothing medically wrong with him, so here we go!
Kate
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Kate, have you seen how many views this thread has had? I think it must be a widespread (if you'll pardon the pun) problem.
Come on, folks, if we can will Mrs DeVere back home we can will a few kilos off Leroy!
Rosemary
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Bless you Rosemary - if it is going to come down to the power of thought, then throw in a few more of them for me - I could do to lose a couple of stone as well!! Too much wine and good living since I moved accross the pond. The trouble is, I do so much pysical work these days I cannot understand why I am not like a racing whipet!
Kate
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Hi, Kate
Just wondered how Leroy is?
Rosemary
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It is a slow process but we are seeing some progress. The pasta is doing the job of filling him up and it goes down as quickly as any other food. His mindset is still if he sees it he wants to eat it and I know he would force himself to eat something else even if he was full up.
If I am in the room he will at least sit and look at a dish of uneaten food since the others eat a lot slower than he does so he just waits. If I popped out for second he would steal if unsupervised, so I have to be in the room at all times at feed times.
So going in the right direction and getting there. Will keep you posted though.
Kate :pig:
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Kate, how's Leroy?
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Lots of vegetables, lots of exercise. If he steals leave a tasty sandwich on the worktop for him - the hottest mustard you can find in a bread and a small amount of butter sandwich. Just treat him as you would yourself if you had put on weight. Very little dog food, mostly veg. And don't bother with the specialist foods - they are a con, just overpriced and no dashed good at all.
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Hello Kate, I can relate to Labradors, I love my food too...anyway, I find my young lab piles on the weight when I give her a bit more than she suppose to have, she is young and gets loads of excercise but she needs very little food to keep her healthy. I have had three labs before and as you know, they are very food focused, I am lucky that my dogs have a room where there is nothing else foodwise to get at...that is what I need, my daughter had a very overwieght lab and she changed her firstly into a rake of a dog, a bit like a greyhound, but now she is beautiful, all due to keeping her from food and on a very limited diet but loads of excercise...yes, I know, that is exactly what I need, you have at least given me inspiration for myself, Sandy (was a Lab in my past life)
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I have just noticed the November postings sorry all.
He is less than he was, but still has a way to go. I am going to get a velcro muzzle for him over the Christmas period to keep temptation out of reach. It is a hard slog, because he still steals. As soon as my back is turned he has found something. This week he got hold of the entrails of the cockerals I had processed. I couldn't believe it! I had them in a dustbin at the table I was working at outside. I dashed in for the phone and stupidly left the door open. I was only a few minutes, but there were feathers everywhere and the remnants of the yukky stuff. He did't get dinner that evening but he feasted on the leftovers of 6 large birds, feet and all. He is a nightmare.
Anyway a working progress. It frustrates me so much, because Deefor the yellow lab never steals, nor do the others really. Harvey the PBGV is a hunter and will eat his kill, but he then refuses his dinner, as does the Daisy the Jack, and Acro the French farm dog, so there is no problem with them at all.
All I can say is doing my best, and he is reducing slowly.
Kate :pig:
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You have to have a sneaking admiration for his persistance and determination, though!
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Have you tried the hot mustard sandwich yet? I know of a number of dogs it has worked on, including a very greedy Cocker we owned some years ago.
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I will do that - he is a blighter and it certainly wont hurt him to teach him a bit of a lesson!!
As a side issue, I cut his toe nails today; his seem to grow so much faster than the other dogs. What a baby!! He blubered all around the house. He might be a giant, but he is a wuss of the worst kind!!
Kate :P
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Aww, poor baby. I have a couple like that. And when they see the dental scrape coming out of the bag all four of them are suddenly invisible ;)
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I have never used a dental scrape - is it difficult to use?
From puppies I have always given my lot marrow bones. Harvey is five now and the oldest, and he like the others has pearly whites and no discolouration at all.
I know you can get doggy tooth paste and alsorts, but have never thought to go that route.
Is it something I should think about as they get older, or are they too old to start?
Kate :-\
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You only need it if there is a real build up of tartar on the canines and molars/premolars. It's plaque and although big knuckle bones will remove most of it there is sometimes the start of a black line at the gum - that is the start of decay and should be removed. Either by yourself if you feel confident or by your vet. You can buy these in some pet stores - possibly also on line, haven't looked.(will do and post a link) But I got an old one from my own dentist if I find them. Dogs don't like it very much but mine are used to it, but I think a vet would put them under first - you could ask them. Same with cutting nails - some vets put them under for that and that's an easy job, again if they are brought up with it.
Hope that helps
Annie
edited to provide link to dental tools - not expensive £3 or so http://www.indigo.com/tools/gphtools/dental-tools.html
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Thanks Annie!
Kate :)
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You only need it if there is a real build up of tartar on the canines and molars/premolars. It's plaque and although big knuckle bones will remove most of it there is sometimes the start of a black line at the gum - that is the start of decay and should be removed. Either by yourself if you feel confident or by your vet. You can buy these in some pet stores - possibly also on line, haven't looked.(will do and post a link) But I got an old one from my own dentist if I find them. Dogs don't like it very much but mine are used to it, but I think a vet would put them under first - you could ask them. Same with cutting nails - some vets put them under for that and that's an easy job, again if they are brought up with it.
Hope that helps
Annie
edited to provide link to dental tools - not expensive £3 or so http://www.indigo.com/tools/gphtools/dental-tools.html
Thanks for the link but we sold that domain 3 years ago. We still carry them at: https://www.indigoinstruments.com/tools/dental_tools/ (https://www.indigoinstruments.com/tools/dental_tools/).
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edited to provide link to dental tools - not expensive £3 or so http://www.indigo.com/tools/gphtools/dental-tools.html
Thanks for the link but we sold that domain 3 years ago. We still carry them at: https://www.indigoinstruments.com/tools/dental_tools/ (https://www.indigoinstruments.com/tools/dental_tools/).
[/quote]This thread ended three years ago :roflanim: :roflanim: