The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: melholly on May 06, 2013, 10:07:57 pm
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Hi there,
Just interested in thoughts/experiences/opinions on this matter.
Bought a Choc Lab from a family situation (rural) in Feb. He was a year old. Within a few days we quickly found out that at every correction in training - even just a low voice, he would flinch. He had issues coming to the whistle - highly suspicious of me even with treats and if calling post corrective command (ie leave!! Where rabbit poo is concerned) no chance of coming! We have a sappy 5 year old black lab male who quickly established alpha (ie all toys and pick of beds are mine) and no overly agressive behaviour between them.
We thought we would be able to get him on a 'nice' bed and out of puppy cage quite quickly but then found 'accidents' and that's where my problem starts... These accidents have ranged from pooing overnight in cage to weeing outright bold as anything in lounge. We bit the bullet, removed cage, but accidents kept happening so we put him back. He clearly knows the correct commands for this and did go outside in field at request. The next idea i had was taking his toiket training back to puppy school - ie taking out through night and then gradually extending the hours. it had an improvement on overnight accidents but didnt stop random weeing in the afternoons - always big wees too! So I put it down to change of home, diet and immaturity and got him neutered last month...
To date, he is still very timid and behaves like everything he does he's about to be shouted out, We've invested so much time, love, attention etc and just want him out of cage, enjoying his new life with us. He's a smashing little lab. BUT the accidents won't stop. This morning he was out checking lambs with me at 5am - did mega wee etc, Came to let him out of boot room (drying off area) to find another massive wee just an hour later. WHY? We remove water at 8pm, stick to a routine, feed mostly in mornings etc.
I'm at a loss to see what I'm doing wrong but clearly I'm struggling with something. Last week he spent 3 days pooing each time we went on field to check sheep - so a poo every 3 hours with a wee too. All 'normal' too if u catch my drift...!
Help?
Mx
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Kidney problems maybe - were his parents health checked per the Kennel Club list? Have you asked your vet for help? Sounds more like a physical than a mental problem to me if his wees are that big and close together with restricted water consumption, although he certainly has emotional issues too.
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Sounds like you bought a dog with *issues* but at such a young age I don't think they're insurmountable. Obviously you love him to bits and that's a good part of the battle. Is it possible to have a dog flap put into the boot room? So that he can go out when he needs to wee? Could you change treats from being food based, to toy based ie good old tennis ball? Play with him for as long as you can, work permitting, then introduce a few commands, ie *heel/sit/stay* etc. Get him retrieving as well.
3months is not a long time, and now the better weather is here, you can hopefully spend longer periods outside with him and he'll wee outside more, and will notice that you're not getting stressed about his indoor accidents. Good luck xxx
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We rehomed a VERY nervous German Shepherd who was 9 months old (we had the same wee/poo issues and flinching at even the slightest hint of sterness in our voices) it took around 6 months for him to finally settle and start to come round. But he ended up the best dog we've ever owned, so hang in there :thumbsup:
It does sound like there might be an issue physically, so a quick vet check would be a good idea.
Good luck with him,
Karen x
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I would defintely get him checked by a vet as a starting point - once all physical possibilities are dealt with or ruled out then you can work on some corrective training. Good luck to you. :thumbsup:
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Firstly, he could haven a medical problem re seeing......worth checking that out but he also sounds very anxious , he feels vulnerable so prefers to go toilet where he feels less vulnerable, so inside hie home........pups naturally do not soil their homes but he must have felt the need to and would be very upset by soiling his bed.
he needs his confidence building up, time consuming but worth it, you are right to take him back to baby stage, he should improve in his own time. I would not remove the crate but leave it open with newspaper around at night time, if he is in your boot room, it's not too bad, ours sleep in a boot room with open cages and although its rare, we sometimes find a poo in the morning, our youngest labs are 3,
our 3 year old Yellow Lab is also nervy, it's her traits, her mum is a bit and so is her dad, she is such a good dog she never gets shouted at or told off, yet she hates strangers coming up to stroke her etc, she likes to sniff them out in her own time, I suspect your boy is similar, do not force him , ignore him and he will become more confident, make sure he meets lots if people.
training in anything will be great, Li would bet he will be a highly intelligent boy,.....would love to meet him......Hope I have made sense as I a m writing this without my glasses......XX
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:wave: Glasses on, just been thinking and I would bet he is just over anxiouse. A bit like if we were in a house with big monsters, best to ignore him but keep up the commands, keep him on a lead but if he can run free somewhere let him for short periods then put him back on the lead to take him to his bed, he will feel more protected, also you can take him on the lead for the toilet for now, hes still very young and the dominant male dog intimidates him but as long as thier is no physical aggression its OK and how it should be, he should come round in time, keep things quiet and low and not too much stress going on around him but also make sure that he meets lots of new people....... :thumbsup:
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I would def. get a vet check up.
How much do you know about his former life? How much was he indoors or was he mainly a kennel dog? Was he being trained as a working gundog? This could mean that he hasn't had much in the way of house training.
Is he a "working" line lab? You have a lab . so may already know that some working line labs. can be very sensitive to correction. My father used to train gundogs and one of the biggest problems he would have is when people had "had a go" at training their dogs but been too harsh or corrected in a way that confused the dog. They can quickly become worried, anxious, nervy and then unresponsive. Could be that his former owners made a few mistakes in this way. Some people push working dogs too soon and they dry up. This can be corrected. Be kind and consistent and yes I too would go "back to little puppy" basics with everything ..... his house and general training. Loads of verbal and physical praise, all in a gentle reassuring way. A lot of working labs are very eager to please and as he gains confidence and trusts you more, you may find that he is a dog that doesn't even need a stern voice used. My father wouldn't touch a dog regarding training until 7 months of age so your lad, who you obviously love, has plenty of time to become a cracking dog. He is still a baby.
:fc: Good luck with him.
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In the Hills, our Yellow Lab is the most nervy and an excellant gun dog, her dad demonstrates gun dog skills and is just the same, we never ever shout at any of our 3 dogs but our Chocolate Lab, also a gun dog but with more show dog in her bread, is rock solid, nerves of steel etc, she brought me back a huge black bag of Deer bits yesterday!!! :thumbsup:
He could have also been effected by his surgery....thats just his weeing, but he will know its wrong so it will make him more anxiouse, I agree with In the Hills, time and patience and he will be wondeful!!
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Bless her, Happygolucky. Just generalizing really and many are confident and some do need a firm hand but I suppose that it is like any breed that is bred for a specific purpose. Some have been bred for generations with work as their main purpose. You breed for a biddable, easily trained dog with traits desirable for his purpose but with that can come a little too much sensitivity and a dog that "worries". You need to adjust your handling to the individual dog but it's not always easy ..... a fine line when it comes to correction.
Can only speak about working line labs.... no experience with pet/show types.
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I ment to add, the stud dog, thats the father to our Yellow Lab, shows skills at shows, and his owner is a renounded gun dog trainer, he loves our Yellow Lab and says it shows his dogs traits of being nervy but very very keen to please.....the nicest thing was when my grandchildren were over, the Yellow dog barked at them but they knew just what to do, she sniffed them and by the end of the day they were all curled up together on the floor!!! It can be a worry though. My chocolate Lab never fails to amuse me, she watches my every move and nearly always finds something while out dog walking, I just hope the best of the forest has eaten all that deer by now.......last week it was a washing up sponge!!!
Would love to see a photo of your chocolate Lab before I go all slushy about working Labs!!!!
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Personally, I would use clicker training. It sounds like he could do with lots of positive reinforcement (praise for when he does something you want, no matter how small) and less or no correction when he makes mistakes.
You would need to get him tuned into the clicker first of all (click, treat, click, treat etc. until he understands that if he hears a click, something nice will follow). I assume that being a lab he is food oriented but you need to use "high value" treats - something he really loves and very small pieces so that he can eat it quickly and move on (you also don't want him putting on weight so you may want to cut down on his food while you're training).
To get him toilet trained I would take him outside, don't say anything just watch, as soon as he starts to go, click immediately and treat when appropriate ie: when he's finished. He's heard the click so he knows the treat will come. Timing is important you need to click the instant he starts doing what you want. And always lots of praise.
If he does something you don't like, don't correct him (eating rabbit poo), get him to do something else, chase a ball for instance.
You can clicker train anything using the same principles, including the whistle.
I always use clicker training with my dogs and have seen it turn problem dogs around in a very short space of time but you do need to be consistent.
It can take a very long time for a dog to adjust to a new home. One of our rescue GSD's took a whole year before he finally felt relaxed enough to get up on the sofa with the other dogs.
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DOgs usualy very quickly get the knack of clicker training, I just forget to have mine with me all the time since the catch fell off!!
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In order to 'charge' the clicker, you scatter a few tiny prices of treat on the floor and as he rushes to eat them, click like crazy. He will then get teh idea in his head that a click means a treat. It's pretty easy after that.
But before you do all that get him checked out to make sure he doesn't have an underlying medical condition that means he hasn't got control of his functions.
I asked before if his parents had had all theri health checks done. That might be a good starting point - ask his breeder what was done or check their names on the KC Mate select website.
http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx (http://www.the-kennel-club.org.uk/services/public/mateselect/test/Default.aspx)
I doubt if nervousness is your problem. Very few labs are born nervous. Some can be made wary if their early life is fraught or training is too severe. They may have been yelled at as a baby puppies when messing in the nest. Some people don't realise what they are doing.
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Doganjo, I do not agree, like some people are nervy so are some dogs, highly strug high energy dogs are born that way. Rohan is highly strung and no had anything happened to her, she had and still has a nice calm life......I can compare her to other people who also have highly strung dogs and quiet houses and then the reverse!!!
I do agree on the clicker training though....I am in contact with most of the pups we had in the same litter, some are like Rohan some are more laid back, our black lab is also nervy, she hates any one to shout but then again, we never have to shout at her!!
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Well here's my two pennysworth ;D
He has lived a different life with different rules for a year so it is going to take months to bring him anywhere near your other dog's soundness.
I'd be inclined to start from scratch as you would a new puppy ( as has been said ) for everything, not just toilet training. Basic commands constantly such as sit, down etc just like a puppy. And praise, praise, praise to bring out some confidence.
It's hard but try to ignore toileting or unwanted behaviour and keep those SIT, DOWN etc so lots of your interaction is praise and reward. You are keeping it simple at first so he has little pressure.
Keep his cage for as long as possible. It will be his safety net and help him relax as time goes on.
Also get a DAP plugin to help relax him at home. This may also help with the toilet problem. To me it doesnt sound medical ( but there is always a small chance ). He just sounds confused in his exchange from previous life to his new one.
Just keep at it. Time will erase his past and he will become the perfect companion. You are doing fine,continue with the routine. He needs it at this stage. Patience will pay off, I promise :sunshine:
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Doganjo, I do not agree, like some people are nervy so are some dogs, highly strug high energy dogs are born that way. Rohan is highly strung and no had anything happened to her, she had and still has a nice calm life......I can compare her to other people who also have highly strung dogs and quiet houses and then the reverse!!!
I do agree on the clicker training though....I am in contact with most of the pups we had in the same litter, some are like Rohan some are more laid back, our black lab is also nervy, she hates any one to shout but then again, we never have to shout at her!!
Read what I said - "Very few labs are born nervous." It is a working breed. Labs are not high energy compared to what I have, believe me!
Working labs are expected to sit at their masters side for fairly long periods of time awaiting commands to retrieve - on a driven shoot a lab is a peg dog and may have to sit for an hour or more, perhaps longer till the birds are brought in by the beaters. Smaller shoots may differ obviously but a nervous dog of any breed wouldn't and shouldn't be on a shoot. They would be a hazard.
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Mammyshaz (http://www.accidentalsmallholder.net/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=24474), thats my thoughts too, the pen/cage etc is his cave and his place of security bless him, he will come round and to me it sounds like you are doing it all properly, it will just take some time.....would love to see a photo!!! and an update!!
Doganjo, dispite Rohan being nervy, she will sit with me for hours when out training or on a shoot, in fact, when out with her she barely goes for a wee unless I tell her to go! As for Rhum, she only leaves my side to hunt for something...usualy parts of Deer....both so different but both good gun dogs, ROhan has no fear when out neither does her mum......just in her genetics
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Thank you everyone for taking such time to reply. I've always kept labs - mix of pup/rehouse and working/show line but Chesters behaviour is just odd. He definitely doesn't like being stroked/patted around the rib cage area and often stands 'hunched up' When neutered I did raise this with the vet but she didn't seem overly concerned. However, I will think ill get him checked over. His parentage is all over the shop with show/working lines and I do know he was the runt...
However, I see great potential in him. He's built a relationship with Horsley, our older lab already and they often snuggle up together. He's fabulous with our 5 year old and isn't a mad lab at all. He doesn't drool for one! He heels beautifully, retrieves, sits, stays (all with puppy mischievous behaviour at times mind!) but I felt was a good all round family dog. It's just this untrustworthy soiling behaviour. I know the 50% fail rate I have with the come here command will take time and trust and loyalty. He's undergone huge change, diet change and even a name change from Cabury to Chester!
Ill try the cage door open for a bit, the doggy flap is a no go - PVC door and Horsley would be gone for days rabbiting on that basis!! Clicker sounds interesting. He does come to me or a reward and sometimes it's a nibble, other times a ball, or an ear scratch. I try to show that on lead has expectation but when off lead with a command of ' off u go fella' he can play.
Yes I'll definitely get the ok from the vets and then try some recommended approaches. Maybe 3 months was too ambitious to expect the 'perfect' dog. We housed Horsley at 9months though, changed his name etc and got everything first time of asking (other than going missing on rabbit expeditions at midnight leaving me bleating out threats of "fine, ignore me. Stay out all night then." Lol)
Mx
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Why change his name, that in itself must be confusing. I had our German Shepherds spayed. One was fine the other Tanya had trouble with her water works and would often wet herself if I did not hear her ask out. It has been my experience since having Rascal who has been attacked by labs that the breed has changed in some cases. More nervous, diet problems for a start. Our vet has treated a few dogs that have been attacked by labs something that never used to happen as they were know as such friendly dogs. Down to bad breeding again no doubt.
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Melholly - you obviously have experience with dogs and sure you will get there in the end, as he seems to be basically a good lad. Was he kept in his cage a lot where he was before? ...... not just at night but in the day? Could he feel that the cage is the "house" if you like and so once let out, he is free to empty himself? Just a thought. :-\
Doganjo - I think it may depend on your definition of"nervy". Maybe "over-sensitive" is a better description of SOME working labs. Top lines are bred very specifically for a certain job and it is believed that such breeding for a biddable nature has led to some individuals being if you like almost too biddable ..... "sensitive", "nervy", ..... too anxious to please. You are right they are not as "high energy" as some breeds but it doesn't necessarily follow that they are not sensitive souls. My Flattie, true to type for his breed, is more high energy than a working lab but equally not as sensitive. If you watched the working gundog display at Crufts, it was said that you could train/handle 3 working labs, compared to 2 Goldies, compared to 1 Flattie. Labs., in general, are more "push button". They are very biddable and hence easier to train. They are easier to train because they are more sensitive.
My father has 2 working labs. at the moment. Top lines and super workers. Hard on game. If you ask him about their temperaments as pets/house dogs, he will tell you they are not the best. How you describe them would depend on your interpretation of their behaviour - "nervy" maybe. He has had others with very sound temperaments, all treated the same way. My neighbour has a working lab. A beautiful lad, with a super temperament but again a "sensitive" dog.
Just my opinion. However, if one knows top handlers of working labs, then you will find it discussed quite openly and even assumptions made as to which lines help to pass on these "sensitivities".
I will agree to disagree, though. ;D
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in the hills, my sensitive bitch is so keen to please, as is her mother, her father is the exact same, she loves a fuss but only when she feels safe, otherwise she is very cautious, in the field she is very keen and dives into heavy cover and never scared if anything..only humans and other dogs
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Doganjo - I think it may depend on your definition of"nervy". Maybe "over-sensitive" is a better description of SOME working labs. Top lines are bred very specifically for a certain job and it is believed that such breeding for a biddable nature has led to some individuals being if you like almost too biddable ..... "sensitive", "nervy", ..... too anxious to please. You are right they are not as "high energy" as some breeds but it doesn't necessarily follow that they are not sensitive souls. My Flattie, true to type for his breed, is more high energy than a working lab but equally not as sensitive. If you watched the working gundog display at Crufts, it was said that you could train/handle 3 working labs, compared to 2 Goldies, compared to 1 Flattie. Labs., in general, are more "push button". They are very biddable and hence easier to train. They are easier to train because they are more sensitive.
My father has 2 working labs. at the moment. Top lines and super workers. Hard on game. If you ask him about their temperaments as pets/house dogs, he will tell you they are not the best. How you describe them would depend on your interpretation of their behaviour - "nervy" maybe. He has had others with very sound temperaments, all treated the same way. My neighbour has a working lab. A beautiful lad, with a super temperament but again a "sensitive" dog.
Just my opinion. However, if one knows top handlers of working labs, then you will find it discussed quite openly and even assumptions made as to which lines help to pass on these "sensitivities".
I will agree to disagree, though. ;D
You could be right about interpretation, ITH. My own opinion is that most puppies in a litter, whether show or work bred are not going into that particular environment except in the top echelons (Highest ranking Field Trial Winners or Show Champions), so they should never be nervy, and nervy dogs should never be bred from.
Sensitivity is a different thing altogether. I like a sensitive bitch for HPR work, but prefer a bold dog. Allez is both thankfully :eyelashes:
Working Labs have to sit still in the field for fairly long periods while a drive is coming to them, so they should be steady, but there's no reason why they can't be sensitive, and that is probably an advantage as you say. But a nervy lab is a bad thing. I've seen them in field trials, and they rarely win top prizes. My breed is the hunter variety so need to be on their toes. Horses for courses as they say.
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Inthehills,
You set me thinking. He WAS kept in his cage a lot in his last home - they had him at the very end of the house away from family life (4 kids...) He also used to bark on demand to be let out. So after listening to everyones thoughts I think he is 'just' settling in to change and unfortunately most dogs might display traits of chewing or crazy behaviour, mine, at the mo, can't hold his own - literally! I always know there's trouble as our other lab goes off and hides as if to say 'I'm having nothing to do with this!'
So yes, possibly cage to him his 'home' and anything outside of that is 'outdoors.' I wonder what my best tactic with that will be! As it happens, I take it as a good sign (security) that he chooses at night to curl on his boot room bed (doors open, access to house and life) and not his cage or pestering in the lounge. I've been putting him in his cage at bedtime though to avoid any 'accidents' and therefore knocking his confidence. However, now I wonder if it's counter productive?!
Time, time and more time methinks! No accidents since date of post though! (probably as were lambing and out the house every blinking 2 minutes!)
Mx
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:fc: :wave:
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No wonder he barked to be let out. In my opinion, a young lab. would be really unhappy if he were caged away from family life for long periods of time. :( Did he have another dog for company? Thinking that your poor chap has maybe missed out on his early education for whatever reason and maybe scolded too much. Maybe he hasn't known much more than that cage. You don't know when you take an older dog.
We all do things differently, but if he were mine, he would only be caged at night. Does he chew or destroy things? If not, then I would barely use a cage. I would have him in the same room as me for as much of the time as possible. If he wasn't distressed about it, I would want him in the lounge in the evenings as well. And then I would treat him like an eight week old pup. When he was awake, outside every 20 minutes or so. Teach him a word to mean empty yourself. Loads of praise. If he had an accident in the house I would not make too much of it. Maybe a quiet and unemotional "no" if caught actually in the act and then straight outside. I would give as few commands to the dog as possible for a few months. Just loads of quiet love and build up to some excited playing as you would with a tiny pup.
If he chooses to lie in his crate for security, I would move it to the room I was in whenever possible (not always easy, I know) and then as with a pup, pop him outside everytime he woke or got out of it.
I would get a vet to check his urine though. We have a pup at the moment that is suffering from water infections. She can't hold herself when the infection flares up and may need further tests if the infection doesn't clear this time. The vet mentioned underlying reasons such as diabetes, problems with not correctly developed water works etc. We can tell when she has an infection as she is generally quiet and her toilet pattern changes. Probably not the case for your dog because you don't mention anything like this but worth checking so that you know that it is a behaviour and not medical problem.
They are clever dogs .... sure he will get it.
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^^^^^^ this - brilliant answer 'in the hills' :thumbsup:
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Hello everyone,
So humbled by all your advice on this I felt I had to bring you all up to date in case you haven't seen my other post 'Canine EPI.' This was what Chester was diagnosed with after a lot of tests and the complete drop off of weight.
He didn't respond to Lypex (synthetic enzyme) and suffered kidney failure. He was a very poorly boy so we had to have him put to sleep at 14months old.
His previous owners were first time dog owners and although it is by no means their fault I think they presumed his illness was 'behavioural' and hence why we bought him... It's understandable. Why would you think your KC regged pup could or would be ill? I have contacted them and recommended they take it up with the breeder.
Thank you for helping out everyone. It prompted me to take him the vets.
Mx
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So sad, poor dog, :bouquet: well at least he is at peace, thanks for the update. KC or no KC, a pup can still carry an illness or disability, unfortunately so can us humans, we tend to forget how many babies are born with problems to healthy parents!!!
We have a litter of chocolate labs due soon, the parents are both health tested and fingers crossed all the pups will be strong and healthy but then who knows????
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I had never really come across this illness, and even hip and eye testing in labs as is required, wouldn't have picked it up. So sorry for you, run free wee lad. :'( :'(
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:bouquet: So sorry. You did all you could and somethings are not meant to be.
I've just had a pup put to sleep. KC reg. and health checks don't sadly guarantee a healthy pup. :'( They can't check for everything unfortunately.
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:bouquet: so sorry to hear this. EPI is common in GSDs and more common now than it used to be in Border Collies but not as common in Labs. ( that I am aware of )
The fact your boy didn't respond to treatment sounds like there was more to it than a hereditary EPI, especially causing kidney failure too. Glad you got a diagnosis for the poor boy, it gives a better understanding why he was acting the way he did.
So sorry for your loss :hug: