The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: FiB on April 18, 2013, 03:17:15 pm
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or it could be more a problem with the first time shepherd!!! day before yesterday had a 'pet lamb' mule ewe ignore and reject her second twin (resulting in new 'pet lamb') and what I decided in hindsight was that I could have done more maybe to get her to accept him... now today another first time mum with twins (but a 'normal' beulah), not out and out rejection - licked them both a bit but kept walking off to graze. the strongest one got up and followed her but the other just left in the middle of the field bleating (no response from mum after about an hour from birth I decided to make a temporary pen on field to see if that would help with the mothering up - so far no probs but they still havnt managed to find her teats. Firstly is the pen OK (big enough) - she has nuts and water in it. secondly how long before I intervene food wise and try and get colostrum off ewe and tube (3 hrs since birth now)? Many thanks anyone Fi xxx I am terrified of intervening too much/too early (which I may have allready done!!!) or not early enough!!!!
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Does the weak lamb suck if you put your finger in it's mouth? Is it warm? if so, have you tried holding the weak lamb up to her teat? (turn the ewe over if necessary, and hook the lamb into her teat) It might just need that initial drink to get it going.
If you can't get it onto her teat then tube it. Get something into it within 6 hours of birth ideally. You might find that after it's first drink it will be ok.
(and yes, that pen size looks fine to me :))
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Sorry i think i might have misread your original post :) (I'm having a blonde day today :-\ ) .. are you saying neither has found the teat after 3 hours, or just the one?
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neither I think (both are burrowing around mostly at the wrong end - but twin No2 looks OK so she may have snuck some. Twin No 1 looking better now and being thoroughly licked so I dont want to go in and manhandle quite yet? Given both a couple of squirts of some lamb start stuff..... THANK YOU for being there :bouquet: :bouquet: . will make sure I do what you have advised within the 6 hours - but a bit more hopefull now that it willhappen naturally as she is looking a lot more motherly!!! Tea in the field tonight I think!!!!
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:) Yes sometimes they sneak a drink when you aren't looking. Give it a bit, and keep an eye on them, then judge it by the size of their tummys. Being in the pen will help the ewe focus her mind on the babies :)
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Fib, Buy a Cox's sheep halter, about a fiver, halter the ewe and if you have a collie dog, put that near it, it will soon get motherly.
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Again, Sally's usual warning to be very careful with the collie dog trick, especially with hill-type sheep. It can make the ewe so aggressive the red mist causes her to head-butt everything around her, including her lambs. :o Yes, even if the collie is not right next to the pen. Far better, IMO, to distract her with cake ;)
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Give the ewe corn and then take hold of a teat, fill it with milk and put it in the lambs mouth. He should start sucking as soon as he tastes the milk. Repeat with second lamb, they normally catch on quite quickly.
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well tried the turning her over and getting them to suckle that way - No joy. at least I know she has milk though. Still mothered up and lambs still having a good go - neither look hunched at the mo..... I'm thinking keep them penned up together overnight and keep checking whilst light. I've not really any practical indoor solution which is a shame as its starting to rain so I know that will compound any coldness possibilities if they havnt had a good feed......
by 6:30 that will be 6 hrs - do I tube anyway or assume/hope that if mothered up AND they are trying AND she has milk that nature will sort? Ah us first time lambers (thats me) are nothing but trouble! Many thanks. (oh and no easy reach shops or collie so that one not an option! I do have cracked corn though - is that better than ewe nuts?)
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Ewe nuts will do fine. If you're not sure a lamb has suckled I'd recommend erring on the side of caution and tubing anyway. The brown fat they're born with gives enough energy for the first six hours but if they don't take in an alternative source of energy by then they become hypothermic very rapidly and then don't have the energy to suck, so on a downhill spiral. The antibodies from the colostrum can only be absorbed for a very short time (around 16 hours maximum) after birth and without them they'll be very susceptible to clostridial diseases, which are everywhere in their environment
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Fi, I feel for you.
Its difficult for us first timers as everything seems to be a problem. My last one to lamb was so enthusiastic in licking him that he couldn't get to the teat. Each time he tried she turned round to lick him some more so the two of them were walking round and round.
In the end I gave her some ewe nuts to keep her occupied and pushed him at her teat while she was busy eating. They both seem to get the message after that. Fingers crossed :fc: that we are both worrying unnecessarily
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You want to be looking at the lambs and not the ewe, they will often feed when you aren't looking. If they have full bellies then they are actually getting milk, you just aint seeing it happen.
I've watched ewes give birth, lick the lamb, have a bit of a graze nearby, have another, lick that, graze a bit whilt the first learns how to get up, let it suck whilst they clean the second.....and so on.
Its almost painful to watch the progress on a ewe lambing outside. You know that the lambs have 4 (or is it 6?) hours of brown fat, and also the ewe knows you are watching. I like watching the process, but If I feel tempted to interfere, I wander off for a bit. I will interfere if one of the lambs has wandered miles from the ewe whilst she is dealing with a second or if the lamb is hunched over. Once you have established you have a suitable breed for outdoor lambing, you just have to lear to trust the ewe.
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You want to be looking at the lambs and not the ewe, they will often feed when you aren't looking. If they have full bellies then they are actually getting milk, you just aint seeing it happen.
I've watched ewes give birth, lick the lamb, have a bit of a graze nearby, have another, lick that, graze a bit whilt the first learns how to get up, let it suck whilst they clean the second.....and so on.
Its almost painful to watch the progress on a ewe lambing outside. You know that the lambs have 4 (or is it 6?) hours of brown fat, and also the ewe knows you are watching. I like watching the process, but If I feel tempted to interfere, I wander off for a bit. I will interfere if one of the lambs has wandered miles from the ewe whilst she is dealing with a second or if the lamb is hunched over. Once you have established you have a suitable breed for outdoor lambing, you just have to lear to trust the ewe.
Thank you. First timers panic I think - dont want to interfere, but end up doing so!!! I will trust them all (and myself) next year!! I bought Lleyn and Beulah because they are supposed to be good mothers and outdoor lambers so I need to chill out and let them get on with it! Do you find a difference in first timer ewes and the older ewes in terms of success/intervention? They were both snuggled up and looking OK at dusk (decide not to tube, but did turn the ewe over and got the weaker one latched on) so fingers crossed. I will get better wih each one! 3 down, 11 to go!! Thanks agin so much all of you - you dont know how much of a comfort it is to have an experienced community out there to share views and help me make my choices. Fi xxx
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Dunno about Belulahs, but most of my breeding is based around a lleyn and a wilts horn (although I do have some fancy mixes). I am in the process of lambing 40 first timers (texel x mule x easycare - went to a suftex ram) ewes that I bought to try some slightly different genetics and out of those, 20 have lambed so far and of those I have had to help 2 - one massive single which I had to pull never really sucked, so I orphaned it at the end of the day (was born 10amish, so it must have been getting something but didn't look like it'd last the night - I might have given it the chance had it not been raining so heavily and one set of twins where the gap between them must have been a long time as the bigger had followed another ewe miles from its dam (and by that I mean across 1 10 ac ad another 5 ac field) whilst it dealt with the runty one. I penned those up for 24 hours and kept checking to see the lambs weren't hungry (I never actually saw them suckle either).
You do learn to leave them alone in time. It is always tempting when a two day old lamb is curled up miles from its mother to pick it up and take it back, but believe me,, you then end up creating a whole world of mess because its bleats then stir up the other ewes, panic ensues etc....In reality the ewe knows damn fine where her lamb is and will come back for it later.
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My own rules of thumb are:
Experienced ewes - generally assume everything is alright unless something is clearly amiss. Of course I still check for plump bellies, and look at the ewe's undercarriage in case of misshapen bag / overlarge teats, etc, when the lambs may need help to find their way on.
First-time ewes - never assume the lamb(s) has/have suckled unless you either see them with the teat in their mouths (it's not enough that they are sucking under there somewhere - they'll suck a piece of wool for ages, waggling their silly little tails apparently happily ::)) or see that they have plump bellies / aren't hollow.
A first-timer with twins, I think I would always pen for a while if I could. Best, if conditions allow, to let her get them birthed and licked, ideally on their feet, before intervening, but then pen them up so she bonds with both. A first-timer with a single that's clearly suckled, and she's mothering it, I'd leave 'em to it unless there's any reason to interfere.
A quiet lamb is generally a happy lamb - but not always. To check, get it up on its feet - it should stretch, and not look hollow.
A hungry lamb generally cries - but not always. Check the crying lamb's belly for plumpness, its ears and inside its mouth for warmth. If ears or especially inside the mouth are cold, take action.
A newly-born hunched-up lamb always needs keeping an eye on / investigating.
In bad weather / poor conditions my preference would be to have all first-timer indoors with their lambs so I can be sure they are mothered up and suckling properly - lambs can founder horribly quickly in cold wet weather. In good years with good grass and warm weather, the singles will probably all do just fine outside.
There's also a large component of knowing the breed / breeding and likely behaviour - but that comes with experience of lambing and of your own sheep.
Don't forget to enjoy it. ;)
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thank you oh wise ones!!!! Having penned her up (on field) last night I made sure they had both had something (turned ewe over and with help of neighbour got milk going and latched them on) they didnt have much but I decided not to tube and left them snuggled up with everything crossed (me)! wet night but both still fine this morning - gave some sneaky powdered colostrum (syringe in mouth, not tube) on advice of farmer frind and turned them out. watched carefully all morning and they are feeding and sunbathing :) :) :) phew. Thanks you all for being there (here?)!! Got off lightly. Learn more each day...
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Yay! :D
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:relief: :thumbsup:
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Well done :thumbsup:
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Glad to hear that things seem to be hunky dory after all the worry! :thumbsup: I've learned not to be complacent with any of mine, it is very painful watching some of the first time mums with their newborns - I had one ewe this year who had twins. She was very attentive to one, but the other was lying in a corner in the stable and she hadn't even licked it dry. When I tried to stand this little ewe lamb up it was evident it couldn't straighten one leg and kept falling over, so the ewe just hadn't bothered with it (they can be so heartless!). I had to tie the ewe up and try to get the little lamb to suckle, but it was very frustrating and not very successful, even though she had a good suckling reflex. I decided to tube her so she had something inside her (as I didn't know precisely when she was born). The mother kept butting her so I wasn't hopeful of her accepting the lamb, but the next morning the lamb was still there although still not standing. What made a big difference was getting some of the ewe's milk and covering the lamb with it - the ewe then started licking the lamb in earnest! Happily she let the lamb suckle and it's now perfectly sound and healthy :) .
I've also had some experienced ewes reject their lambs! One had a twin which was born two hours after the first, and the ewe just would not have anything to do with this lamb, as it had bonded closely with the first born. I tried everything but in the end had to bottle feed it.
Lambing each year (this is my 7th) has brought me different challenges, you never stop learning!
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I cant tell you how much your stories help! Thanks. so much to learn, but by sharing your experiences it at least raises my novice awareness of problems and possible solutions. She is still 'mothering the twins well (attending, shletering looking like they are feeding etc) but one is looking a bit hunched this morning (hard frost in night) and mouth was cold. so I slipped it some warm lam lac and hope that gives it a boost. very sunny day here so at least we are not fighting the weather. they look like little rats, so skinny - and Im very concious that they may be sucking wool (I keep lying down to see if I can see any actual latching on!!!). At least everyone else is popping them out and proceeding as expected.
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Right they are now on day 3, look as rat like and hungry by all the descriptions in tim tyne book - hunched, camel like, tuck head into flank when lying down) as ever, but are still looking like they are feeding (going under her one each side tails waggling etc) and mum looks after them really well. They will follow her and ears are up, head alert....
She is quite a wild one so cant easily catch to see if she has plenty of milk, but she must have some or they wouldnt have got this far? Age old question, oh when to intervene (pref before hungry become hypothermic)?? Can/should I slip them a bottle whilst mums feeding?
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Fi, have you been topping them up at all? If not, then she definitely has some milk or they would be dead by now.
However, they do sound thin and hungry, so it's possible she hasn't enough milk to rear the two of them... in which case, your choices are to top them up in the field and leave them both with mum, or take one off and rear it on the bottle.
You couldn't get a pic or two of them, just to confirm that they do look hungry?
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ha! typical - they look a bit perkier on the photos than they do in really life! As you can see still feeding or trying to feed... The weaker one (whitest one) has been getting the odd end of the pet lambs bottle (no more the 20-50 mls once or twice a day) - but not that interested (weak suck compared to pet lamb) and other one not interested at all.
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They look to me like there not getting enough milk, I'd be topping up morning and night.
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They look a bit hungry to me, but sometimes photos dont tell the whole story.
You can either top them up in the field, orphan them or you could stick a high energy & protien bucket out in the field and feed the ewes instead - might work and be a lot less labour/cost intensive .
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Sally, I lamb between 2,000 and 3,000 ewes a year, and have done so for 20 years, never had a problem with putting a collie in front of a ewe and her lambs. Done it with blackies and swales, not a bother on the dog, may get a butt here and there, but thats the life of a working dog. Where people make a mistake is using the dog trick to get a ewe to take a set on lamb.
Back to the twins, I would suggest taking one off and bottle rearing it and then the other will prob get enough milk. Well done on your persistence and on getting them to day 3, be proud of what you have done.
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Brill you are all such a comfort (and they do look worse in real life). I'm going to top them up on field then. Already a high energy lick on field (red chrytalix) - is there a better one? wish I could take you all out for a thank you pint!
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FiB - have no experience myself but local farmers have loads of lambs that they are having to bottle this year ..... they say it is a hell of a year. They have lost loads too. They have said that the ewes just don't have the milk for them as there is no grass up here yet .... guessing your grass looks low like ours here. They are feeding their ewes double the average and have told me that their suppliers are even running out due to the demand.
Think you are not that far from me .... could this be the problem? ???
Cross posted with you FiB. I found a lick that was for pre and post lambing specifically. Not sure if it is any better ..... previously had the red high energy one too. We are worried too .... as no grass here and local farmers having a hard time.
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Yes, I agree with the others, they look hungry and need more milk. Either top up as you propose and/or give the ewe more feed to help her produce more milk.
Red crystalyx is great for minerals and for ready sugars pre-lambing. But it isn't feed.
Are the ewes getting cake? Ours are still on twice a day - about .75kg between two feeds now, had been on 1kg per head per day until the grass has started to come and the temperatures have risen a little.
If you don't want to give them cake, you can get buckets which are a solid feed. A smallholding friend uses Downland Sheep Natural Energy - her 6 ewes love it, and they are in stonking condition. Mind, even they have been a little short on milk for twins this year - it's been a terrible 12 months for livestock. :(
You know, none of us need any more thanks than that - and seeing that we have helped you get through a difficult situation that was new to you is reward enough. We all get help and support here, and offer it when we can. :hug:
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Thanks. Yes they are on cake twice a day, about the same quantity as yours (must re weigh to make sure). BOC 18% rolls. Our grass is just starting to get a bloom, so fingers crossed that will help soon, and praying for :sunshine: :sunshine: for all! :fc:
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Ewes looking out for their lambs - general rule of thumb around here is that for the first three weeks or so if the lamb bleats the ewe will go and find it. After that the ewe will bleat and expect the lamb to come and find her! Doesn't always work that way. We have a 9 year old ewe that's a really good mother but her lambs this year were hoarse with bleating after the first day outside and when we called her she didn't respond - she's gone deaf! Put her back in a small field where the lambs can easily find her. "The Lamb That Lost Its Bleat" - sounds like a children's story!
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Our grass is just starting to get a bloom, so fingers crossed that will help soon, and praying for :sunshine: :sunshine: for all! :fc:
Amen to that!