The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Skip on April 11, 2013, 10:53:19 am
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I have a 18mos old collie and she is too smart for her own good and her recalls are terrible when she is out in the big wide world. She does great in the back garden etc but when out for training or walking she takes off and eventually comes back but on her own terms. I realise that she is probably sticking two fingers up to me and she is still young but she needs to know her recalls for Agility and Working Trials, as I have not been able to get her on sheep,which would be ideal. Does anyone have any tips or advice? I have started going back to basis with the long rope but now worried to let her off again.
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Very high value treats - cooked chicken, sausage - I've had to do that with my working Brittanys on a number of occasions as their hunt instinct is so strong. Keep her on a line util her recall is 100% instant every time.
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personally when I was struggling with my previous collie ... who came instantly for a treat whilst in mid field but as soon as he detected a homeward turn became deaf!! ... best advice I've ever had .... try a ball not titbits.... took me a total of 30 mins to get total recall.... collies they have their own rules and that's why we lov 'em :excited:
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Wouldn't work with my gundogs. :innocent: We teach them to refrain from chasing rabbits with balls :eyelashes:
But if they know I have a pocket of high value treats - it has to be high value once the recall has gone and needs to be retrained. (Chicken, pheasant, liver, sausage) Ordinary packet treats from the shops don't work. :gloomy: They get a come ba\ck reward every time for the first four or five, then just high praise on the next one, and they are like bullets next time. :excited:
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Also could you try a long line for a start while out, let it out and then do re call with something more interesting to your dog,....but...I do know how you feel, we had a patterdale cross, his recall was excellent until he decided he found something better to go after, then no way would he come back, he was castrated young too so not after the ladies, we were on a farm for the first few months living up here in Scotland and I actualy took raw meat out and gave it to every one, no way did he show any interest at all, we got him eventualy by me talking all excited and running away from him, another time I lay down by a ark pond so he came back to check how I was!!! can you not get something that looks like live bate, eg, a rabbit skin, a dead pheasant or similar? I am not familiar with many breeds as I have labs and they would drop anything for any treat, I often get the opposite problem, if mine know I have nice treats they stay too near to me
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Skip, I can sympathise. My dog is about the same age and turns a deaf ear when he wants to. A ball, or any toy certainly won't do it for him.
He likes little bits of bread but even thats not enough when he is really interested in something else.
Annie, I will try the high value treats too.
thanks
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A dead animal tied in a stocking/sock or tights helps!!!! :thumbsup:
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That's what mine retrieve, goes back in the freezer during season :excited:
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I slug a pheasants wing in one of my cut off tights and it went high up into a tree so I spent ages trying to rock the tree with Rhum pushing me while I pushed the tree, it was funny and so is she!!!! at least it was a black stocking and not one of my red ones :innocent:
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Having both gundogs and sheepdogs the difference between them is fascinating! Generally collies aren't too bothered about food but gundogs are - but find out what floats your dogs boat. Long line or just let off lead in an enclosed area where it can't get out, and make yourself the most interesting thing in that area! Get the dog to chase you, make a fuss when it catches up to you - being next to you is THE best place it's such FUN!!
You can also teach a drop (down) that can often stop a dog bogging off, and collies seem to respond to that. If you get the dog to drop then you can walk out to it and put a lead on (but obviously don't do this every time because it will soon get wise). Whether your dog is going to be a pet, agility, WT or sheep dog - you need a recall.
Good luck! Hope I don't come over as too know it all as I dont'! I'm having great problems with a young setter who in addition to bogging off has added escapology to her many talents. She is spending most of the time on a lead now - even in the garden ::) ::)
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Well said, Shep, none of us know it all! Even after owning, working, showing, and breeding gundogs for over 40 years I still learn new things. My boy can't take his feet off teh ground in water just now - got a scare - so he's getting swimming lessons - in a nice warm pool, and I will get my lifelong wish soon - being able to swim with him. Pauline says that will give him more confidence than anything if I go in with him.
It's Doggie Paddles in Fife. http://doggiepaddles.co.uk/ (http://doggiepaddles.co.uk/)
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Try running backwards away from the dog (so your facing it) being excitable with treats or toys?
Worked for me recently when I was having problems recalling with my collies, also I was given good advice on here to do the training in different locations, good advice - it's worked for me.
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We start ours off in the house. Let them run around in the house and garden, 3 pips on the whistle and hold a piece of food in your hand. May take a while but eventually they'll come and investigate. Just repeat and after a few goes, remove the treat and just give praise/affection
Out in the field is a different matter but our younger one is improving. Not easy with strong willed gundogs...
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Well thanks for all that info and I am sure out of all that I will come out on top! So if you see somebody coming down the road with sausages hanging round my neck and sweaty old sock plus stockings and a few dead animals dragging behind me with about 20 collies following you will know I have definitely cracked it :excited:
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:roflanim: :roflanim:
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:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
and if there is a setter following you too - please let me know it will be mine :roflanim: :roflanim:
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Top tips:
- A dog that comes is a good dog. Always, every time, without exception. No matter what it did before it came, no matter how long it took to come. You are looking for a dog whose safe and eventually instinctual automatic choice has to be, always, every time, to come to you. So you have to be a safe and rewarding place to be.
- Find the right motivator for your dog. For a gundog it is probably food. For a collie it is probably not food. Find its obsession - ball, plastic bottle, ragger toy, carrot, stick, whatever, and work on making that a real obsession. Collies are the epitome of OCD, so this shouldn't be too hard! Then the object of its obsession is the treat; that and your approval/affection when it comes to you.
- A dog that comes is a good dog. Always, every time, without exception. No matter what it did before it came, no matter how long it took to come. Even if you just asked it to Stay! Yes, even if you just asked it to Stay. Maybe you don't praise it to high heaven, but it must still think that coming to you is always a good idea, a safe and pleasant place to be, a good choice to make. You can work on Stay some more when you have a 100% bulletproof guaranteed recall. ;)
- Repeat, repeat, repeat. Repeat some more. Do it all again. And again. You want that recall faster than thought, automatic. Coming when called must be safe, rewarding, a nice place to be. Not always the treat but always always safe and pleasant - a pat or a stroke and some praise.
- A dog that comes is a good dog. Always, every time, without exception. ;)
There's an enormous amount I don't know about dogs and probably some things I think I know that I could learn to do differently and better.
But all my dogs have, and all my dogs after the first one have had, a 100% bulletproof guaranteed immediate recall.
A dog that comes is a good dog. Always, every time, without exception. Ask me how I know. ;)
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:thumbsup: , now if we could only train partners or children like that :-J
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:thumbsup: , now if we could only train partners or children like that :-J
Oh, it works, trust me ;)
When I ran my own company, one of the members of my team had to give me just about the worst news I could have received at that point in the company's development. We had an open plan area - most of the top floor of a converted granary, beautiful it was - so she came and stood next to my desk and calmly told me the devastating facts. A hush had descended on the room. I digested what she'd told me and we sat down and worked through our options and best course of action for damage limitation.
Later she told me that her colleagues had feared for her having to deliver such a bombshell. Afterwards they'd asked her how she'd had the nerve to do it, and so calmly too.
"Ah," she'd smiled. "A dog that comes is a good dog. ;)"
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Sorry to disagree but there is ONE exception.
If you have a pointing dog the LAST thing you want is for that dog to come off point.
So, in the main, for working pointing dogs at least you need to know pretty well where your dog is so that if they don't recall straight away you know it is on point and you need to go find it.
One thing that does help is a bell attached to the collar, (they use these in France) but that in itself causes problems since normally you work a gundog without a collar (in case it gets caught on something). So it eventually comes down to a) have a damn good recall b) have a damn good idea where your dog is when you send it out - you can't always see them in the terrain you find birds, so you need to have sharp eyes and good instincts.
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Again thank you very much for replying to my dilemma. And the ideas that everyone has come up with is excellent. It does give you some new ideas to work on. I am a strong believer that all dogs needs to have some simulation in their lives, just to keep their brain active. I am sure that I will win over in the end with Pip the dog, trying all the different methods and ways. So I would like to thank everybody that replied to me. If you are interested I will keep in touch with Pip's progress as it would be good to find out which one does the trick. I have trained Pip to skip but that is another story and I won't go into that on this occasion. :excited: :fc: Regards Pip
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My problem has never been recall Rascal is very good but when I am out working in the stables I take the dogs with me. Jake does what all terriers do, hunt for mice but Rascal would sneak away and disappear.Now his thing are squeaky toys so when I go out I take one of his toys and play with him for a little while then go and get on with my jobs. he hangs around for ages just waiting to see if I will play which I always do before taking them back indoors. So far this works which keeps us both happy.
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Food works with my husband :innocent: .....I blew the whistle to alert him last week and he took no notice what so ever......I am talking about my husband as my dogs do listen to me!!
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Well thanks for all that info and I am sure out of all that I will come out on top! So if you see somebody coming down the road with sausages hanging round my neck and sweaty old sock plus stockings and a few dead animals dragging behind me with about 20 collies following you will know I have definitely cracked it :excited:
:roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim: :roflanim:
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:roflanim: :roflanim:
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No treats of any type work with our dog when he cocks a deaf 'un.
Working beautifully (basic gundog) around our farm but the minute he goes through the gate it all goes out the window. He works on the principal of if he doesn't look at you, he can't hear you either, so never recalls.
It's the same when visitors are here. No training whatsoever, not even sit. Then the minute they go, good as gold.
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My 15 month old setter can be a nightmare when something exciting catches his attention and my patience has been tried on soooo many occasions :innocent: High value treats have helped but in new environments he can still test those boundaries. We used a long line but, hopefully those of you with boisterous breeds will enlighten me, He would go exploring and I would end up getting a massive shoulder wrenching jolt when he reached the end of the line. He also was very good at getting tangled in it, tried it up high and low to the ground but those lanky setter legs just ended up in a mess. Even went on a long line training course and they just shrugged at my poor pooch wrapped up :o I trust him in our four acres but not if we go for a walk across the fields - oh the delights of setters ::)
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Is this more a male thing? :sofa: any male dog I have had has been the same as well as any "male" anything...selective hearing!!
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Is this more a male thing? :sofa: any male dog I have had has been the same as well as any "male" anything...selective hearing!!
No, my male dog is well behaved. My bitch is completely deaf when it suits her. I can bellow pretty loudly when I have to and sometimes it's the only way to get her attention. Then I can drop the volume and coax her in...
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No treats of any type work with our dog when he cocks a deaf 'un.
Working beautifully (basic gundog) around our farm but the minute he goes through the gate it all goes out the window. He works on the principal of if he doesn't look at you, he can't hear you either, so never recalls.
It's the same when visitors are here. No training whatsoever, not even sit. Then the minute they go, good as gold.
You haven't got focus yet then so why is he allowed to be free outside your own secure area?
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My father trains gundogs. As puppies they are taught recall by word association ...... come command given as they are naturally running towards you and big fuss made of them, same at feed time as the run to feed bowl, etc. Always lots of fuss for coming back and as others have said, never a reprimand once they return (however long it took ::) ). He would be careful never to give a come command if he thought it likely that the dog was in a situation in which he would ignore the command. As the dog reached 7 months of age, the recall and other basic training would begin eg. sit, stay Until this age the dog would be allowed to be a baby and would have had no obedience lessons as such. Once the dog knew the come command he would be expected never to dis-obey. If he did my father would run to the dog (needs to be done carefully so dog almost doesn't see you coming ie. choose your spot) grab hold of him by the scruff and pull him towards you giving the come command. Let go, walk back a couple of steps and in a happy voice say come, come and reward.
I asked my collie training neighbour, how he achieved a good recall. He described the same approach. I said that it was just the same then as getting a retriever to recall and he laughed and said that a gundog trainer had in fact taught him that technique. He had in the past never gone after the dog if it ignored a recall believing the dog would see it as a game but that he had tried it and found it to be very effective and had not failed him and so he had adopted it.
You are not in a way punishing for the ignored recall but letting the dog know that he cannot just do his own thing because he feels that there is some distance between him and you.
:sofa: I know ..... you should never physically punish a dog, some will say. Yes, some will say that you can get a good recall by just using treats or whatever. Well, my Flattie wouldn't care if you were waving a prime steak at him ..... he is not bothered about food or toys ..... in some situations. I have done the above and if done correctly have found that it works and works quickly. Not sure how effective it would be on older dogs as they are set more in their ways and have learned to "get away with it". It is a technique used by SOME gundog trainers and you need to observe your dog carefully as to how they react to it. Just thought that it may help someone ..... a dog without a decent recall can get itself into trouble.
OhLaLa - my Flattie uses visitors as an excuse to be very silly and do as he pleases. Not so much now he is older. I had to explain to visitors that I would have to give my attention to him for a while and he then realizes that yep, one of my eyes is on him even though I am chatting and he still has to be a good lad. Quite clever of them really.
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OhLaLa - my Flattie uses visitors as an excuse to be very silly and do as he pleases. Not so much now he is older. I had to explain to visitors that I would have to give my attention to him for a while and he then realizes that yep, one of my eyes is on him even though I am chatting and he still has to be a good lad. Quite clever of them really.
Yes at least 2 of my setters learnt that if I stopped to talk with someone my eye was off them and they'd b*gger off! So now I say excuse me one minute and put the lead on before I start a conversation!
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You haven't got focus yet then so why is he allowed to be free outside your own secure area?
Firstly, at no point does my post mention he is 'free'. Neither does it mention he is outside our own 'secure area'. Gates go to fields, and we own them.
Secondly - having read your 'good riddence' comments (to me and others), I'd rather you didn't reply to my posts.
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Funny that our little Patterdale cross was excellant until he was 2 then changed when he became older......nothing at all would get him to come back, the funny moment was when I lay on the floor in a park so he would come to see what was wrong, that worked that time, hes long gone now thanks to a guest leaving the front door open but he had no interest in much at all.....no way would I be able to get back up now but my girls are good as gold........ :thumbsup: