The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Pets & Working Animals => Dogs => Topic started by: Lostlambs on April 06, 2013, 01:28:15 pm
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I have a 2 year old border collie\great pyrenees cross female that has taken a liking to lamb chop. She has been coming along well for me working with the sheep and cows before this. My daughters older german shepherd cross started this as she was left out of the house unattended by accident and is known for her hunt characteristics and was caught grabbing a lamb. I've tried what I know of but am losing as I've lost 2 lambs. Keeping her in is not possible here as well as tying her as she goes batty if left tied. She will only go after a lamb when no ones around-overnight. she knows what she's done as when I come out she slinks away when she see's me.My guardian Pyrenees who she's been raised with doesn't interfere maybe because he doesn't see her as a threat being raised with him.
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We had two crossbred bitches, Anatolian Karabash x Irish Wolfhound (the karabash is a sheep guardian pretty much like the Pyrenees), 2 yo.
One was superb as both a guardian and because she got on with the flock and didn't stray. Her sister was not superb - she fought viciously with our other dogs then escaped and attacked our neighbour's flock, requiring 3 ewes to be put down.
Our view, and that of the neighbour too, was that it would not be possible to change her liking for chasing and attacking sheep (she never attacked ours, but then she knew them individually). We could have sought to rehome her away from livestock but because of the fighting with the other dogs on top of the sheep worrying, we took the very difficult decision to have her euthanased. She seemed to be two different animals - the quiet and loving indoor dog, then a killer outdoors. We couldn't risk her being rehomed with children or other pets, so it was our responsibility to make the decision.
My feeling, in spite of having one of the sisters as a wonderful guardian dog until she died of natural causes, is that crossing a dog which has been bred for one purpose such as guarding sheep with another which is bred for something different - in your case herding sheep, in my case killing wolves - can lead to offspring which don't know which way to turn and end up having to be put down.
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options:
tie her up
build her a kennel with a run attached
put to sleep
electric collar (although if you cant watch her all the time this wouldn't work)
rehome
Sorry but none of these are very nice :-(
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If Shes a good house dog I'd pursue the rehoming, just not through RSPCA etc.., but if it was me I'd be building a kennel & run somehow, my lurcher is not even slightly stock safe, he never goes off the lead, bearing in mind he was a proper stray when we got him and went completely loopy whenever he was constrained by any form of tying or leash, he's now much more relaxed with it all, still it took a year and he's still work in progress, so if you've got the time, loads of lead work etc, then introduce tying up when she's tired, leaving for progressivly longer periods etc and eventually the dog should accept being tied but it goes down to the time and effort you honestly have available
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This is the ONE instance where I would advocate using an electric collar - get a professional dog trainer who uses them though. The dog is allowed to run loose in a field with the sheep and the second it goes after one it is zapped. It usually works teh first time, but A friend who has done it said one dog he had in needed three sessions. But they never go near sheep again.
The alternative is as above - keep the dog in a secure run when you are not with it.
Re-homing is NOT the answer as that is passing on the problem to somebody else and that is unfair
If you don't do one or the other then the final needle is the only way.
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Re-homing is NOT the answer as that is passing on the problem to somebody else and that is unfair
Reply number 4, typed this 3 times already.....
Just NO, rehoming CAN be the answer, I've rescued a dog, he's a challenge but it's rewarding, it just needs the right home, he'd be dead now otherwise... Oooooo I'm getting on one of my hobby horses now
That dog, isolated from livestock (town or city) would prob ably do well, I don't know the dog so couldn't comment further
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I agree. If the dog is fine in situations other than around livestock then rehoming away from this situation with people who have time to keep up training would be a good solution. If there is no livestock then there is no problem. Obviously making the perspective owners aware of the problem so they can avoid such situations.
She may make a town family very happy and be much happier herself once livestock and urge to chase them are removed from her life.
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Ok, you re-home the dog, you tell the new owner, for a long time all is fine and dandy, then they relax, they forget and go on a caravan holiday on a farm, the dog gets out, the dog kills a sheep, the dog gets shot, the owners get sued. Far better to cure the problem.
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I have to agree with Doganjo on this one, A sheep killer is always a sheepkiller in my opinion, they may stop for a while and you build up a false sense of trust but the second you let your guard down they will kill again
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Yes, but an e-collar can cure the problem. I wouldn't touch them for any other reason and as I said a pro trainer is required, but I have seen it work.
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Even the electric Collars only work for so long, once they stop doing it and they are behaving you stop putting the collar on and they soon learn that no collar no shock
Someone I know of used one on the border terrier that kept going off hunting and not coming back when called.
It got to the point the dog never left her side when off the leash but as soon as she stopped putting the collar on the dog was away , still if she puts the collar on and not once pressing the button the dog never leaves her side but take the collar off and the dog vanishes into the distance
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For a young dog ( which at 2 yrs a pyrenees is ) which only manages to kill lambs when left unsupervised at night, I can see no reason why a town home wouldn't suit. Even holidaying in sheep areas it wouldn't be left out with lambs.
I would give her a chance.
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Even the electric Collars only work for so long, once they stop doing it and they are behaving you stop putting the collar on and they soon learn that no collar no shock
Someone I know of used one on the border terrier that kept going off hunting and not coming back when called.
It got to the point the dog never left her side when off the leash but as soon as she stopped putting the collar on the dog was away , still if she puts the collar on and not once pressing the button the dog never leaves her side but take the collar off and the dog vanishes into the distance
That is the wrong way to use the collar. It must be left on the dog for a minimum of two weeks without using it in any way whatsoever so that the dog does not realise the collar is the cause of any vibration. ONLY then should the dog be allowed near what you are trying to avert it from. As I said before a professional trainer should be enlisted for assistance on this.
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For a young dog ( which at 2 yrs a pyrenees is ) which only manages to kill lambs when left unsupervised at night, I can see no reason why a town home wouldn't suit. Even holidaying in sheep areas it wouldn't be left out with lambs.
I would give her a chance.
You can walk in places where there are no sheep,.....and those collars are good, we know a lady with Deer Hounds, she had colars made.
Plenty of excesses maybe get the dog trained to pull you on a trolley thing like they do around here....you may end up in a field of sheep though :innocent: ...joking apart, plenty of excesses and kenneled with a good run is better than being chained up.......I hate that idea as they can get tangled if not careful, the dog needs re training and sounds like it also has separation anxiety, so only leave for a short time then make it longer and longer!!!!
Can you take the dog with you in the car? mine love a car ride!!! I would certainly invest in an electric colar and try to get a farmer with a huge ram to help out.......although you will need a lot of patience but please make sure the dog is never allowed out near any farms!!
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I love the fact that where we enjoy a walk the farmer has electric fences now, our dogs will not go near them, there are only horses in the field though as we do keep away from sheep!!
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Even the electric Collars only work for so long, once they stop doing it and they are behaving you stop putting the collar on and they soon learn that no collar no shock
Someone I know of used one on the border terrier that kept going off hunting and not coming back when called.
It got to the point the dog never left her side when off the leash but as soon as she stopped putting the collar on the dog was away , still if she puts the collar on and not once pressing the button the dog never leaves her side but take the collar off and the dog vanishes into the distance
That is the wrong way to use the collar. It must be left on the dog for a minimum of two weeks without using it in any way whatsoever so that the dog does not realise the collar is the cause of any vibration. ONLY then should the dog be allowed near what you are trying to avert it from. As I said before a professional trainer should be enlisted for assistance on this.
That is how the collar was used and all was going well, we are talking 10 months after the collar was used that she would still go awol when she didnt have the collar on
The main reason she was being stopped is because she would go after the phesant pens
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After a lot of soul-searching and weighing the possibilities, I made the hard decision to put both dogs down. The last ewe mourned her lost lamb all day. With both, one was very old and the vet's opinion was that she was probably starting dementia and the collie cross was just too good at the hunt to be adoptable here. It's difficult getting to that decision by yourself but getting all your feedback really helps. Hard week so far.
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Funny thing I have had your dog on my mind too, sometimes it is the only option, its better in the long run for all concerned, sad for you but that's nothing to say you did anything wrong...you need some support......I re homed a dog as both me and my husband argued constantly about him, he was lovely, I adored him, his recall was great unless he did not want to come back then he was off.......he also knocked me over a few times and I could not hold him on walks when I saw people with dogs on leads etc, he was never ever aggressive, but he had strong will that I could not cope with when on my own, and if I took him out on his own then took the others seperatley he would howel, he could not be left at all....my other dogs are fully under my controle but he wasn't, poor boy I felt he needed a one to one owner...we found him a lovely family then I saw they advertised him on Gumtree a few months later, I had tears in my eyes and asked for him back but they did not respond.....that still makes me feel guilty.......we gave him away and they sold him!!!! that's life...I just hope my lovely boy got a nice home as my brother should have had him but I gave him to some one nearer!!! So we all get that guilt feeling about our dogs but not so much about farmed animals!!!!!! You made the right choice!! :bouquet:
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:bouquet: :bouquet: That must have been hard. But at least you haven't passed the problem to someone else and have been very responsible. You did what you believe to be right. :bouquet: :bouquet:
I wish more people would do the responsible thing, it's so sad to see half starved dumped dogs that get picked up and taken to the pounds only to eventually be pts.
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:bouquet: very difficult decision for you but the right one for your situation.
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A very difficult and brave decision to make ....... and thank you for letting us know the outcome her.
I hope in time you might think about getting another dog
Best wishes
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I was in that situation too a couple of years ago. My lovely, gentle with people, lurcher developed a taste for sheep and there was no way to unlearn him that behaviour, although I did try. An electric collar wasn't an option as I live in Wales and they are banned here. I made the decision to have him PTS. I took him to the vet, explained the problem very clearly and left him with them. They phoned later refusing to PTS him and said that they would rather rehome him. Naturally I was very upset and angry at them, so I said I'd come and pick him up. They said they'd refuse to release him to me as I was going to take him to another vet to put him to sleep. Looking back, I wish I'd gone and got him but at the time I was so upset, I left him with them. I know he went to a rehoming kennel and I think he got rehomed in London. I didn't want to pass his problem on to anyone else as he was starting to chase after anything that moved, including cats. I've no idea where he is now and I do regret not being more assertive with the vets but they were very off with me over the phone, as if I were the worlds worst dog owner! His habit developed at the age of 2.5 after he'd been taught not to chase livestock, natural instinct kicked in and I couldn't stop it.
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:hug: :hug: :hug: Brijjy :hug: :hug:
I've been on the receiving end of being treated like a heartless owner by vets, and it's horrible. Arrogant :rant: :rant:.
I have always stayed with my dogs and cats when they've been PTS, so haven't been in exactly that situation - but have had to withstand 'looks' from the attending vet, who doesn't know the whole story and has no right to judge my decision. :rant: And I did, years ago, have a similar situation in which the vets said they would rehome rather than PTS a mad doe rabbit I took in. Of course she behaved like Little Miss Perfect Pet when I took her in. ::) I heard later she savaged several of them and they put her down. (Need an 'I told you so' emotiwotsit. ;))
I did take a friend's "Springador" that had developed a sheep-chasing habit to The Dogs Trust for them, and was extremely impressed with the staff there. They assessed the dog without reference to me, then came and interviewed me - and told me a lot about the dog, demonstrating that they had a lot of knowledge, insight and experience. In his case, they said they'd continue assessment for at least a week, so that they were certain they knew him well enough to select the right owners for him.
I left feeling confident that they'd do a good job of placing him in an appropriate home - and would give the new owners plenty of instruction in how to manage him.
I could tell rather too many different stories about various RSPCA rehoming centres, I'm afraid. :( Not least a dog I adopted who had a child-biting habit that eventually led me to being at the vets, holding my otherwise healthy and by then very much loved dog, as he slipped away... :'(
I hope your horrid vets at least put your lurcher through a Dogs Trust, or equally good rehoming service. But it's out of order (in fact, I think you could possibly sue them, or at the very least complain to the Royal College) to not put the dog down when that's the instruction you've given them and the basis on which they took the dog from you.
Rather than treat you as they did, they should be applauding your strength of character in making a very difficult but altruistic and correct decision about your much-loved pet.
:bouquet:
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Its a hard thing to do but the right thing. A dog going from home to home only adds to the problem and quite often giving free means someone intends to make money on the animal wither its breeding , selling or dog fighting. Not everyone who seems nice is !
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we've got similar issues. We were on the look out for a collie now we have a few sheep etc and was put in touch with a lady who had a lovely 18month old collie dog but she wasn't able to care for him properly, no space ti run, dog full of energy and she reckoned that really he just needed to work. Her alternative was for him to be PTS. We took him and he certainly is a lovely dog, good natured etc etc UNTIL he sees a sheep/lamb/goat etc etc then he turns into this carnivorous monster! This poor dog has probably never seen any of these before, we've tried various ways of introducing him to the livestock but nothing has worked.
The lady we got him from is not interested in taking him back and recommends we have him PTS. I feel so sorry for this poor dog. Anyway I have contacted local animal rescue and asked them if they can help but they have no space at present so he's still here for the time being. I hate the way I am the one thats made to feel like the failure, when really we were his last hope.
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So sad and so hard to make that decision, I have no clever things to add or advise but I see the current trend for dogs such as the big wolf types that I fear a lot of those will be sold to people who cannot train or cope with their needs so they will end up unwanted and hard to re home.
Years ago my daughter had the brother of a pup we had, it was a Rottweiler crossed with a border collie, mine was always excellent and was more Rottweiler but hers was far too snappy and more like a border collie, it did bite some one once so it had to be put to sleep, so sad but some dogs get a very bad start and some are genetically difficult to train and handle!!!
I feel for you :bouquet: think a few of us have had similar issues but do not always admit to it!!