The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Livestock => Sheep => Topic started by: Old Shep on March 26, 2013, 05:43:04 pm
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Last year we had a problem with big lambs from Texel shearlings causing all sorts of birthing problems. So this year the shearlings have been on a much reduced diet and put to a Suffolk/Texel X tup who got reasonably sized lambs last year with the ewes. So far 2 of the 6 shearlings have lambed big singles again and one was so huge it needed a C section. Not looking forward to the others lambing :-(
So looking ahead to next year when we will have 10 texel and texel suffolk crosses as shearlings, and 10 Lleyns. Presuming the Lleyns will be ok with a texel tup as easy lambing is one of the reasons we got them. But we are wondering whether to look at an alternative tup to buy in to put to the Texel shearlings that would get small lambs or twins rather than singles. For their second crop then we would go back to using the usual tups. What do you recommend? Nothing fancy and expensive obviously for only 10 sheep!
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Something smallish - southdown maybe?
Something 'pointy' - charollais?
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What sort of condition were they in? Big lambs are frequently the result of feeding rather than breeding.
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Shetland every time for me :thumbsup:
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What sort of condition were they in? Big lambs are frequently the result of feeding rather than breeding.
That's my understanding too. Do you have them scanned? If so, you can split of the singles and just give them hay and a lick.
Charolais seem to be easy lambing but they aren't very hardy as they don't have much wool when born.
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Depending on where you are Charolais, would be a good bet!
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What sort of condition were they in? Big lambs are frequently the result of feeding rather than breeding.
I agree, but from what I hear of most flocks of pure Texels - a lot of lambs need pulling/ceasaring.
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They were on grass with a bit of hay on frosty/snowy mornings until 2 weeks before lambing and then 2-300gms of ewe nuts - so not overfed this time I would have thought? From second crop onwards they seem to be fine its just the first lambing.
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Ah, what you need is a Roger the Ram! He serves our old Texel ewes and this year's lambs are splendid. Furthermore we had no problems lambing. The old girls did it out in the paddock, with no need of assistance from us, and we brought them in by picking up their lambs and the ewes just followed. Roger's a bit of a Heinz 57 and is a little smaller than the Texels. But it's results that count!
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Ah, what you need is a Roger the Ram! He serves our old Texel ewes and this year's lambs are splendid. Furthermore we had no problems lambing. The old girls did it out in the paddock, with no need of assistance from us, and we brought them in by picking up their lambs and the ewes just followed. Roger's a bit of a Heinz 57 and is a little smaller than the Texels. But it's results that count!
;D does he have a brother?? ;D
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You could use a Lleyn - a lot of strains of Lleyn look like they have some Texel in them somewhere.
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I think I've got the answer! we had a similar problem i.e. large lambs that all had to be pulled. this is our third year at lambing and this year so far we haven't had to pull a single one and have'nt lost any nither. We started with 6 lowland commercial ewes with three ewe lambs they had a mix of texel, charollais and lleyn in them and for the first two years we borrowed tups including a texel, charollais and suffolk for free from the farmer we bought the ewes from. 90% had to be pulled and there were several dead on delivery. We were understocked and thus had loads of grass over the wintern in the first two years and we cautiously over fed them with concentrate in our ignorance so the singletons in particular were massive. We have kept ewe lambs every year and are now up to 21 ewes and grass is very scarce but the lambs, nearly all twins come out themselves. The key bit is the tup we now use - a soay! We were "donated" two soay ewes by a neighbour and when crossed with a texel or charollais tup, we were so impressed by the lambs and the milkyness and mothering qualities of the soays, we bought a pedigree registered soay ram lamb for £50. Last autumn we put him to the whole flock and hey presto the results are now to be seen - all twins, all self-delivered outside and tough as nails in this horrible weather. Although initially small and will not make the 40kg, they'll be a reasonable size by next autumn. For us the benefits of easy lambing far outweighs the final size. We've also kept some of the soay cross ewe lambs and crossed them back to a soay tup to get a three quarters soay lamb. They look and taste like a soay but are bigger meatier and mature faster - the best of both worlds - perhaps I should breed these pure and market them as a new easycare breed! sorry that's already been done once here on Anglesey!!
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Lleyn or Char is what you maybe needing. Or a Blue faced Leicster. All are narrower of the shoulders. Strangely Beltex lambs are very small shouldered at birth ausully pose almost no lambing troubles but they can put a serious drain on young ewes due to their high milk demands once the are on the ground. Be tougher on you ewes through the winter and try to get the fat score bang on at tupping to increase multiples. Texels are famous for low lambing percentages. The tup has nothing to do with the numbers of lambs in the ewe sadly, only nutritional control will help there.
A really nice cross for breeding ewe lmbs would be a zwartable ram. Cheap to buy, easy lambing. The cross ewes are the best cross I've worked with but they do all come out black! On my own texels I use a NC Cheviot ram. I'm hard on the ewes in the run up to lambing but I admit I do get some problems at lambing. I sponge my ewes which makes being there at lambing much more time efficient due to them all lambing over 5 days. If sponging is some thing that you don't know about or want to know more about, if you think that would help you the message me or ask your vet.
It is a personal thing and no offence is meant but if I am keeping nice texel ewes that will produce 42kg lambs at E grade carcass a 15-17 week old why would I use a primitive breed ram that will never make 40kg as a lamb, only be an R or O grade carcass an take months to finish when there are viable and readily available commercial options to try first that will still provided readily marketable product which will still help solve the problem of stiff lambing???? If primitives are what you want surely the more economic option would be to keep the smaller easier managed primitive ewes and use a commercial ram on them?
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Number of lambs is down to the ewe more than the tup. Don't flush them to try to get singles, or flush hard to try to get twins. IMO, first-timers are best with just one, really. And do need caked or there won't be enough milk - so a small and/or narrow and/or slippery lamb is what you need.
One of the top pedigree Beltex breeders near us has just bought a Shetland tup to use on his first-timers.
Otherwise, we have found Charollais to give easy lambing, and active lambs that want to suckle.
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Thanks - some good ideas there! I need "BigBennyShep" to have a read and see what he thinks (he's the boss :-) )
If we used a Lleyn tup would the lambs be smaller than ?
We have couple of charryX ewes and they're mental, so the thought of a Charry tup is a bit daunting! BFL's seem to have a death wish. A Shet or Soay could be a possibility.
[size=78%]It is a personal thing and no offence is meant but if I am keeping nice texel ewes that will produce 42kg lambs at E grade carcass a 15-17 week old why would I use a primitive breed ram that will never make 40kg as a lamb, only be an R or O grade carcass an take months to finish when there are viable and readily available commercial options to try first that will still provided readily marketable product which will still help solve the problem of stiff lambing?[/size] ??? [size=78%] If primitives are what you want surely the more economic option would be to keep the smaller easier managed primitive ewes and use a commercial ram on them?[/size]
It's only for their first lambing, then they will go to the Texel tup after that. We realise that there would be an economic hit - but then maybe not if the % of live lambs is better and no C sections!
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Our Charollais sheep are all soft as butter, very tame.
I don't know about Lleyn lambs being smaller, sorry.
I agree about BFL and death wish - they are very soft sheep.
I don't know where you are, but amongst smallholders, and handspinners, I would have thought that Texel x Shetland sheep (and their meat and their fleece) would be popular... :thinking: Some of your local farmers may even like some Texel x Shetland ewe lambs - Shetlands are renown for being able to produce and rear commercial-size lambs with ease.
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I had a couple shetland x charly lambs last year and got £50 per half in November :thumbsup:
They grow like weeds and are very pretty too.
Also Shetlands are fairly easy to get hold of for a reasonable price, especially if you don't need registered.
The Skins make a pretty penny too ;)
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I had a couple shetland x charly lambs last year and got £50 per half in November :thumbsup:
They grow like weeds and are very pretty too.
Ooo, goody; I've got three of these due in a couple of weeks :)
The Skins make a pretty penny too ;)
And I'm hoping for lovely fleeces for handspinning :excited: :knit:
Mustn't count my chickens lambies before they're hatched born
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The Texels pelvis is a different shape ( quite obvious if you have ever tried to lamb one) and thats the main problem with them.
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We use a nice Beulah Speckled on our hogs and have no problems, the growth rate is very good from heavier milking mums as I also put him to some of my pretty older ewes in the hope of follow ons and one of his went with the first batch of texel cross lambs last summer.
Our first hog this year has just lambed and she did it with what seemed remarkable ease, it is a nice big pretty speckled girl, mum is cheviot/texel with loads of milk.
We have to change the tup this year as we now have too many of his daughters as both not in lamb hogs and hopefully this years follow ons.
Have a lovely texel for the older ewes and have had to pull three out of 23 so far, to be fair one had his legs back and I probably overfed the other two as they were scanned as twins.
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If you go to the ram sale at Builth you'll find small, tough, BFL's in their working clothes straight off the hills going for very reasonable amounts compared to the big, showy types.
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Are you sure they aint Kerry Hill crosses? :excited:
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3 rams I would go for 1. Zwarble the most underrated breed out there! 2. Wiltshire horn small chunky strong lambs 3. Welsh ram the ewe lambs with me good replacements an texels will push there lambs out easy
I use zwarble X texel or zwarble X beltex ewes to a welsh ram not had to help a lamb be born yet and all lambs are in my freezer by 16-18 weeks
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Whilst a Zwartbles tup won't necessarily give small lambs I can also vouch that the feedback we have had from commercial buyers who use them has been really good for ease of lambing due to their conformation. One farmer since getting a Zwartbles tup has always used them on texel shearlings to give them a much easier first lambing. All the lambs on the first cross will be black, however if you keep crossbred ewes for breeding ( I am told they make good breeding ewes)and put them to a white tup you will get 50/50 ratio of white to black lambs.
Whilst Zwartbles are a relatively large breed there is a range of sizes and it should be possible to purchase a smaller tup, just generally the larger tup lambs are selected for breeding.
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Hi there
As a vet and long term lamber, I have seen a number of crosses to try and get the right size lambs.
As folks say, it is mostly the ewe and the feeding that determines singles/multiples, and it really will be conformation of the lambs that will help them lamb easier out of first-timers than anything else.
I knew one farm that lambed hoggs at a year old, these were texel cross ewes, and they were put to a Beulah tup, I've not seen many of these around, but I don't think we pulled a single lamb out of the hoggs that year, and they were all up and suckling like billy-oh!
Another farm I've worked on for 17 years uses British Milksheep and Lleyn tups on his gimmers (2 year olds as first time lambers) and the lambs generally pop out pretty easily also and are pretty nice lambs.
He often keeps some of these for breeding, and in their second and subsequent lambings they get suffolk or texel tups to cover them.
The Lleyns and milksheep tend to be prolific, so if you were looking to aim for more twins/triplets than singles, then if you kept some of these crosses they would likely do that for you.
Looks like you've got a lot of choices now, hope you find something that suits you :)
Suzanne
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The only problem with Beulah tups is you need good fences or all your neighbours will have Beulah X lambs too!
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Wow - what a choice. Thank you folks for some excellent ideas. If a Lleyn tup on a texel shearling gives easier lambing because the lambs are more "streamlined" that may be the answer because it fits in with our long term plan, having bought some Lleyn gimmers last year.
Saying all this we only have 7 Texel first timers (shearings) this year and all were flushed and fed the same. As my OP the first 2 had really big singles, but just lambed the third (at 4 am of course) - triplets! (2 live one dead). We did try to scan them but the bloke never turned up :-( and stopped answering his phone, bet he would have come if we had 600 ewes not 60 ;-)
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Hmm, strong fences indeed, my Beulah wanted one of the girls with the texel tup and he had half knocked a fence down before we went and knocked a few more stakes in, oh and moved him and his girls to a different field. He is a bit of a randy so and so. :eyelashes:
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;D does he have a brother?? ;D
Yes, but he's in the freezer. Or what we haven't, so far, eaten is! The 'rogexels' live up to their names, as tups, and make good eating as well. For what more can one ask!