The Accidental Smallholder Forum
Growing => Fruit => Topic started by: RUSTYME on March 24, 2013, 07:07:03 pm
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I will miss the boat , so to speak , this year , but i want to start an orchard with old variety fruit .
Apples , pears , plums , gages , damsons , mirabelles , cherry , apricot , medlar , mulberry b+w , plus some nut trees .
The problem is i have no money, well very little anyway . So i am going to have to buy in rootstock and the scions , if it is possible to do the later ?
I was given a couple of cheapy lidle apple trees that grew well to about 10' or so but then one died and the other snapped at the graft point , what a waste of time .
So , instead of cheap bare root modern varieties , i thought do the job myself .
I can find £10 here and there so can do a few at a time if i can buy the scions of the old varieties .
My aim is to have about half an acre or so of fruit trees about 12'-15' tall .
I know the rootstock is available but are the scions ?
If i can do this i will grow in pots the first year or two , easier to keep away from rabbits etc .
Any suppliers of rootstock and scions known of , who will supply in small numbers ie 5-10 at a time ? Cheers Russ .
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Ok but what the heck are you going to do with half an acre of fruit trees. If you do not employ peopleto pick the fruit then I doubt you can gather, process and sell an acres worth of fruit. Sorry Rusty but one of each tree that you list is a headache for us and we often end up chucking fruit to the pigs. If you have no cash then how will you maintain and gather the fruit then sell it etc etc Our headache is c ollecting fruit jars or jam jars all year then processing the fruit and eating the stuff before the next crop.
I expect a robust reply but I do mean well Rusty and have just added a challlenging ( provoctative post) to hear what you plans are for a half acre orchard. Big smile !!
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Lol , no probs M , i have worked on an orchard fruit picking so know the work involved .
I won't do it all (planting) in one go , it will be over a time , a few trees one year , a few the next etc , no money lol .
Lots of family will help pick when needed , plus other plans a bit hush hush atm .
Basically though , i just want old variety fruit trees and i have the space so why not ?
As i say though , i will build up to half an acre a bit at a time .
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Ashridge trees seem to do root stocks: http://www.ashridgetrees.co.uk/Apple-Rootstock-Pear-Rootstock (http://www.ashridgetrees.co.uk/Apple-Rootstock-Pear-Rootstock) (and I'm sure they'd do low numbers - I've bought small numbers of trees from them) but I think scions are harder to get from what I understand - you'd need to find somebody with the tree to graft from. Wouldn't you be better getting a few decent trees established and then propagating from them?
You could get some good end-of-season offers at the moment and then at least you'll have a couple of trees to begin with which gives you time to plan your grafting. I got most of our fruit trees from Keepers nursery (here in Kent) and they've got some good deals on at the moment: http://www.keepers-nursery.co.uk/stockresults.aspx?listallonsale=1 (http://www.keepers-nursery.co.uk/stockresults.aspx?listallonsale=1) There are lots of one year maiden, heritage apples on there for £12 so by the time you've spent £3 on a root stock and then tracked down the scion, surely you're better off getting something that could be fruiting in a couple of years? Even if it's just two or three trees a year, these are great quality trees and much more likely to succeed and then you've got your own scions for later use.
I imagine you know this, but Mulberries will become big trees so they're not ideal for a traditional orchard. We've put ours in a stand alone position. I think they're also grown on their own root stock normally.
Also have a think about the apricots because they're hard to get cropping well in the open - even in the warmest parts of the UK. Normally grown on South facing walls.
H
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Yes i hear what you say H , but my idea was to have 10 different apple trees , or whatever , not just 1 or 2 varieties .
I hadn't seen any old variety ones for £12 though .
Even at that price i could only get one a year , this is the wrong time for me , £25 a bale of haylage etc.
The mulberry and some others , damson etc , would be elsewhere not in the orchard . I can put trees along 200 yard of track or along 300 yard x2 of river .
The scions were the thing i thought would be the problem .
The apricot would be just a one off give it a go type of thing anyway .
Apart from cost , the main problem is keeping the horses from eating the trees anyway , they ate 1500 willows to death ! lol .
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I'm not sure how 'old' your definition is but there are plenty on there going back to the early 1800s and some back to the 17th century (look at the various Pippins). But not sure whether it's the right root stock for you. Also not saying this is the best place to go (although in terms of quality of trees and supporting old varieties, they're v.good) but worth having a look around - there are lots of good offers on at the moment, desperate to promote business.
Of course it's going to cost you more but you also said you were going to build up gradually. So this is a way of getting a couple of trees in now and then you can save up for root stock and try and track down scions for the next ones. But yes, if you can't afford two trees now, that's it for this year.
As for 10 different apple trees, you're going to spend more than £20 on root stock alone. If yoiu're that tight for money, use the acreage for hay instead.
H
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1800's is old enough H .
I will check out the web site when i get my next lot of internet download .
Now is out of the question money wise and the area i will use for the fruit trees is too steep/rough for hay making , under bramble atm anyway . So next year will be more likely , but i like to work things out before hand . Thanks for the link though .
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There is a chap on YouTube who gives away scions, I think, when they're in season. Look for stephenhayesuk
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Thanks , but i can't watch youtube , only got very limited internet via an old mobile phone , that is even more limited by very poor , sporadic signal .
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Hi Russ these guyes are very passionata dn may be flexible - worth a call?? www.welshmountaincider.com (http://www.welshmountaincider.com) (they do other fruit!!)
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We bought from Adam's Apples to start our 1/2 acre orchard:
http://www.talatonplants.co.uk/ (http://www.talatonplants.co.uk/)
We paid £7 per tree, but did have the benefit of a bulk order. All very good quality, and doing well despite the weather since we planted.
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Rusty, im in fife
I still have 100 pyrus communis rootstock, where are you? if you come round next week i'll let you have them at cost price, 98p, and ill give you the scion material and will even show you how to graft if you want.
i only have pears, all heritage varieties, have a look at the threads in this section and check out my blog site
http://denmylne.wordpress.com/about/ (http://denmylne.wordpress.com/about/)
By the way, I saw a remark about getting jam jars. Hint, I spoke with the local recycle center in Lady bank and asked them for a specific type of jar, standard jam jar etc. I asked for 300. and left them a marked up box. I expected to come back in a couple of weeks to collect. They phoned me 3.5 hrs later and asked me to collect. Buying new jam jar lids in bulk reduced the price to 10p each, and because I had targeted a specific type of jar I was able to ensure they fitted and the continuity of shape. This can be done with bottles as well. You then still need to clean and sterilise them but it is a cheap alternative.
Consider a Vega pasturiser for apple juice, the plastic 1 ltr juice bottles cost 38p each (new)when bought in bulk
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Rusty
re- poor internet access
http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/how-to-make-a-wifi-antenna-out-of-a-pringles-can-nb/ (http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/how-to-make-a-wifi-antenna-out-of-a-pringles-can-nb/)
I can pick up any number routers at over 10 miles away with this from a tent.
PS empty pringles tubes cost nothing
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"Ok but what the heck are you going to do with half an acre of fruit trees?"
Mak, if one grows full standards, they can be used as wind breaks, timber and firewood. I would plant them around the edge of a field and use the field for other purposes. ps. newly cut pear wood, plunged in water turns black and can be used as an ebony substitute. Because it is so hard, wheelwrights used it for pins/dowling. roofers/tilers also used it instead of nails :)
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Roman author Pliny the Elder penned a “Natural History” about 79 A.D., he described 41 varieties varying in colour, texture, flavour, season and keeping qualities. He mentioned that Crustumian or Volemum (Winter Bon Chrétien) was the nicest variety. He tells us that many of the sorts were called after the countries from which they came, such as the Syrian, the Alexandrian, the Numidian, and the Grecian. Thus he mentions Pira Nardina, a pear with the scent of nard (Spikenard perfume) and the Pira Onynchina, ( Cuisse madame) a pear of the colour of the finger nail, These last are evidently Greek.
The Greeks possessed a pear named Onychinon, for the colour of its skin, which reminded them of the colour of nails or onyx. A type of agate which resemples the luster of pearls. We can see that such a pear is a long way from resembling the cuisse-madame, whose olive green skin changes to brown/red on the side facing the sun. However, some French experts thought they had found this old greek pear, onychinon, Jacques Daléchamp thought this,( Historia generalis plantarum,Vol I, book III, Chap VII From 1586) and after him, Couverchel (Traité des fruits) and Prévost in his (Pomologie)have until now (1867) repeated this belief.
Jean-Baptiste De la Quintinie (1626-1688) the head of the French royal gardens at Versailles, wrote prolifically on pears and devoted a whole chapter to the Winter Bon Chrétien and said it is the same pear as that which the Romans called Crustumium or Volemum.
I have many scions of both the bon chretian and the cuisse madame and the longueville, the last 2 now extinct in france. Is that old enough for you ?
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Facinating - I thik that you know your pears! I love to eat them and always slip away to the "Pear and apple man" at our big monthly market. I am not very good with names but the best one I had last autumn was large and very round with deep flesh, pink to aubergine skin colour and quite scenty.
Anyway - I would love to grow more of them as a hobby but we are still plodding thru the Pear Jam we made 3 years ago.
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"Ok but what the heck are you going to do with half an acre of fruit trees?"
Mak, if one grows full standards, they can be used as wind breaks, timber and firewood. I would plant them around the edge of a field and use the field for other purposes. ps. newly cut pear wood, plunged in water turns black and can be used as an ebony substitute. Because it is so hard, wheelwrights used it for pins/dowling. roofers/tilers also used it instead of nails :)
really. thank you. (again)
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Cheers Denm , but i am in west wales , no transport , and fife is a bit far to walk . Thanks anyway .
At the moment , i am completely broke anyway
, i have stepped off the money go round , off the system . This is fine most of the time , but gets a bit difficult when you want to do something like this .
The wi fi thing would probably be good but there are problems .
Firstly , the website describing how to make the antenna out of a pringles tube won't load on my mobile phone , just locks the phone , memory full !
The other problem , i don't eat pringles ! lol .
I already have trees and hedges around my fields , but have each side of the river is available , as is one side of the track . In all about 700-800 yards . However , the horses will eat anything they can fit in their mouths .
So i will have to section off 1/4 - 1/2 an acre at first and plant larger pot grown trees next to the river and track .
Fitting things in is a nightmare regarding season , horses , weather , my physical ability and last but by no means least , money .
I will get there though , mind you , it might be daisies i am pushing up from below instead .
Will go and read the other threads and if it loads , your blog . Thanks again , thanks Dan and Fib too for the links , they loaded ok .
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mak
for large amounts of pears................juice them and turn them into Perry, pear cider. Napoleon's favourite drink
Rusty
PM me mate, and I'll post you you down the tops of the pyrus communis rootstock I have here. If you stick them in the ground, next year the will have formed roots and you can then graft onto them any type of pear you want. I would suggest looking around your local environment and select cuttings from the best pears which grow near you, I can also send you scion material next year if you want.
Gerard, 1587, "growing fruit trees costs nothing"
pears are a form of Rosaceae, ie a rose, and as such wild pears are covered in long thorns for about the first 15 years of life.It helps keep the animals off, grafting is a form of cloning so determining the age of any fruit tree is fraught with problems. eg all bramley apples are scions of of one tree in an old ladies garden in england, so technically, if you have a bramley apple tree in your garden, it is already 150 years only, even if you only planted it 2 weeks ago. (this is why the fruit trees you buy in aldis etc, dont have thorns. I have mentioned before on these blogs, that the most important part of any fruit tree is the rootstock, the sooner you get the rootstock growing, the better chance your grafts have of taking.
Another idea is to try encourage a small side shoot from near the base of any fruit tree you have, prefereably below the graft, and cut a small piece of twig from the ends of one of the main branches and graft it onto this small side shoot. Allow the branch to thicken over time but keep it small. If the main tree starts to canker or is damaged or becomes sick, cut it down, and you will already have a replacement. :)
by the way, you can graft pears on to hawthorn, whitethorn, quince, whitebeam (check and see if you have any of these already growing along the edges of your fields) and I have also read that you can graft onto apple trees, but cannot as yet confirm this.....yet